Marie Claire Magazine: "Revolution on Sorority Row"

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Alabama
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<p>Three - “Have been following this thread and understand the frustration of UA and how difficult it is to overcome perception when every small step back undoes giant steps forward. However, regarding sensitivity to confederate symbols, I wanted to give another perspective from the wife of a southern white guy who graduated from Ole Miss in the 70’s and a member of the fraternity that participated in Old South (or Ole South?). He has a picture of himself in full confederate uniform atop (is that a word?) a white horse along with his fraternity brothers. The cheerleaders would throw thousands of confederate battle flags into the stands for the students to wave at every home game. He said you just saw things differently when you are raised in the south, at least in MS and TN, in the 50’s and 60’s and didn’t see anything wrong with any of that, at that time. He thought everyone was too sensitive and this was about southern history, yada yadda yadda. It was easier to go with the flow, not make waves, and have fun. Fast forward 20 years and he was quite vocal to friends and family praising Ole Miss for banning the confederate flag and is embarrassed about all the confederate symbols that were such a big part of his college years because they reflect absolutely nothing good. Individuals have the right to display them but I can’t imagine what point of pride they are displaying - slavery, segregation, treason…is that something to be proud of? The civil war was not about state’s rights - that was marketing used to deflect the slavery issue – the war was about slavery, the economics of slavery. Thoughts from another southern white guy.” </p>

<p>I wouldn’t support UA flying the CSA flag either, but that doesn’t mean I support restricting others to fly it. And I am sorry, I disagree with you about the main cause of the war. I have explained why I think the way I do, and so far, all I get in response is that “everyone knows the war was over slavery.” I am highly educated, and simply disagree with this common myth. The victors always write the history. But just in case you care to respond, please do explain why slavery was still legal in NJ till 1865, and why did Lincoln propose, in his inaugural address, to guarantee that slavery would be forever legal in the South, as long as the South did not secede? Do answer these questions. </p>

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<p>Oldmom= “What? You mean a college-age person did something impulsive and extremely stupid? I never heard of such a thing!” Of course they do stupid things, but that doesn’t mean we know her caption was intentional. I have never heard anyone disparage Blacks with the soft variation of the n word. If they are going to use it in a hateful way, they use the one with “er” at the end. </p>

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<p>Pizzagirl - “UA’s Greek system is currently no less integrated than most others around the nation.”</p>

<p>Try again. I attended a northern university with a significant Greek presence and was an active member in a “top” sorority 30 years ago. During my time there, we had a black president the year after I graduated, a Hispanic president another year, girls of all ethnicities and no one thought twice. During rush, the race of a potential new member was NOT mentioned in the least, and we would have looked sideways at someone who suggested that a black girl shouldn’t be treated identically to every other girl going through. At the same time, my husband’s fraternity, which had a historical religious affiliation, had a black president and several members of ethnicities other than white. It was no big deal and no one thought twice about it. It was of no more interest than knowing that we had members from NJ and members from California.</p>

<p>That’s how normal people go about things.</p>

<p>I will grant that many black girls choose not to go through rush, or only choose to look at the historically black houses (which is understandable), but really, even 30 years ago it was not notable if a black girl joined a house.</p>

<p>So, please. You’re talking about a culture that is so behind the times where girls are saying “but my parents will make me quit if a black girl joins the house” or “OMG, the ‘good’ frats won’t want to rush if we have a black girl.” Don’t EVEN pretend that there is any comparison between normal Greek life and this nonsense.</p>

<p>BTW, I applaud the girls who are standing up for what’s right and making a difference and saying that they won’t put up with this, that they want to choose their friends and that this is 2014 not 1954." </p>

<p>I would like to know the names of these schools, and the actual breakdown of minority members. Don’t just highlight who was chapter president, etc. Did these schools have as high a percentage of AAs as UA? And again, if UA is so toxic for Blacks, why do so many Blacks go there? Also, there may be class differences that help to explain the traditionally lower numbers of AA involvement in Southern Greek systems. The avg. income of White is still much higher than that for AAs, and Greek membership is quite expensive. And with so many historically AA Greek chapters at UA, is it really reasonable to expect many Black women to pledge traditionally White sororities. By the way, the president of the SDT sorority is Black. UA elected its first Black SGA prez in the 70s. Just thought you should hear some positives about UA. </p>

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<p>Lucie the Lake </p>

<p>“I have no idea what the two African-Americans invited to pledge Chi Omega look like, but maybe they were acceptable to her in a way that others might not be. Maybe she thought they were members of a different URM group. Are we really going to debate this?” You seem to want to debate this. All I have done is offer possibilities of innocence. That doesn’t make me a racist. </p>

<p>I have explained it several times here, but you guys almost seem to WANT this girl to be guilty.</p>

<p>“@Atltanta68, I would love for it to have all been a mistake. But your argument that “all kids” use the term “ni**a” routinely has not been my experience at all. I’ve never heard my kids or ANY of their friends use that term. They listen to music and watch movies and television shows where it’s used, but they know better than to risk being misunderstood by using that term. You’re arguing that this young woman likely uses the term SO OFTEN that HER OWN auto-correct software would change a word found in every dictionary (“ninja”) and replace it with a slang term derived from an ethnic slur.” I never said ALL young people use it. But I have heard many, both Black and White use it. And its in countless rap songs. Madonna recently got flack for using to describe her White son and his pack of friends. And if she really meant to be hateful, she would have used the hard variation. I have never heard anyone condemn Blacks with the soft n word. Never!</p>

<p>"And even if she DID intend to type the word “ninja,” a lot of people would have found that pretty insulting too. It would essentially be celebrating that no ‘undesirables’ made their way into her sorority:</p>

<p><a href=“Urban Dictionary: Sorority”>Urban Dictionary: Sorority; ninja" I can’t disagree with that. But so what? That is not what we are arguing about. </p>

<p>“Or is there another word you think she meant to type? And do you believe her original post was auto-corrected or Photoshopped or both?” I don’t know. I never said I did. I only stated that these were possibilities, and so far, no one has shown me why they know for a fact that either possibility is false. </p>

<p>“Also, just for the record, I do NOT think she should be expelled from the university if she did in fact use that word. She should be required to explain herself and apologize. She’s already suffered plenty from what I can tell, although I don’t believe she’s made any kind of public statement in her own defense. Do you think she should?” If she really did intentionally use that ugly phrase, yes, I would expel her! But I want her to have a fair trial in Student Affairs. Even if it ends up with her confessing, I would still be glad that I took up for her right to a fair trial. Perhaps UA could offer the possibility of readmittal after a year away. But, no, I would want severe punishment. </p>

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<p>Jcrsmom - “Atlanta68, suppose for just a second that you sent an email to superiors at your place of employment with the same caption, intentional or not. What would the reaction be?” I am sure my superiors would be horrified, But I would hope I would get a fair hearing. </p>

<p>“Personally, I honestly, believe that this young woman’s intent was not to be hurtful and malicious, but that she was trying to be funny to people she trusted on social media, but like, ALL other young adults used some incredibly bad judgement.” Well, you seem to agree with me then. You obviously sense what I do. I don’t think it was ok for her to have the soft variation on her phone, but I don’t think it is hateful, and merits expulsion. </p>

<p>“I am confident that UA (and it’s legal team) did their due diligence prior to sending an email to all enrolled students, I am confident that Chi O did their due diligence before removing this young woman, I don’t tend to get my trusted news from a site called ‘Total Frat Move’ and even if I did…they have since said that even they admit the original image was the one that was sent.” I have never in the past relied on "totalfratmove.com. I just want the rest of the media to stop this witch hunt, and offer the girl an opportunity to tell her story. </p>

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<p>“UA has one of the highest percentages of African Americans in the nation. If the environment was so racist, why are so many of them going there”</p>

<p>Uh, because it’s a state flagship in a state with a high AA population. </p>

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<p>@Atlanta68 - Well, I guess I’m medium educated as I only have my BBA from a regionally ranked school in Texas, however, I have read and watched a lot of documentaries over the years (some fact some supposition) to form my opinion… You are correct in one sense. The Civil War wasn’t about slavery on the Union side, it was about the what the Union felt was treason by the southern states for seceding, however, there was nothing in the constitution prohibiting them from legally doing so. Some believe that Lincoln baited the South into firing on the supply ships heading to Ft. Sumter – once they fired, they became an armed rebellion – that, President Lincoln could do something about. There have been published writings believing the secession might have succeeded if the South had not inserted military aggression. I don’t believe Lincoln was pro or anti-slavery as he began his national political career, he was pro-law.</p>

<p>Regarding why the South fought in the civil war, it was economics based on free slave labor bringing huge profits to the large cotton plantations. What is sad is that the large plantations represented such a small number of the southern population yet it the little independent southern farm family that did not own slaves who were convinced to fight for their rights as property owners. You can call it state’s rights but it was all about to have the right to make huge profits off the ownership of human beings as property. Amazing how the limited and vocal wealthy can convince the masses of not so wealthy to do what they want – invite them into the club, make them feel special….still works today. </p>

<p>Regarding why slavery was still legal in NJ in 1865 – I have no idea, didn’t know it was. However, if it was, it was likely profit (greed) based. Maybe you can tell me why?</p>

<p>BTW, Georgia didn’t ratify the 19th amendment until 1970, however, women were voting in Georgia long before that. Some things just come slow in the South. </p>

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<p>But she’s also making the case that, because AA people tend to come from a lower socio-economic status than whites, the barrier to entry is partly due simply to lack of resources. So it’s not like all these girls are DYING to get into the white sororities and the only reason they can’t is economic.</p>

<p>I would also like to time travel 30 years back with you to see the post-racial nirvana you seem to have experienced at NU. I certainly don’t recall it being like that. I don’t remember many URMs besides football players. Not a lot of girls.</p>

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<p>Atlanta, </p>

<p>Whether or not you agree with the fact our society now errs on the side of political correctness. In my life time (and I’m not <em>that</em> old), it was OK for men to hang pictures of scantily dressed women on their office walls, it was OK for bosses to hit on their secretaries, it was OK to use racial or ethnic humor in public environments, including professional environments. Now even as a woman, I’m mandated to take an annual course on sexual harassment. THE TIMES HAVE CHANGED! </p>

<p>None of those actions were ever intended to be malicious or hurtful, but they were to some and we just didn’t pay attendtion to those we were offending until they started to speak up and take action. After lawsuit after lawsuit environments changed so that people should now have a new understanding of what is appropriate.</p>

<p>I certainly have the right to forward an ethnic joke to my friends and they may find it humorous. I certainly have the right to forward an ethnic joke to all of my co-workers, but if I offend even one person and my employer fears legal reprecussions then I will have to face the consequences of those actions even if there was no hurtful or malicious intent.</p>

<p>I followed this story pretty closely for a few days and now am following it less, but as far as I am aware, there has never been any mention of this young woman being expelled from the school. Personally I don’t think that is even being considered and think it is absurb if it is even being discussed. As my son is a student there, I know MANY students who have done FAR, FAR worse than what this young woman did and are still welcome as students.</p>

<p>However being expelled from the sorority is a different matter. They can choose whatever rules and code of conduct they want for their members, so long as it is implemented fairly and equally. Every year the young girls who choose to go through rush are warned to ‘scrub’ their social media for any thing that might be offensive because the GLOs ARE looking and they have an image they want to maintain. If you appear to not fit into the image they want to maintain, then they will not welcome you as a member.</p>

<p>Personally I really don’t get why this is even still a story, although I know our nation has a short attention span and it will soon fade as something else noteworthy takes it place. But the bottom line is a young woman used bad judgement (I DO trust that Chi O and the University gave her the opportuntiy to speak on her own behalf and defend herself before taking action even if we as a nation were not privvy to those conversations), she was removed from a social group (SHE’LL SURVIVE WITHOUT BEING A MEMBER OF A GLO, EVEN AT BAMA! - THE MAJORITY OF STUDENTS DO SO JUST FINE), she learned a lesson in appropriateness and to THINK before she posts on social media. Her removal from Chi O has little impact on anyone but herself (and it will save her parents some $). The world is going to keep on spinning. </p>

<p>The fact is a number of girls may have been dropped from rush for not meeting standards - for not having the grades or for not fitting a certain image. But for those dropped before bid day, it is not a story because we don’t know the rhyme or reason. There may have been girls dropped for far less, but we’re not leaping to their defense. The fact of the matter is this GLO does not think this young woman fits their standards and she was asked to leave. Why is that still a story???</p>

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<p>“I would also like to time travel 30 years back with you to see the post-racial nirvana you seem to have experienced at NU. I certainly don’t recall it being like that. I don’t remember many URMs besides football players. Not a lot of girls.”</p>

<p>I didn’t say it was post-racial nirvana in the least. I agree that relatively few black girls went through rush in the first place. But what I <em>am</em> saying is that there were no “institutional barriers” in the sorority. We absolutely never commented on a girl’s race or other physical characteristics, other than identifying her (“who is Sally, I don’t remember her?” “oh, she has short dark curly hair and wore a blue shirt and sat to the right of Suzie”). Either we liked a girl and wanted to get to know her better, or we didn’t. There weren’t any uber-considerations if a black girl went through about “gosh, what does it mean for our house if we pledge a black girl” any more than if a girl was an art history major or from Montana. The fact that these places still have these uber-considerations is the problem – that the <em>concept</em> of pledging a black girl needs to be thought about, discussed, approved, or that there would be “implications.”</p>

<p>I’m not going to name specific names to make Atlanta68 happy. Either my soph or jr year (not remembering which), our chapter president was Hispanic - “looked” Hispanic, had a Hispanic last name, had a younger sister in the house. The year after I graduated, our chapter president was African American. I can go look at my old pictures and I see girls who were of Indian descent, Asian descent, etc. Not a lot of black girls – but that wasn’t due to any categorical rejection of black girls qua black girls, just not a lot of them went through the system. There was a black girl in my pledge class. That wasn’t even remotely notable - she was our friend and that was that, and no one thought for a moment that “OMG-Sigma-Chi-won’t-want-to-have-an-exchange-with-us.” </p>

<p>No one says the north is perfect. But there are differences of degree, and it’s annoying when really egregious things are defended by saying “the north isn’t perfect either.”</p>

<p>The northern systems aren’t perfect, but there’s a HUGE difference between “not a lot of black girls go through, but when they are, they are treated just as fairly” and “OMG! do you think we should pledge a black girl? What will other people think??” There is racism in the north - Archie Bunker didn’t want his daughter marrying a black man, but he didn’t think black people should be relegated to the back of the bus or have separate water fountains. I don’t know why there is such resistance to the idea that the south is behind in this matter, and the fact that there is still such noteworthiness about a black girl in a sorority in Alabama is evidence of that. </p>

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<p>

What, you want an award, because you finally did something this year that you should have done decades ago, and only did because of monstrously bad PR last year when a few brave women broke through the wall of silence? It’s like expecting to be congratulated for no longer beating your wife.</p>

<p>Also, don’t you think that pointing the finger at other schools is kind of kindergarten-y?</p>

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<p>What is the deal with The Machine at UA?</p>

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<p>:What, you want an award, because you finally did something this year that you should have done decades ago, and only did because of monstrously bad PR last year when a few brave women broke through the wall of silence? It’s like expecting to be congratulated for no longer beating your wife."</p>

<p>Thank you, Hunt! It’s like being proud of yourself because you decided to let a black person sit in the front of the bus, and not understanding why everyone else isn’t patting you on the back. </p>

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<p>@oldmom4896 Just google “the Machine Alabama” and you’ll find more than you’ll ever want to know.</p>

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<p>A book could be written about The Machine, but this recent piece is pretty informative in general (and relatively brief):</p>

<p><a href=“"The Machine" at Alabama is real. And its reach is long (John Archibald) - al.com”>"The Machine" at Alabama is real. And its reach is long (John Archibald) - al.com;

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<p>I have been reading this thread for the last day and there are a lot of statements made I have opinions about, but I think I will remain silent on them at least for now.</p>

<p>But one statement I just can’t let pass was this

First of all, I doubt they called it a swastika. More to the point, it meant something completely different to them. It is an ancient symbol with many variations that got co-opted by the Nazis.

And further down

</p>

<p>So in relation to the confederate flag, it would be more like saying that if the flag of Sweden happened to be the bars and stars, should they stop using it? Of course not, and it is a ridiculous example. The stars and bars never represented anything other than the Confederacy, to the best of my knowledge, other than being incorporated into some state flags, where the intention to also represent the Confederacy is obvious.</p>

<p>I could say more, but it isn’t what the thread is about. I just wanted to point out how misleading that statement seemed to me. The Confederates didn’t co-opt the symbolism of someone else.</p>

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<p>Just for clarification and not to extend the thread - the stars and bars was the first flag of the confederacy and I don’t ever recall seeing it displayed outside a historical setting. I am assuming all discussions on this thread referencing the confederate flag is referring to the confederate battle flag or “southern cross” which is the big X with stars - that is what we usually associate with segregation. I’m not sure if many that carry the battle flag would even recognize the stars and bars - it looks a lot like the US flag in 1861 and I think that’s why they changed the battle flag.</p>

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<p>Does the Machine still have power at UA, in general and/or over Greek life there?</p>

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<p>^^^ My son is now in his 3rd year as a non-Greek student and as far as I know “the Machine” has had extremely little to absolutely no impact on him at all. When I asked him about the election controversy last year, he unaware of the situtation responded, “We just tend to ignore the Greeks and let them do their own thing.”</p>

<p>Can’t speak for how much influence it still maintains over Greek life.</p>

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<p>Good clarification @threeofthree. Thanks!</p>