My D1 picked her safety. It gave her good merit aid, and she liked it as well as her higher ranked choices. She graduated Phi Beta Kappa and got a great job after graduation. She really liked her experience. I’d suggest for ANY kid that they go to an accepted student visit if possible at their top 2-3 choices, and sit in on couple of classes if possible (especially if they didn’t sit in on classes when attending before). I’d just encourage her to keep an open mind until after those visit.
My D2 changed her mind after accepted student visits. Her distant 3rd place preference (mom’s pick on her admissions list) shot to the top after visiting her top 3 final schools. I left her alone after visits for a few days to mull it over. She came downstairs one day and announced her choice, and never looked back. So those visits can be very helpful for a kid to get a little deeper look before they decide. But in the end, your kid is the one who is attending. You need to respect that if they have taken a good look and the school is affordable.
I agree with all that this seems to fit her academic needs. In many cases, “average” ACT points doesn’t tell anywhere near the full story- I’d want to know the range, look at the CDS and see where she falls. If solidly in the top, she’ll also have that group and its influences.
In addition to what others suggested, I’d be looking at how much it may be a commuter school, what activities of what sorts are offered, including lectures, clubs, other, that aspect of her social scene for four years.
@SuburbMom Your Dd sounds like my dd’s twin! She is fluent in French and a B1 in Russian. She wants to continue studying both French and Russian in college, but we have a very limited budget and it controls everything. Combine being at college graduation level for many colleges (she had the same conversation as your Dd at multiple schools…“I think you’ll be able to find what you are looking for at other schools”), Russian, and a limited budget, and the list of possible schools is very, very tiny.
My dd’s focus has been on the depts. Depts that have direct relationships with study abroad universities and are willing to work with her at her level have been her filter. Unfortunately for her, nowhere near 40-100 students per yr declare Russian as a major. That is an incredible opportunity for your Dd. Some universities only have a handful of majors at the 300-400 level.
Our daughter actually eliminated one university that had a grad level program bc they did not have a study abroad option that would necessarily transfer back credits. They mentioned just doing summer abroad instead. That automatically made her dismiss their program bc she has goals of advanced-mid/high and knows that study abroad is the only way to achieve them. (Schools that were dismissive of advanced language objectives were nixed. All the ones on her list have assured her they will support her pursuits however they can.)
Good luck to your daughter. We have been through the college search process multiple times and finding colleges for foreign languages has been absolutely nothing like finding schools for our older kids’ interests. There seems to be no standardization at all and the differences between programs can be significant. It sounds like your Dd has researched her options and has found a school that fits her goals. That is huge. Really.
What is the test score range of the upper quartile of the school?
The average score doesn’t really tell you what your child’s classmates will be like, particularly if she’s in challenging majors.
It’s not as if those “average ACT kids” are spread out amongst every major. They’re not. Some may start in challenging majors, but many will likely soon change to less-demanding majors (less writing, less math/science, less academic).
The top quartile at the school will largely be found in about 15 majors…Eng’g, Math, Chem, Physics, English, The Classics, French, Finance/Econ, Philosophy, and some other academic majors.
Both of my kids went to their safeties. Both graduated Summa Cum Laude. Both were challenged because they were in very challenging majors…Math and Chemical Eng’g. Their univ has a strong upper quartile, so their classmates were strong, but the school has a rather modest “average ACT”.
This is an interesting post. My D was offered really great merit aid at several colleges, and one of those nearly became her final choice. When it came to making a decision, this is what was important to her:
She wanted to be in a college with students that she felt were on the same level academically and intellectually as she is. She worked very hard to do well in high school and wanted to be with other students who also worked hard.
She did not want to stand out as being academically stronger than many other students. She is shy and didn't want to be noticed. She also felt that there might be a weird dynamic created if students found out she was there with a lot of merit. The thought of awkwardness and feeling that maybe (even if untrue) she might be "smarter" than many of the other kids was very uncomfortable to her.
She did a ton of research to see how students regarded their professors because she didn't want to be in a college with boring classes taught by boring profs.
She did not choose the college that offered merit aid. She has ended up at a college in which her test scores are above the 75th percentile, and her high school GPA was average. I think this has been very successful for her, as she had a great first semester. I believe that she is at a college where, if she pushes herself a little, she will be able to be a big fish in a small pond. I suspect if that happens, it will be by accident rather than design.
I am well aware that we are very fortunate to pay the full tuition at her college, and I feel it is the right place for her. I think that if she had gone to the college with merit aid, it would probably have been fine, but I also think that she would have possibly become a bit bored or unsettled and begin resenting, as your title says, the undermatch. This is a problem with her, by the way, and I do think it very much depends on your child.
Our D actively chose a school where she would be in the top 5%. It had certain advantages such as good merit aid but mostly it just fit what she wanted to study, the atmosphere and vibe she wanted, the size and given that she wants to be a Physical Therapist being a bigger academic fish was a plus for her. The university also has a DPT program and they do give favor to their top students (she asked). After one semester she really likes it. She is attempting a dual degree so she’s not bored and being a top student keeps her motivated. She had other options where she would have been closer to average but still in the top 25% but wanted to go to her chosen school. She did not apply to any reaches. There really weren’t any that fit her criteria for size, proximity, and specific education requirements. She is hoping that her status as a top student will allow her to work with faculty to seek opportunities to reach her goals in her chosen field.
@Lindagaf I totally agree with your DD’s #1 criteria. the problem arises when you cannot afford that option. You correctly identified that you are very fortunate to have the ability to send your DD to the school she chose. For many Americans, a lower cost CC is all that is possible. That is where the “undermatch” happens.
@mom2collegekids Sorry if my other post seemed out of place. I was responding to the feeling of being undermatched and attending a school populated by kids that are not as academically motivated as your child. All this talk of percentile is great and everything but unfortunately it comes down to cost in the end. All this fancy research into colleges will mean nothing if you cannot afford to attend those schools you so diligently researched.
I agree with @Mom2aphysicsgeek that in your D’s case the department is the most important, since not every college will have the same opportunities regarding her chosen languages.
I also suggest that you look at the common data set for other information. GPA may be a more useful indicator as standardized test scores also can reflect socioeconomic status. Particularly if the school in question is a large public, some of the statistics regarding average test scores and graduation rates may be more a reflection of a less affluent student body with fewer opportunities and guidance and less about the students’ intelligence or drive.
An Honors Program can also be a means for your child to find her intellectually like-minded peers.
Honestly, this sounds like a very good fit for your D with respect to her academic interests, particularly the study abroad element. If it is also affordable, even better!
Like @romanigypsyeyes I attended my large impersonal flagship for reasons of cost. It is much better ranked now than it was then. I did well, made good friends, got to know my professors, and had my pick of selective graduate programs, many with full funding packages. I did participate in the honors program and it was wonderful, but that became increasingly less relevant after my sophomore year. By the time your D gets to upper-division courses, most of the students will be self-selecting and want to be there. Sounds like your D has a lot of AP credit so she will probably be able to bypass some gen ed courses and dive into more advanced work. And if she does end up in a required large lecture course from time to time, it’s not the end of the world. One of my favorite undergrad courses enrolled several hundred students. The quality of my classmates was irrelevant because I had virtually no contact with them in a big lecture hall. The professor was riveting.
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This is an interesting post. My D was offered really great merit aid at several colleges, and one of those nearly became her final choice. When it came to making a decision, this is what was important to her:
She wanted to be in a college with students that she felt were on the same level academically and intellectually as she is. She worked very hard to do well in high school and wanted to be with other students who also worked hard.
She did not want to stand out as being academically stronger than many other students. She is shy and didn't want to be noticed. She also felt that there might be a weird dynamic created if students found out she was there with a lot of merit. The thought of awkwardness and feeling that maybe (even if untrue) she might be "smarter" than many of the other kids was very uncomfortable to her.
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This sounds like my older son…shy, not wanting to be noticed for being smart. Hated that attention during K-12 years.
He did go to a univ with nearly a free ride as a NMF. But…he wouldn’t use the special backpack the school included in their big merit pkg because he didn’t want others knowing he was there on big merit. He didn’t want anyone else to feel strange or say anything about that.
He, too, also didn’t want to be the smartest in the class, and he wanted to surrounded by smart students. Luckily, his school’s upper quartile has high test scores (the top 40% of the school has an ACT 30+, so the upper quartile is probably around ACT 32+).
Luckily, as a math major, his classmates were like him. No one survives being a math major without being smart…lol.
The truth is…who cares if students across the campus is other majors are “less smart” (don’t meant that to sound as bad as it does). Really, who cares? That’s like caring that some other school down the street has "average students. He (and my other son) were in the STEM quadrant of the school which is filled with students like them.
@mom2collegekids , it might matter more at small LACs, which are the colleges I am referring to. If she had been at a bigger university, I agree it would probably not be as much of an issue. But she is 18, and she cares about it now, at the type of college she chose to attend.
for starters never use the term under match. it is elitist at best.
unless the biology class skips the fact that humans have lungs and heart , i am confused what you think a “higher” ranked school has to offer…like they perhaps teach about a secret organ in the body only elite students and schools know about?
look for the fit that is best for the student…100x variables or more and the gut feeling the future student gets when visiting the school. …the best match is the school for them whether it is ranked number 1 number 22 or number 449.
D1 didn’t want to be the smartest, stated she wanted to be challenged by kids ahead of her. BUT, her feelings and decisions were all about her major, a not commonly offered subset of history.
We didn’t even look at stats of others. We looked for the availability of courses, what the profs’ own research interests and avtivities were. And then the misc opportunities.
Our flagship didn’t have her specific major. And had she reverted to “history,” in general, yes, she would be working with kids who slid into the school.
But it seems OP’s dau is happy with her major at that college. Sure looks like a win.
@SuburbMom please don’t put a lot of weight on test scores. For one, test scores are not indicative of a student’s academic ability in the classroom. I have been teaching at a private university for 15 years and guess what? I see many students come in with outstanding test scores that struggle in our program and students that come in with low test scores that are stellar students and go on to great grad schools and law schools on full scholarship. Additionally, better test scores do not always equate to better instruction. Let’s take a huge Big 10 school with a mean ACT of 32 and a private college with a mean ACT of 29. What is the teacher to student ratio? What is the percentage of Professor to student instruction v. TA student instruction? Which gives the better opportunity for experiential learning? 30,000 students or 6,000? What weight does the school give to well-roundedness of its students? Diversity? What is the schools priority? Maintaining a stellar science program or making sure it wins the Big East? What is important to your prospective student? College has in many ways taken the place of high school meaning that many students (majority) are just breaking free from their helicopter parents and learning how to function on their own and make decisions for themselves. What environment will your prospective student thrive in while undergoing this experience? Isn’t that more important? And… last but not least, what exactly is “under matched”? GPAs and class rank are all relative to the high school attended and the location of that particular high school - clearly, a student in one small private high school could rank in at 30 out of 100 and if placed in a large public in a different local might easily rank in at 1 out of 350. So, geographically, where is the school pulling it’s student population? Under matched in terms of test scores and GPA is in my opinion, meaningless as that info in and of itself in no way makes a statement that the kids are somehow “dumber” or “less academic” Under matched in terms of programs offered, campus amenities, class size, student/professor ratio and post-grad school or employment is another discussion.
As a professor who has taught at 5 different universities over the decades, I do think academic peers matter significantly. Certainly honors classes or a demanding major might mitigate the more basic curriculum and slower pace, but the abilities and preparations of the students affect what can be taught. In a classroom at said college, I would need to teach the types of things and skills that would be covered in 10 ACT points. The students’ reading skills would necessitate a slower pace, fewer primary documents, more textbook summary. The overall mathematical background (and perhaps disinterest) would change the nature of introductory physics, for example.
If it was my child, I would play it out until May, hoping she commits to a stronger program.
Seems like the program is strong (with advanced offerings in an uncommon foreign language), but the school overall or its general student population is what the OP is questioning.
Agree. It sounds like it is a program probably similar to Ole Miss’s criticial language flagship in Chinese. I think they are also working on getting one in Arabic. You can’t get any stronger of a language program than a language flagship. If it is a program like that, I personally wouldnt be concerned about the avg SAT score of the university as a whole. If the student has also been accepted into a program like Croft, that would make it even that better of a fit.
I am one who is a very strong proponent of going to a school where the student will be with like-talented kids (the idea that all “Bio 101” or Stats or English Lit courses are identical is farcical to me-- I taught at a mediocre college one semester and by necessity had to teach to the middle 1/3 of the class, who were far less talented than the couple kids at the top. I felt very sorry for those top kids)
But this particular program seems like a different animal altogether. The language program seems unlikely to be full of kids taking those courses because they “have to.”