<p>Hi, I'm going to be a freshman at Penn this fall and my current major is bio (premed), although I am likely going to try for an internal transfer to Wharton because I feel that Bio + premed is rather repetative and Finance seems like something I would be interested in. Anyways, I'm trying to decide between Math 114 and Math 240 this fall. I have taken a Multivariable calculus course my junior year and have gotten a 5 on Calc BC my sophomore year. Mainly I'm trying to find an intro class at Penn that I would do well in (I haven't covered every topic in either 114 or 240 so I think taking either is fine by me). Mainly the deciding factor would be the quality and difficulty of each course itself. I did some research on Penn Course Review but pretty much all review for the professors seem to say that they are not very good and the course is very difficult. Math 114 professors: Pimsner, haglund, and powers. Math 240 professors: Shaneson, Gressman, Weber (who hasn't taught before). What do you guys recommend in terms of which course would be easier to do well in and which professors are best? Thanks!</p>
<p>None of the professors you listed for 114 are good. Some of my friends have taken courses with Gressman and seemed to like him but they are math majors so I don’t know he would be for something like 240.</p>
<p>OP has been away from mathematical analysis for a year. It would be best to take Math 116/260 (fall/spring) which will review all old sophomore calc BC topics and redo multivariate at a higher level. The Apostle books often used are some the best written math texts at any level. </p>
<p>Unless the OP is very interested in math, I would not recommend that sequence. It is completely proof based so someone who is not into would probably prefer a more computational course. That’s not to say they aren’t great courses.</p>
<p>Do you think that knowing 114 has any correlation to doing well in 240? I haven’t done any calculus for over a year so I am rusty to say the least, but I was under the impression that Linear Algebra/Diff Eq in 240 doesn’t even have anything to do with MVC and topics in 114. Is that true? I believe Gressman was the highest rated teacher on Penn Course Review of all 6 (although that isn’t saying much as all of the teachers were rated fairly poorly).</p>
<p>Definitely no Stoke’s, Green’s or Gauss’ theorem knowledge required. Decades ago MVC at Penn was taught during parts of two semesters after linear algebra and before ODE. It’s not inconceivable to take 240 before 114.</p>
<p>DD will be a freshman in the fall and is currently a CS major in SEAS. She got a 5 on BC calculus AP as a Junior, and took MV Calc as a Senior (got an A). SAT Math 2 subject test score was 790, SAT Reasoning math 800. She likes math, but is more interested in it as a tool, so I think a more computational class would be more interesting than proofs.</p>
<p>I think she should probably retake MV Calc this fall at the college level, and maybe Linear Algebra in the Spring term, but I am just guessing. What would you recommend?</p>
<p>I think it would be good for her to start in math 240 (ODEs, vector calculus, a bit of linear algebra) and then take Math 312. This is a more in depth linear algebra that would be useful to people in engineering or the physical science. I don’t think there is a need to retake MV Calc (most of which is done in 114, apart from vector calculus which is in 240) since it sounds like she knows it and 114 is also a very poorly taught class. Math 240 is usually poorly taught too (unless a good professor happens to be teaching that semester) but it sounds like it would be of more use to your daughter.</p>
<p>@Much2learn did your D take the incoming freshman math diagnostic test yet? I’m hoping that will make things clearer for my S as well, as to initial math placement. He is also a CS major. Is the diagnostic test new for this year? I don’t remember my D having to take it a couple of years ago. </p>
<p>“I think it would be good for her to start in math 240 (ODEs, vector calculus, a bit of linear algebra) and then take Math 312”</p>
<p>According to Penn’s Math Department web, 240 no longer contains ANY vector calculus effective Fall 2013. Stokes’, Green’s and Gauss’ theorems are now covered in Math 114.</p>
<p><a href=“Math 114”>http://www.math.upenn.edu/ugrad/calc/m114/</a></p>
<p><a href=“Math 240”>http://www.math.upenn.edu/ugrad/calc/m240/</a></p>
<p>Well that’s good they changed it, both courses were a mess when I took them three years ago. In that case I would recommend math 312, and depending on if your daughter is interested in a course on differential equations, math 420. Otherwise math 312 and math 240.</p>
<p>I heard math 103 has advanced combinatorics now</p>
<p>"@Much2learn did your D take the incoming freshman math diagnostic test yet? I’m hoping that will make things clearer for my S as well, as to initial math placement. He is also a CS major. Is the diagnostic test new for this year? I don’t remember my D having to take it a couple of years ago."</p>
<p>Reply
Yes, she scored just above average on the diagnostic. She felt that she did not do as well as she might have because the test covered single variable calc, pre-calc, and advanced algebra, but had no questions about the multi-variable calc that she learned this year. </p>
<p>I am trying to understand the Penn math sequence. The course descriptions did not clear it up entirely. </p>
<p>My understanding of the typical basic math sequence is:
- Single variable calculus A one year B/C calculus AP course in HS or a one-semester college course
- Multi-variable calculus A one year Honors course in HS or a one-semester college course
- Students would then take a course in Differential Equations and a separate course in Linear Algebra, in either order.</p>
<p>I think that translating Penn math speak to in my framework:
- Math 114 is an introduction to multi-variable calculus and differential equations
- Math 240 is the second half of multi-variable calculus and differential equations
- Math 312 is Linear Algebra
- There is no stand alone Differential Equations class.</p>
<p>Is that correct?</p>
<p>It sounds like, theoretically, could be feasible for DD to begin with any of these three courses. Ideally, I might suggest that she back up and work through all of these course in sequence, to enhance her depth of knowledge in these subjects before moving on. However, my impression from the comments in this thread is that these courses are very poorly taught, frustrating classes, with large amounts of homework, and the further back you go, the more frustrating and poorly taught they are. Therefore, backing up with the intent of building a strong mathematical foundation, may have the unintended effect of causing frustration and a dislike for a subject that she currently likes. </p>
<p>Is that accurate?</p>
<p>^No. The above characterizations are wrong and outdated. Math 114 is ALL of multivariable calculus including Stokes, Green’s and Gauss (divergence) theorems. <a href=“http://www.math.upenn.edu/ugrad/calc/m114/math114syllabus.pdf”>http://www.math.upenn.edu/ugrad/calc/m114/math114syllabus.pdf</a> Math 240 is 5 weeks of linear algebra and 8 weeks ODE. <a href=“http://www.math.upenn.edu/ugrad/calc/m240/math240syllabus.pdf”>http://www.math.upenn.edu/ugrad/calc/m240/math240syllabus.pdf</a> 312 is applied linear algebra but assumes 240. Math 420 is more ODE and required for math majors. It is too advanced for freshman as it requires more mathematical maturity. </p>
<p>Anyone who has had one year multivariable (vector) calculus after a 5 on the BC should take the Math 114 advanced placement exam given in the Fall. See <a href=“http://www.math.upenn.edu/ugrad/advising.html”>http://www.math.upenn.edu/ugrad/advising.html</a> I would advise studying for it. Old 114 final exams are available on the web. However, because of curricular changes made as of last year, the actual exam will now include all multivariable calculus topics. If credit is granted for 114, then take 240 or forfeit 114 credit and take the honors courses 116-260.</p>
<p>@ rhg3rd
“The above characterizations are wrong and outdated.”</p>
<p>Reply
LOL. Yes, I know I am outdated. I was hoping someone would update me. Thank you. :)</p>
<p>I think you are giving me excellent advice. She should take 114 unless she takes a couple of prior 114 finals and thinks it is easy. In that case, she could consider testing out. </p>
<p>She will already have a base level of understanding from her class this year, but she can just use that to her advantage and build on her depth of knowledge. That can only be a good thing.</p>
<p>I am sure that they will treat some subjects in more depth than she had before and the homework practice can only be helpful to enhance her understanding. </p>
<p>Hi. My issue is that I likely have forgotten most of my MVC but since I am only taking 1 math class at Penn, I am trying to decide between 114 and 240. I would likely not do very well on the Math 114 placement test without refreshing myself, but I do not see the point of doing so since I don’t need credit for it in the first place (is this required to place myself in 240 or is it just for credit?). I know that it is not inconceivable to take 240 before 114, but is it detrimental in any way considering I’ll have very low MVC knowledge during 240? So all in all, do you guys recomend 240 or 114?</p>
<p>@sdapkid</p>
<p>The real issue you are overlooking is that it’s been 2 years since you took single variable calculus. Math is a lot like a language: if you don’t use it you’ll lose it. So I’m wondering if you don’t need some sort of review of single variable calc too, because the ODE part of 240 will definitely require a good working knowledge of it. Did you take ODE or any math as a senior?</p>
<p>To answer your question, I don’t see having only a passing knowledge of MVC as being in any way detrimental to successes in 240 as per the current syllabus. 114 covers just the basics of linear algebra prior to embarking on a treatment of MVC. Thus, the very beginning of linear algebra in 240 may review or redo the rudiments from 114. The only other point at which anything from MVC or 114 comes into play in 240 is at the very end of the ODE part. The discussion of ODE solution stability, the phase plane and non-linear systems will use in some capacity directional derivative or gradient concepts - nothing too deep. So officially 114 is a prerequisite for 240, but I’m not certain what happens if you’re registered for 240 without 114 credit.</p>
<p>So again, I’d recommend doing some study and review to try to pass the 114 credit examination, largely because it will help you review calculus and a little linear algebra to be in good shape for 240. The other reason it would be beneficial to have 114 credit is that for Wharton and possibly biology (if interested in genetics), you need some statistics. It would make sense for someone with your math background to take Stat 430-431, where again math 114 is the prerequisite for Stat 430, instead of the 100-level stat courses.</p>
<p>Lastly, I think you are focusing too much on teaching reviews. It’s more likely that large class size, mediocre TA’s or other factors are the reason for profs getting poor reviews. If people didn’t like the course, the prof may have been only part of the reason. When I was at Penn, I bypassed the DRL math mob scene by taking a now defunct course Math 260-261 for AP freshman that was limited to 30 students per section. In your case, I think that 114 will be easier for you than 240, but you may not like it as well.</p>
<p>MIT OCW has video lectures as part of online math courses both on single and multivariable calc that you could use for review or to get motivated to take the 114 exam. These may be beneficial to @Much2learn 's DD as well.</p>
<p>Good luck!</p>