Likely letter thread!

<p>well Ericp IMO there are two ways to think about this.
If a university truly believes that diversity will create a better environment for all then I see nothing wrong with recruitment of minorities.
The problem however, is that many universities are finding ways to practice affirmative acceptance because of a desire to achieve diversity not so much to provide a better environment for all but to level the playing field for minorities.
There have been a few studies on the true(if there are any) benefits to a diverse environment. I think that colleges would do better if they could establish a clear and direct correlation between diversity and overall student success. IMO affirmative action acceptance has no place on college campuses.
Before we all bow to the “diversity is good therefore we need to do whatever is necessary to achieve it” we need to understand what we want to accomplish.</p>

<p>Sorry this is off topic, but the likely letters sent to minorities are sure to rub some people the wrong way.</p>

<p>what do you mean by “you are not even a citizen of this country”? Just because I was born somewhere else, and my parents came to the states with nothing hoping that they could give me more, I don’t deserve an equally fair chance to get into a good college in the US as well? My parents pay taxes (and I don’t get access to a significant proportion of national scholarships) , I have perfect scores, I’m overrepresented.</p>

<p>ericp: I could not agree with you more, i am in the same exact situation as your kids. were a middle income white american family and i cant get **** because of that. we pay the taxes that provide scholarships (at public schools, at least) for the minorities that (many of them) dont pay taxes and are already receiving money from us in other places. Then, you go to a private school and find that your admission chances take about a 70% dive because of the fact that your white. Welcome to America, the country that tries to deny its socialism. PS aznjunior: your lucky to even live in this county, stop complaining about unfavorable college acceptance chances.</p>

<p>@mentorhockey22
I’m not complaining about college acceptance chances. I’m saying that its not just white middle class people. Affirmative action is just something everyone has to live with, and I was just trying to give an example that other people suffer too.</p>

<p>Mentorhockey22- You’re an idiot. Sorry, but if America were actually socialist, there would be no affirmative action: everyone would be equal. There also would not be excellent universities like Duke, because that would create unequal opportunities for students who were rejected, so there would only be public universities. </p>

<p>Also, aznjunior has been nothing but humble, and you and ericp are just bashing him/her. There’s no need for that.</p>

<p>One’s chances of acceptance do not increase that much by virtue of one being URM (I believe a study showed that being African-American, to take one example, gives one a +5% chance of acceptance at highly selective institutions). Take m y c h a n c e s . n e t with a grain of salt. </p>

<p>As well, precisely because your kids have 4.0’s and 36 ACTs doesn’t necessarily mean that they are superior to anyone else. If one looks at the data collegeboard publishes, there is a direct correlation between one’s income level and one’s SAT score (meaning that a high SAT score coming from a student in an affluent family is regarded as being less impressive than one coming from a student in a relatively poor family). As well, some schools simply do not prepare students as well for these standardized assessments which leads to a school’s average being considerably lower than not only the national average but most likely the average of your kids’ schools. As a result, on an absolute scale, your kids’ scores may be higher and more impressive, but once one considers a student in the context of his/her surrounding environment, a 2200 from a poor neighborhood is sometimes more impressive than a 2400 from an affluent neighborhood(they’re both in the top one percentile of scores anyways…It isn’t like there’s some considerable difference between a 2200 and a 2400 anyways). Since (on average) there are more URMs under the poverty level than Asians/whites, it seems logical, given the correlation between SAT scores and income level (and the aforementioned statement in this sentence), that the average URM (even the average URM at universities like Duke) would have lower SAT scores than the average white/Asian. When the difference is almost negligible, within range, (the Harvard Dean of Admissions says that a difference of 50-100 points on the SAT means nothing), and context are taken into account, there is not much of a difference between the SAT scores of URMs compared to those of white/Asian students. Remember, these things are only meant to be somewhat (and NOT wholly, various intangibles, grades/course rigor, and context MUST be taken into account in order for one to be able to paint the whole picture) representative of future academic potential and academic performance and that, on an absolute scale, they are absolute meaningless, while they are meaningful on a relative scale. They are attempting to figure out the ‘intrinsic’ person, or, basically, how the applicant would be and act if s/he were removed from his/her current environment and given the resources and environment of Duke. </p>

<p>One must also consider the fact that numbers are precisely numbers (and nothing more). They’re not necessarily indicative of much past a certain point and institutions such as Duke are beginning to realize this. While they still are rather important in weeding out strong applicants from weak ones, one should not feel any sense of superiority by virtue of the fact that one has gotten a score that is a few points higher than another person on the SAT/ACT. Each person that has received a likely letter seems as though s/he deserves one by virtue of things beyond their statistics and, while I thought I might be able to be selected as an AB Duke Finalist, I’m not enraged at Duke for not selecting me as a finalist. I’m an applicant to their university, and I am not entitled to anything from them by virtue of my past accomplishments (It is their university, after all. It would be a great honor if they would allow me to enroll there next year, but, again, it is not something that I am entitled to be able to do or have.). Since they’re given such a talented applicant pool, they have the ability to pick out their incoming class and diversity at a university is an institutional need (without it, it would somewhat negate the desirability of the university). As well, given the psychological fact that when one feels wanted by someone/thing, one is more inclined to be attracted to this person/thing (though one does not necessarily become attracted to the person/thing, there is simply a greater probability that one will - someone correct me on this if I’m wrong because I have a feeling that I am), then, since they send out likely letters to minority candidates that will ultimately be admitted, the minority candidates may feel more wanted by the university and more inclined to attend. Given this, they can assume that the yield of these candidates will be (at least somewhat) higher than that of the overall yield of accepted students and, therefore, can accept less of these candidates in order to fulfill the institutional need of diversity. Given that they have an ideal incoming freshmen class size and the fact that they are actually accepting less minority candidates to fulfill the institutional need of diversity (because their yield is higher) than if they didn’t send the likely letters and have the cultural activities/weekends, then they are actually increasing the chances of the unhooked candidate being admitted (and it also reduces the boost one gets in virtue of being a URM).</p>

<p>My logic may seem ambiguous on that point, so hopefully an example will suffice to prove my point. Assume that the yield without the likely letters was projected to be ~50% and that, hypothetically, they accepted 100 out of 1000 applicants, meaning that they hope that 50 out of the 100 will ultimately attend Duke. Assume, hypothetically, that, ideally, they want roughly 10% of the incoming class to be African American. Assume, again hypothetically, that the yield of African Americans that likely letters are sent to is roughly 60% while the yield of African Americans that likely letters are not sent to is roughly 50%. So, if likely letters are not sent to these candidates, then out of the 100 accepted students, in order to meet the institutional need, they will have to send 10 acceptance letters to African Americans (10% of those admitted). On the other hand, if they send likely letters to highly desirable African American candidates, they will only have to accept 8 or 9 of these students, meaning that they can accept more unhooked candidates (meaning that an unhooked candidate will have a greater chance of being admitted) and still have their ideal freshmen class.</p>

<p>As well, these are only LIKELY letters (that actually help enhance the chances that your kids get in. As another argument for it, I would highly doubt that they would send out likely letters if their yield was not higher for kids that received likely letters - and these kids, when at Duke, told them that the likely letter was a big factor in their coming to Duke not only because they felt wanted, but because they had more time to especially look at Duke AND ONLY DUKE because, well, Duke was the only one that told them that they were allowed to enroll next year). Your kids have not gotten rejected yet. In fact, they have a good chance at getting some good news come decision time given their academic accomplishments. As well, please do not feel as though you have some sense of entitlement and do not degrade the accomplishments of the people who are minorities that have received likely letters. I hate it when people on here degrade people who are URMs and claim that s/he only got admitted to a university because s/he was a minority. Surely they might have been admitted to fulfill an institutional need, but they wouldn’t have been admitted period if they weren’t outstanding candidates. They’re outstanding people who simply had something extra that they could add to the general environment of the university - just like the journalist, the violinist, the political activist, etc.). And, before you say that they didn’t earn or work for the thing they will add to the environment of the university (as well, they add much more than simply being URM’s on campus, otherwise they wouldn’t have gotten admitted!), remember that every talent one has is, to some extent, a contingency. It is not the violinist’s fault that s/he has not yet had his/her cut off in some freak accident, just as it is not the fault of the URM candidate that they were born a URM. Their situations are not ones that exist by logical and metaphysical necessity and neither can claim to be wholly responsible for their existences (one would, generally, arise as a different person if one were raised in a different environment). The situations are, to put it precisely, exactly the same. The only difference is that the people such as eric only conceive that one’s being a URM is inherently undeserved and unfair in the college admissions process but they never look at the roots of their beliefs and see that what initiated their beliefs against one issue can actually be used to contradict certain beliefs that they hold to be true. In other words, people such as eric come into the argument with an inherent subjective bias and therefore their reasoning gets skewed in favor of their presupposed conclusions.</p>

<p>To all those who received the minority likely letters (and to those that are AB Duke Semifinalists), be proud of yourselves. You are all extremely accomplished and extremely intelligent; you’re all going to do great things with yourselves if you continue in the same manner that you’ve conducted yourselves hitherto and don’t let anyone attempt to bring you down by telling you that you don’t truly deserve what you got because you’re an under-represented minority. I can wholeheartedly say that I am envious of you all and wish that I was even somewhat close to being as intelligent and accomplished as you all.</p>

<p>Haha ericp and mentorhockey are one of those types that probably belong to the idiotic tea party or go, “Oh no! Obama’s destroying the country,” even though he’s doing everything he said he’d do on the campaign.</p>

<p>Also, if you want to bring up not belonging in a country, why don’t we bring up how white Americans like you were the ones that implemented slavery or lured immigrants to America with the promise of the “American Dream,” but ended up implementing eugenics programs or forcing them into menial jobs? Oh lets not forget wiping out ENTIRE populations of Native Americans who were there before you and forcing them into small camps where they wouldn’t have access to any of the oppurtunities that “middle income white Americans” enjoy. </p>

<p>Wow! You guys are so great! You get brownie points for all that stuff you’ve done!</p>

<p>Mentorhockey22- Your comments are absolutely toxic. All the minority likely letters indicate that these students are within the stats for Duke and therefore well qualified. Higher stats do no mean “better qualified” nor that some one is a more desirable candidate. If anything you should be railing against Duke for under-qualified athletes and legacies that take the place of more deserving students. Duke is notorious for these kinds of admissions. However, this is life, like it or not. Focus only on what is within your control and let go of the rest.</p>

<p>Quite frankly, any admissions officer that was aware of your ramblings wouldn’t have to think twice about a rejection letter regardless of your test scores and EC’s</p>

<p>I agree with the last three post before mine! I couldn’t have posted better. </p>

<p>and menotorhockey22, in case you haven’t noticed EVERYONE pays taxes, i.e. sales taxes, etc, so please don’t say that minorities don’t pay taxes because that offends me! Think before you speak/write!</p>

<p>ericp45694 and mentorhockey22; have you considered boycotting scools that consider gender, race, and ethnicity, and limiting applications to schools that consider “merit” alone? </p>

<p>It might please you to know that many of the minority kids who got Duke likely letters went elsewhere.</p>

<p>BTW, I’m Black, and I pay more in taxes than most people earn in a year, maybe two.</p>

<p>To EricP and whatever other racist and ignorant parents/students that are posting on this forum:</p>

<p>Just because a school hosts a diversity weekend for under-represented minorities, does NOT mean that that is the only qualification that got those students into said school. Schools like Duke and other universities solely have these weekends to foster a spirit of community amongst said URM students because as the term suggests, we are “UNDER-REPRESENTED MINORITIES”, meaning that there are less of us, making it harder for us to find people who we are similar to in such a large academic setting.</p>

<p>I know that I have worked my ass off for my education. I am in the top percentile of my graduating class, I have a 4.0, and am a National Merit Finalist - and no, none of that was handed to me because I am part of a minority. So, if Duke has any particular interest in me, that is from me putting in time and effort into my academic career, extracurriculars, and application - not an act of discrimination because I’m African-American.</p>

<p>And to mentorhockey: My parents pay taxes too…you’re not special. And I didn’t apply for Financial Aid because my parents can afford my college education. Not all URM students are bumming off your tax money or scholarships…</p>

<p>whatever any of you say, race is considered in admissions. end of story. every year, better qualified kids who are white get rejected in favor of people who are URMs simply becuase they are URMs and current american politics make schools want to seem “diverse”. you cannot say anything to refute this because it is a simple fact. on a somewhat unrelated note, go to the ohio state university website and look at the list of merit scholarships. look closely, and you will notice that requirements are lower for minorities than for whites to receive the same types of scholarships. if thats not unfair, idk what else to call it. before i bow out - i mean no disrespect to the many individual members of minority groups who are great people. im saying that everyone should be equal. sadly, in the college admissions process, they are not. i dont expect to be treated better because im white, and so i wouldnt expect minorities to get preferential treatment because theyre minorities. i expect everyone to be considered equal, with race completely aside. isnt that what everyone wants so badly?</p>

<p>^So… go to a UC. No affirmative action and lots of my tax dollars!</p>

<p>FWIW, the reason URM’s get the letters is because everybody is scrambling for the same FEW kids.</p>

<p>oh and to the dude who wrote a book above this ^^^ theres no way im ever reading that so i hope you spent a fun two hours writing it</p>

<p>shrinkrap: haha maybe i should. btw, im not a racist, i take everyone at face value. in other words, yes, there are many things that could make me dislike a black or person. but i would dislike a white person with the same qualities just as much. in the same way, i respect black people who are like you just as much as i do white people who are the same.</p>

<p>I think I understand. It’s all good. BTW, just like…</p>

<p>“change your race from white to black or latino, and watch your chances take at least a 50% rise (usually more) at the most selective schools.”</p>

<p>You could also be born, change your race from White or Asian to Black, and watch your chances of graduating high school, going to college, or surviving your 55th birthday drop by 50 percent!</p>

<p>Mentor - While I may not entirely disagree with your opinion on the nature of affirmative action in college admissions(only on this platform do I disagree with the policy), I feel a strong urge to take a stand against what you’ve said.</p>

<p>Your sweeping generalizations are disgusting - completely unfounded and seem to be a response to something you were not a part of in the first place…since you’re not a minority-why worry about minority likely letters?</p>

<p>Your ramblings reference a difference in test score requirements for students of color - think about why those differences are there. There is no conspiracy theory that American politicians dont want whites getting into college - affirmative action is rather a policy that seeks to provide equality of opportunity for all. </p>

<p>It has been proven that socioeconomic status effects academic performance (and thus equality of academic opportunity) across the country. Fortunately (for the policy), the socioeconomically disadvantaged are disproportionately filled with minorities, and in a way, affirmative action compensates for the discrepancies in performance. However, my gripe with affirmative action is that teachers and schools are not discriminating against minorities and causing academic discrepancies - academic discrepancies are caused by socioeconomic factors and should thus be compensated for by socioeconomic measures - not racial ones.</p>

<p>Hypothetical Example: My african-american neighbor who attends the same high school as me gains many extra benefits (scholarships, better financial aid, competitive advantage in selective admissions) in the admissions process because of his ethnicity. This, I think is extremely unfair.</p>

<p>Keep it clean fellas…</p>

<p>Hockeymentor, I hope you’re well aware of a phenomenon in the Western world called “white privelage.”</p>

<p>Google it. I think you’ll find the results pretty profound and how it ends up that Whites recieve more benefits than other people just because of their skin tone. Educational oppurtunities, employment, and economics. Even politics. </p>

<p>But maybe you’re just another redneck with nothing better to do and unaware of anything outside the small town where you and your hillbilly friends like burning crosses in front of black churches. Am I hitting a sour note there? Yes? Good.</p>

<p>i was just reading this thread and saw something that someone else said, and responded.</p>

<p>Whew, guys! My goodness!</p>

<p>Anyhow, I’m not trying to spark anything, but DOES Duke send likely letters to white applicants? I’ll stop checking my mailbox if they don’t. :]</p>