making Community College transfer students miserable

Parents Forum
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<p>from the Washington Post</p>

<p>
[quote]
"Universities are just expert in playing this game that says, 'Well, sure, you completed English composition, but you didn't take my class,' and sort of cheating students out of transfer credits by insisting that they retake essentially the same classes," said Kay McClenney, a professor at the Community College Leadership Program at the University of Texas at Austin.</p>

<p>Rodriguez takes this system apart piece by piece, showing the bad rules and unexamined assumptions that deny students their dreams. She persuaded one admissions director to reveal there is little incentive for universities to seek great transfer students from community colleges because, unlike freshmen enrolling directly out of high school, the transfers don't count toward an institution's graduation rate, ACT or SAT average or retention rate -- important statistics that get their schools ranked in U.S. News & World Report or other college lists.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>washingtonpost.com</a> -"Community College Transfer Mess"</p>

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<p>I wonder how colleges treat community college classes taken by kids while in high school and who enroll as freshmen.</p>

<p>Thanks for posting this link. Very informative.</p>

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<p>That's odd that a professor from Texas made this statement. Here we have a common course numbering system. If you take English 1301 at a cc, you will receive credit for English 104 at state universities....no questions asked. I'm sure lots of states have something similar.</p>

4

<p>zmom, I believe it is fairly common that dual credit courses appearing on your high school transcript count for nada, zip, null. D's school - 24 hours bye-bye.</p>

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<p>No one should ever ASSUME that any 4 year college will accept their credits either from a CC or another 4 year college.
Same way with AP Tests - some colleges won't accept credits or place restrictions - i.e. will accept credit for AP Chem unless you intend to use it as part of your major.</p>

<p>IMO - any good CC will have a transfer department that will work closely with students to pick classes and give information. Many colleges have agreements with CC's. If my kid was going to a CC I would have them pick a school with an agreement.
Being proactive can save loads of time and money.</p>

<p>Dual credit - our high school offers if - we pay $110/credit to our CC. However the HS pays for the AP test. Taking an AP course is less "risky"!
One student did go to an Ivy league college and they did accept his dual enrollement CC credit.</p>

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<p>I think the Texas prof is just commenting, adding two cents to the research done for the article. (I agree, from what I have read, the Texas system of transferring from a Texas cc to a Texas state college appears to be hassle-free, and Kentucky should take note.)</p>

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<p>The dual enrollment program at D's school is run through a private university. About 90% of colleges do accept the credits, and that includes many elite & ivy schools. But we were told that because these schools have accepted the credits in the past, we can't assume that policy will remain intact. I understand NYU no longer will do so. The cost per three credit course was $200, & the odds looked pretty favorable, so I wrote the check. We'll see if it's just another black hole that swallows my money.</p>

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<p>"zmom, I believe it is fairly common that dual credit courses appearing on your high school transcript count for nada, zip, null. D's school - 24 hours bye-bye."</p>

<p>What does dual credit mean? She took these classes at the local CUNY because she was interested. They don't show up on her high school transcript at all because the high school has nothing to do with it. We will definitely contact CUNY if she decides to apply to Hunter, though, because you'd think that classes in the same system would at least count for placement?</p>

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<p>Dual enrollment is a college level course offered at one's high school, taught by h.s. faculty with curriculum & text following exactly the same course taught at the college campus. It can fulfill a h.s. graduation requirement as well as be eligible for college credit. The grade is incorporated into the student's h.s. GPA. A nominal fee is charged by the college if one intends to use the course for college credit. The caveat: In some instances, colleges do not award credit for courses taught on a h.s. campus. As most kids don't know with certaintly where they'll be attending college, the $$ may be wasted.</p>

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<p>Some universities won't give credit for dual-credit courses (college credit courses which also appear on your h.s. transcript). For instance, I know that Rice won't accept them. Most public universities accept them, though, and the private university our S will be attending accepts them, too.</p>

<p>
[quote]
What does dual credit mean? She took these classes at the local CUNY because she was interested.

[/quote]

Zmom, a dual-credit course is one that is taken at a college (usually a cc) and for which a high school credit is earned as well as a college credit. For instance, if the student took college algebra dual-credit at the cc, the h.s. would award him one math credit, so it might fulfill his requirement for a certain number of math credits in h.s. </p>

<p>Even with a lot of dual-credit courses (S has about 40 credits), the student would still be considered a freshman for admission purposes. After he is admitted, he submits his cc transcript and the college credits are evaluated by the university to determine which ones, if any, they will apply towards his degree.</p>

<p>Were the classes your D took at CUNY credit classes? If so, how was she admitted since she was still in h.s.? Most cc's have early admission, but that is typically after you've graduated from h.s. In any case, if they are credit classes, they might count for credit or at least for placement, like you said.</p>

<p>Many of S's classes won't count towards his degree. He took college algebra, finite math, and business calculus because we required him to do that for h.s. (S is home schooled). He only needs one math course for his degree at the univ. In fact, I'm not sure college algebra would have even met the university's math requirement, but the business calculus will, so we're good. Also, he took 2 semesters of Spanish dual-credit. His university doesn't require any freshman level language classes, but they do require you to take a 200 level language class. So, S should be ready for that class. Essentially, those 2 Spanish classes are helping him with placement.</p>

<p>Where we live, the dual-credit courses are taken at the cc along with the other college students. We also pay the same tuition and fees that other college students pay. Public schooled students are allowed to attend for free <grrrr>. In a neighboring district, all dual-credit students receive 1/2 price tuition.</grrrr></p>

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<p>Ohhhh. Thank you StickerShock. I didn't even know about that. Neither of my girls' schools offered that. ZS classes are regular classes with college kids and not part of her transcript at high school. She's enrolled as a non-matriculating student at the CUNY. How does it work with the awarding of credit? Does someone at the college chosen to attend meet with the student to discuss CC/AP/IB credits after enrolling?</p>

<p>Response for timely: with certain PSAT/SAT/ACT scores students can take classes as non-matriculating students even though they're still in high school.</p>

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<p>Zmom, I would ask the cc if they will issue a transcript for those classes since she is non-matriculating. If they will, then you can send that on to the university and see what they say.</p>

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<p>"Zmom, I would ask the cc if they will issue a transcript for those classes since she is non-matriculating. If they will, then you can send that on to the university and see what they say."</p>

<p>I know they will because they forwarded her transcript to a summer fellowship she applied for. She exists on their system and can pull up her transcript, grades, and upcoming classes. She has the login/password and campus email in the same way as other students, both matriculating and non-matriculating.
I'm not so much interested in her getting credit as placement. We learned with her sister that in a college with a lot of core requirements, it can be a pain to have to do all the pre-reqs, also, before getting into the major.</p>

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<p>I also understand that transferring community college credits from one state to another can be especially problematic. I know of a student who completed his Associate's degree, and then decided to attend an OOS four year school. The admissions person gave him verbal assurances (!) that all of his credits would transfer. It wasn't until he arrived on campus that he discovered that the college would only accept about 1 year's worth of credits, so what he thought would be two years and out, turned into a three year stay. Admittedly, the student should have requested something in writing about how many credits would officially transfer, but I doubt that's on the radar of most teens.</p>

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<p>I agree with justamomof4 that no one should ever assume that their credits will transfer. The quality of CC courses probably varies widely. I know that my S told me that the dual credit courses offered at his school were significantly easier than AP courses when an equivalent course was offered (i.e. AP english lit is a lot harder than dual credit english lit). I think colleges might recognize this and may not want to offer credit for CC english lit because they know that the english lit at their institution is more rigorous. A Rice Admissions officer told us that they view dual credit from a CC as an honors level course and not as rigorous as an AP. This has been true in our experience. Some states like TX may have a system in place to transfer cc credits easily, but not every state or school may make it so easy.</p>

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<p>Feel lucky if you live in California (and move here if you don't):
Welcome</a> to ASSIST</p>

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<p>Zoosermom, I'm pretty sure the courses your D took will be handled in the same way as any trandfer student's credits. Plenty of colleges offer university level courses for high achieving high school students & maintain the students' transcripts just as they do for matriculated students.</p>

<p>It sounds as if there may be a distinction in many college's eyes between dual enrollment offered through a uiniversity and through a community college. Last year I know of a student who had our h.s. dual enrollment course credits accepted by Vanderbilt. It will be up to the individual college, of course. But the word at D's h.s. is that the credits are widely accepted. No promises are made, but I wouldn't make the assumption that dual enrollment will be any less valuable than APs. Before writing the check, get the list of colleges that have accepted these credits in the past & call to find if the policy has changed at those that are being considered.</p>

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<p>Dual enrollment is a college level course offered at one's high school, taught by h.s. faculty with curriculum & text following exactly the same course taught at the college campus. It can fulfill a h.s. graduation requirement as well as be eligible for college credit. The grade is incorporated into the student's h.s. GPA.</p>

<p>That's correct for us , too except it is CC faculty teaching every dual credit course at the high school. As to CC courses being easier than AP well............ I guess just depends. At D's school it was certainly not that way. The Dual Credit courses were a good bit better both in material covered and excellence of the instructors.</p>

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<p>It appears that Rice has the same rule as Rhodes. Here are the criteria from their site :
[quote]
What criteria must be met for college work completed during high school to be considered for transfer?
Each course must not have been used to meet high school graduation requirements and must not appear on your high school transcript. Additionally, each course must have been:</p>

<p>taken on the college campus
taught by regular members of the college faculty
taken together with students at the college
part of the normal curriculum of the college

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Scratch that , check this little jewel out. LOL.
[quote]
Because of the admission competition to enter Rice, successful
applicants generally have taken 20 or more college preparatory courses
in high school, many at the college level. Therefore, only those students
who have more than 20 college preparatory courses may have the registrar
consider for Rice credit their college courses taken in high school.
Transfer of Coursework Taken During High School—College-level courses
taken during high school years may be considered for credit at Rice University
on receipt of the following documentation:
1. An official transcript of all college courses sent directly from the college(s)
attended. College-level courses that appear on the high school transcript
will not yield credits at Rice.
2. From each college attended, official verification that all courses were taken
on the college campus, were taken together with students at that college,
were taught by regular members of the college faculty, and were a part of
the normal curriculum of the college.
3. Official notification by letter from the high school principal or guidance
counselor that the credit earned was not used to meet high school
diploma requirements.

[/quote]
Had to dig a little deeper. That's going to catch somebody. :eek:</p>

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<p>D encountered a variation of the "no transfer credit" rule. She took a course through the flagship state university that should have satisfied a requirement for her major. Nope. "We'll give you college credits for the course, but not for having fulfilled the requirement for your major." Huh? Fortunately that decision didn't impede her academic progress, so ....</p>