Medical School Acceptance Rate

sakky · February 20, 2005, 4:30pm

Well, I don't know about the contention that Michigan Medical favors its own. There are 3 countervailing factors that have to be extracted before you can say that.

<h1>1 - UM Medical is probably the most popular medical school for UM undergrads to apply to, just because it's local. So the fact that a lot of UM undergrads got into UM Medical may simply be a function of the fact that a massive number of them applied in the first place.</h1>

<h1>2 - UM undergrad is simply huge, and thereby generates a lot of premeds simply because of its sheer size. Keep in mind that UM has 26000 undergrads. Harvard has 6500. You would expect that a big school would get lots of people into a particular med-school if, for no other reason, it has lots of people to begin with.</h1>

<h1>3 - Michigan residency. The fact is, UM Medical gives admissions preference to Michigan state residents. A disproportionate number of UM undergrads are Michigan state residents and would therefore qualify for this preference. So when a lot of UM undergrads get into UM Medical, it may not have anything to do with any favoring of UM undergrads by UM medical as it has to do with UM Medical favoring Michigan state residents in general, and UM undergrad simply having lots of state residents.</h1>

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there is no favoring, I'm saying that these 3 factors have to properly accounted for before you can conclude that favoring is happening.

Alexandre · February 20, 2005, 5:00pm

Sakky, almost all professional programs favor their own undergrads. That is natural.

For example, last year, 50 Penn alumns got into Wharton. No other university had more than 30.

Check out those links:

<a href="http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php</a>

<a href="http://www.law.georgetown.edu/admissions/jd_profile.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.law.georgetown.edu/admissions/jd_profile.html</a>

<a href="http://www.law.virginia.edu/home2002/html/prospectives/class07.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.law.virginia.edu/home2002/html/prospectives/class07.htm</a>

As you can see, in all the cases above, the graduate program (state funded or private) in question favors their own undergrads heavily.

Clearly, Michigan is much large than Harvard. But a larger percentage of Harvard students are pre-med. At Michigan, roughly 10% of Michigan students are premed. Last year, only 550 of Michigan's 5,500 seniors applied to Medical school (400 got into a medical school). At Johns Hopkins, it is closer to 30%. At Harvard and Columbia, it is more like 20%.

sakky · February 20, 2005, 6:30pm

I have never disputed that private professional schools tend to favor their own undergrads. That's a well-known fact. What I question is whether public professional schools do the same. I seem to remember (and you may remember too) a certain scoring list that UCBerkeley's Boalt Hall used to 'correct' the GPA's of various undergrad programs for the purposes of admission. Basically, if you had a higher number on that list, your undergrad program was more favored. That link is now dead, but I distinctly remember that Berkeley's own undergrad program got a lower score on that list than all the Ivies, than MIT, and even Stanford (and this led california1600/west-side/rayray_222/californiapride to decry the supposed bias that Boalt had against its own undergrads in favor of the Ivy league).

And, again, regarding Virginia, I would contend that the same 3 factors that I explained earlier for UM Medical might easily explain all of supposed favoring that is happening at Virginia.

And finally, about your listings of the various percentages of premeds at various schools - do we really have to refight this battle again? As I have explained several times, there is a big difference between the 'official' and the 'unofficial' number of premeds at a school. The 'official' premeds are those who actually apply to med-school. But there are also many more 'unofficial' premeds who are basically students who would like to go to med-school, but don't apply because they know they can't get in.

That's what both I and Maize&Blue referred to. If you want to go to med-school, but you're just barely getting by with straight C's at Michigan, you're not going to apply to med-school because you know you won't get in. So you're not counted in the 'official' group of premeds. And as you know, Alexandre, there are plenty of students at Michigan who are just barely getting by. At most private schools like Harvard and Columbia, the grade inflation means that pretty much everybody who does the work is going to get at least a half-decent gpa. At Michigan, it's quite easy to get a poor gpa. Hence, the gap between the official and unofficial premed rates is far larger at Michigan than it is at most private schools. Basically, Michigan has a higher percentage of students who want to go to med-school but know they have no realistic chance of getting in than do most private schools.

Alexandre · February 21, 2005, 12:47am

Sakky, it is the case at any university that some students come in as Freshmen thinking they want to be doctors and then realize half way through that they are either not cut out for that much studying or that they simply are not interested in the field of medicine. My cousin is one such case. She was really interested in Medicine when she started at Michigan. After two years of studying herself to the bone, she had a 3.5 GPA and realized that the only she was going to ever become a doctor is if she stopped living. So she changed to Engineering, worked for Ford and is now getting her MBA at Kellogg. She would probably have made it into a decent Medical school (her second year GPA was 3.7 and she could have graduated with a 3.65 GPA at her rate of progess plus she aces standardized tests...she got a 34 on her ACT and a 760 on her GMAT). At Michigan, about 15%-20% (depends on the year) of incoming Freshmen list themselves as Premed. I would say roughly a quarter to a half of those students change their plans by their Junior year. I would say those numbers are the same at any major university.

As for State schools not favoritng their own, I do not see how you come up with that. Cal Berkeley is an exception rather than the rule. Obviously, you do not want your entire class to be made of your own undergrads, so naturally, you will cut off after a point. But Michigan Law usually likes 20%-25% of its class to be made up of Michigan undergrads. That has been the historic norm. The mean GPA and LSAT score for incoming Law students from the University of Michigan undergrad is not higher than the scores of their Ivy Counterparts enrolling at Michigan...so this leads me to believe that Michigan does not really favor the Ivies over Michigan undergrads. Why should it?

sakky · February 22, 2005, 4:10am

I was specifically referring to the other case that we both know happens a lot in terms of the premed melt. A lot of people come to a school, any school, hoping to get into medical school, and then get lousy grades. Happened to a guy I know. Came in to Berkeley talking about nothing other than getting into medical school. An extremely lousy freshman year's worth of grades quickly changed his mind. Not about being a doctor - he still wanted to go. But rather about the feasibility of getting into med-school.

The major difference between Michigan and Ivies like Harvard is that it is far easier to get really lousy grades at Michigan than it is at Harvard. I am sure you would agree that there is a greater percentage of students at Michigan whose grades are quite bad, compared to at Harvard. Hence, there is a larger percentage of students at Michigan who are effectively knocked out of the premed race at Michigan than at Harvard. At Harvard, if you do only 'average', you're getting a 3.4, which is not that good for getting into med-school, but you're still alive (if barely). If you're doing only average at Michigan, you must agree that you are in far worse shape.

Hence the numbers are not the same. Premed melt is significantly higher at a non-grade-inflated school like Michigan than it is at a grade-inflated school at Harvard. Like it or not, Harvard keeps a greater percentage of its students alive to apply to med-school than Michigan does.

Now, is Berkeley an exception to the rule? Then consider UCLA - whose professional schools' students' most prominent alma mater often times consists of not UCLA undergrads but rather, ahem, Berkeley undergraduates, an amazing feat considering that UCLA is bigger than Berkeley and that UCLA undergraduates would want to attend UCLA more than would Berkeley undergraduates if for no other reason than not having to move.

And like I said, the evidence that Michigan has lots of its undergraduates is not by itself evidence of favoritism because of the 3 factors I already named. You simply can't conclude one way or another. I don't know whether Michigan Law is really favoring its undergrads or whether it has to do with the fact that Michigan just has lots and lots of undergrads, of which most of them will be Michigan state residents, and many of whom will want to go to Michigan Law just because nobody likes to move if they don't have to.

Alexandre · February 22, 2005, 9:58am

Sakky, there are four reasons Michigan favors its own:

1) Michigan understands its system better than other systems. They know which classes are tough and which aren't. They know which prefessors are good and which aren't. And a Michigan professor is far less likely to recommend a student highly to Michigan unless she/he is actually excellent. As such, when they review a candidate from Michigan, they can truly evaluate them very effectively.

2) Michigan undergrads love their experience in Ann arbor and will often chose Michigan if accepted. Last year, roughly 70% Law students admitted into Michigan Law were also admitted into at least another the Big 7 Law schools (H,Y,S,Columbia, Chicago and NYU) and yet, more than 40% of those students still chose Michigan Law.

3) Michigan respects its undergrads as highly as any other undergraduates.

4) Michigan knows other schools do it, so they do it to so that their students have a level playing field. Let us face it, Harvard enrolls over 75 students into its Law schools annually. Wharton takes in 50 of its own annually. Etc...

The same can be said of any top 10 or top 15 university in the nation...save Cal-Berkeley aparently.

sakky · February 22, 2005, 11:35pm

And save UCLA too, apparently. Or perhaps you don't consider UCLA to be a top 15 school. But then again, if that's your criteria, then you would have to agree that in your top 15, there are probably only 2 or 3 public schools anyway (Virginia being the 3rd), so it's difficult to make a determination about what public schools do in general, when you only have a tiny sample size of public schools that you're looking at.

Furthermore, your 4 reasons are basically non-sequiturs to the topic at hand. Those reasons are 4 speculated reasons that UM MIGHT favor its own undergrads in the admissions process. You haven't shown that this favoring is in fact happening. We can both sit here and wax philosophic about why a certain school might be able to achieve a certain goal by doing this-and-that, but that has nothing to do with whether that school is in fact doing any of those things or whether they are in fact trying to achieve that goal.

Again, I would posit my 3 factors I listed before as reasons that go a long way to explaining why UM grad has lots of UM undergrads.

Now don't get me wrong. I am not saying that I know for sure that there is no favoring happening at UM. My take is that I do not know, and I have seen no evidence that can convince me that favorable treatment is happening, and not something to do with the 3 factors I mentioned before.

Alexandre · February 23, 2005, 12:02am

Sakky, it is always the case than many undergrads will apply to their own graduare school...I mean, Harvard Law takes in roughly 100 of its own each year. It is safe to assume that about 400 or so Harvard students will apply to their Law school. So 100 may seem like a lot, but when you consider that 400 applied, we are still talking about a 25% acceptance rate. So you can look at it from an absulte or a relative point of view, but in general, top graduate programs will favor their own.

golubb_u · February 28, 2005, 1:23pm

"As a percentage, today, roughly 60% of Michigan students who apply to med school get in. That's not bad when you consider other top schools like MIT, Chicago, Cornell and Northwestern are also in the 60%-75% range."

That's quite inaccurate. Top schools like Cornell/MIT/Stanford/Brown have 80%-85% acceptance rate into medical programs (with a GPA of 3.2 or above). Also, they send more students to top medical schools than any public school that I'm aware of.

Don't get me wrong, UMAA is a good school ....I just don't see any comparison to the Ivy or near-Ivy schools. If a student goes to UMAA, works really hard, and gets a good GPA/MCAT score, there is no reason why he shouldn't be successful in getting into a med school. Hard work is the key for many UMAA students.

Alexandre · February 28, 2005, 2:01pm

Golubb, it is a fact that Michigan sends more students to medical school than any other school in the country. That is not the case annually, but one average, Michigan sends more students to Law school and Medical school than any other university in the country. And not just any Medical and Law Schools. According to a WSJ study conducated last year, 160 Michigan students enrolled into top 5 Medical Schools, top 5 Law Schools and top 5 MBA programs. Only Harvard, Stanford, Yale and Princeton sent more. Even when you look at actual rates, Michigan is still impressive. 3% of Michigan's undergrads ended up at top 5 Medical Schools, top 5 Law Schools and top 5 MBAs. Only 6 or 7 universities had significantly higher rates. In relative terms (taking size into account), Michigan was ranked 18th among research universities and 1st (#1) among state universities. And that study seriously favored East Coast schools because 11 of the 15 programs used in the study were East Coast schools and they favor each other.

Secondly, in most cases, schools that report 80%+ medical school acceptance rates are giving averages of the last 5 or 10 years rather than the latest year. Michigan's medical school acceptance rate has hovered between 75% and 90% from 1990-2002. It is just in the last 2 years that it dipped below 70%. That's because Medical schools have become increasingly competitive over the last 3 or 4 years and Michigan does not discourage any student from applying to medical school.

As pre-med programs go, most top 10 universities (including Michigan) are not the best option. They are simply too tough academically. Most schools that have incredible medical school acceptance rates are not very good academically. Duke, Harvard, Stanford and Princeton are the exceptions.

And one more thing... I do not care what school you go to, a 3.2 GPA will not get a student into any medical program.

dstark · February 28, 2005, 2:06pm

If your freshman grades stink, are you done as far as medical school is concerned?
Med schools should give students a chance to get used to college.

sakky · February 28, 2005, 4:30pm

Alexandre, again, I have never disputed that private graduate schools tend to favor their own undergrads. And because of the fact that there are more private schools in the country than there are public schools, then one could say that 'in general', graduate schools, 'in general' tend to favor their own undergrads. That is not in dispute.

The dispute is whether UM, specifically, favors its own undergrads. To that, I would say that I don't know. The evidence that you have presented can be explained by the 3 factors I pointed out previously. Furthermore, I have presented 2 prominent public schools (UCLA and Berkeley) who do not favor their undergrads. Hence, the notion that UM favors its undergrads is still to me an unproven assertion.

Now, to Golubb_u, you want numbers? Here are numbers.

MIT's premed acceptance rate is 74%.

<a href="http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/preprof.html%5B/url%5D">http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/preprof.html</a>

Cornell's is 77%.

<a href="http://www.career.cornell.edu/HealthCareers/acceptedApplied.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.career.cornell.edu/HealthCareers/acceptedApplied.html</a>

I also have to agree with Alexandre - the data from the AAMC indicates that Michigan probably does send the most premeds into med-school than any other school in the country. Keep in mind that a lot of that has to do with simple size - UM has almost 25k undergrads, whereas MIT has 4k, Stanford and Brown have 6k, and Cornell has 14k. Hence, UM is going to get a lot of students into med-school, simply because UM is going to get lots of students in everywhere, simply because UM has lots and lots of students period.

Now to dstark - hey, med-school adcoms should do a lot of things. But they don't. Like it or not, grades (all grades) are extremely important when it comes to med-school admission. Might they give a break to somebody who screwed up their freshman year but then recovered? Yeah. But not much of a break. The fact of the matter is if your freshman grades are bad, that's going to hurt you.

barrons · February 28, 2005, 5:03pm

I would also guess that UM is trying to keep instate admits at around 50%. It stands to reason that the second largest and best school in the state would have many state residents as grads applying to the med school. It might not be favoritism at all.

golubb_u · February 28, 2005, 9:13pm

"Now, to Golubb_u, you want numbers? Here are numbers.
MIT's premed acceptance rate is 74%.
<a href="http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/preprof.html%5B/url%5D">http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/preprof.html</a>
Cornell's is 77%.
<a href="http://www.career.cornell.edu/Healt...tedApplied.html">http://www.career.cornell.edu/Healt...tedApplied.html</a>"

My numbers were also accurate (80-85% for GPA of 3.2 and above). Overall though, Cornell/MIT still have a big advantage. 77% vs 60% is a huge separation...at least one standard deviation.

Of course UMAA will have larger numbers of students going to med school. It's a huge public school will a huge number of students...but when looking at the percentages, the Ivy/MIT students have a big advantage. Also, the Ivy students tend to get into better med schools overall (top 10 etc.)

That said, UMAA is a good school. If UMAA students work really hard, there's no reason for them not to get into a top medical school.

sakky · March 1, 2005, 3:00am

[quote]
And one more thing... I do not care what school you go to, a 3.2 GPA will not get a student into any medical program.

[/quote]

Actually, if you absolutely crush the MCAT, then you still have a shot at getting into med-school even with a 3.2. Granted, the odds are better if you had a better GPA, but you still have a shot.

Alexandre · March 1, 2005, 6:34am

Sakky, obviously a student with a 3.2 GPA and a 12.5 MCAT or 175 LSAT has a shot at medical and law schools. But it is not surprising that the % of Michigan or Cornell applicants accepted into Medical school and Law school with GPAs over 3.5 is close to 100% and for those with GPAs under 3.0 is close to 0%...hence, the 60%-85% succeess rate.

As for Michigan favoring its own...it is actually pretty clear. There is no room for interpretation. Michigan Medical school enrolls 170 first year students each year. Of those, roughly 35-50 (20%-30%) are Michigan graduates. The next most popular undergraduate contigent comes from Harvard (between 7 and 10 annually). Same with Law school. Roughly 350 students join the Michigan Law school annually. Of those, roughly 60-80 (15%-25%) are Michigan graduates. The next most popular contingent is Harvard with 15-20 annually. There is no comparison. In the case of Cal and UCLA, their own undergrads do not make up the largest contigent. In the case of Michigan, its own undergrads do make up the largest contigent...by a HUGE margin.

sakky · March 3, 2005, 4:12am

And again, you still haven't shown me that this is due to favoritism. Again, I repeat my 3 reasons:

1) Michigan is just a very big school. Michigan has 25k undergrads. Harvard has 6k. Hence, if the situation was fair, Michigan should be getting more than 4 times the students into UM Medical than Harvard is getting.

2) Almost all UM undergrads are, or can easily become Michigan state residents. A smaller percentage of Harvard students are, or can easily become Michigan state residents. Michigan state residents get preference for admission to UM graduate schools.

3) UM grads tend to want to stay in Michigan, just like Harvard grads tend to want to stay in the Northeast.

Hence, it is NOT pretty clear that there is favoritism going on. In fact is it pretty UNCLEAR. Just factor #1 (the size factor - Michigan has more than 4 times the undergraduates that Harvard does) would explain the numerical discrepancy between UM and Harvard undergrads getting into UM graduate school, and I haven't even figured in factors 2 and 3.

The point is, I have seen no evidence that Michigan favors its own undergrads that cannot also be explained simply by those 3 factors above.

Alexandre · March 3, 2005, 6:41am

Sakky, no graduate program will explicitly say that it favors its own undergraduate students. I don't even think that would be legal. But I know my university well and I can tell you that the University of Michigan believes that the best undergraduate students in the country are in Ann Arbor. As such, they will chose students from there above all other students.

Sakky, Harvard has 6,600 undergrads. Michigan has 24,500 undergrads. So Michigan is 3.7 times large than Harvard. At the Michigan Medical school, there are currently 170 Michigan (not including Interflex participants) students compared to 28 students from Harvard. That's 6.1 times more Michigan students than Harvard students. So even when you look at the size of the schools, Michigan has a close to a 2:1 advantage over Harvard and Sakky, you happen to have chosen the best university in America. Other universities do not even come close. Cal has 22, Stanford has 21, UCLA has 20 and Cornell, Duke and Northwestern have 19 each.

Let us compare the ratio of Michigan grads enrolled in the Michigan medical school to grads of other elite schools enrolled in the Michigan medical school...with size differential factored in.

Harvard has 6,600 undergrads compared to Michigan's 24,500. So Michigan undergrad is 3.7 times larger than Harvard undergrad. And Michigan grads enrolled at the Michigan medical school outnumber Harvard grads by 170:28 or 6:1. So the ratio, when taking size into account is 1.7 Michigan grads to 1 Harvard grad.

Duke has 6,200 undergrads compared to Michigan's 24,500. So Michigan undergrad is 4 times larger than Duke undergrad. And Michigan grads enrolled at the Michigan medical school outnumber Duke grads by 170:19 or 9:1. So the ratio, when taking size into account is 2.2 Michigan grads to 1 Duke Grad.

Stanford has 7,100 undergrads compared to Michigan's 24,500. So Michigan undergrad is 3.5 times larger than Stanford undergrad. And Michigan grads enrolled at the Michigan medical school outnumber Stanford grads by 170:21 or 8:1. So the ratio, when taking size into account is 2.3 Michigan grads to 1 Stanford grad.

Northwestern, Cornell, Cal and UCLA have significantly lower ratios.

Here are the links for you to verify the numbers.

<a href="http://www.med.umich.edu/medschool/admissions/classprofiles.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.med.umich.edu/medschool/admissions/classprofiles.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.med.umich.edu/medschool/admissions/classprofile2002.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.med.umich.edu/medschool/admissions/classprofile2002.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.med.umich.edu/medschool/admissions/classprofile2003.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.med.umich.edu/medschool/admissions/classprofile2003.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.med.umich.edu/medschool/admissions/classprofile2004.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.med.umich.edu/medschool/admissions/classprofile2004.htm</a>

You will find that the Law school has similarly lopsided numbers. Like I said, Michigan favors its own.

sakky · March 3, 2005, 11:57pm

And again, you still refuse to account for factors 2 and 3.

Again, I repeat.

Factor 2 - UM graduate school, by law, must favor Michigan state residents. A far higher percentage of UM undergrads are, or can easily become, Michigan state residents, than is the case at Harvard, Stanford, or any other non-Michigan school.

Factor 3 - Most people tend to want to stay close to home. For example, you might say that Stanford Law has lots of Stanford undergrads because Stanford Law wants to favor Stanford undergrads. But then why does Berkeley Boalt Law also have lots of Stanford undergrads? Is it because Berkeley-Boalt also wants to favor Stanford undergrads (and if so, why exactly would it want to do that)? Conversely, Stanford Law also has lots of Berkeley undergrads. Is it because Stanford Law wants to favor Berkeley undergrads? Similarly, why is it that Harvard Business School, in addition to have lots of Harvard undergrads, also has lots of MIT undergrads? Why is it that the MIT-Sloan School not only has lots of MIT undergrads, but also has lots of Harvard undergrads? Is it because HBS wants to favor MIT undergrads and MIT-Sloan wants to favor Harvard undergrads? Come on, use Occam's Razor, and I think it is pretty self-evident that people want to stay where they are already established.

Alexandre, come on, how many times do I need to keep repeating myself? You still have not shown that what is happening at UM cannot be simply explained by a combination of factors 1,2, and 3. Prove to me statistically that what is happening at UM has nothing to do with those factors, and I will concede. Otherwise, I have to say that you are just continuing to dodge the question.

Again, I am not saying that I know there is no favoring going on. I am saying that as of right now, it is still an unproven assertion, and nothing you have shown me indicates that there is favoring going on, and not some combination of factors 1,2, and 3, which I think are far stronger determinants.

Alexandre · March 4, 2005, 2:06am

But Sakky, I have proven my point. At this stage, you are just being stubborn! hehe

Seriously though, like I said, we cannot prove our points. I am not familiar with any "law" that stipulates that Michigan must favor in-state applicants. That is obviously true of undergraduate admissions and in the case of the medical school...but not for other graduate programs. In fact, of Michigan's 14,000 graduate students, 3,500 (25%) are international and an additional 8,000 (close to 60%) are from out of state. Only 15% of Michigan's graduate population in made up of in-staters.

As for point 3, Michigan is not different from any other school in that regard. People get accustomed to an area and as such, it is natural that they will want to stay if given the opportunity.

But Sakky, none of this changes the fact that Michigan professional graduate programs favors their own. I have heard it directly from administrators. In this regard, Michigan is no different from most graduate programs. Cal and UCLA are obviously not in the same boat if they enroll more students from other schools, but Michigan does not leave much to imagination.

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