<p>Was talking to one of my good friends that's currently a pre-law Princetonian - English major - and he was telling me that Princeton's (of 139, 18 accepted) and Michigan's (of 111, 14 Accepted) placement rate into HLS were the same, both at 13%. </p>
<p>As someone who went to an Exeter-type school, he found this interesting, as did I. Just felt like sharing.</p>
<p>HurdSL, I cannot say that I am surprised, though I would have expected Princeton to do a little better. Michigan’s alumni placement into top graduate schools is very impressive. I have said it many times before. In abolsute terms, Michigan places more of its alums into top 10 graduate programs than all but 3 or 4 universities in the nation. </p>
<p>Relatively speaking, as a percentage of its total student body, Michigan still cracks the top 20 but probably does not make the top 10. That has little to do with quality of education received and more to do with the fact that Michigan has a slightly weaker student body (primarily among the lower third of Michigan’s student body) than many of its smaller peers and that it has many students enrolled in untraditional programs such as nursning and music that do not pursue graduate programs at the same rate as students enrolled in traditional liberal arts programs.</p>
<p>And this also applies to professional placement. The best and most exclusive companies recruit heavily at only a few designated “strategic” campuses. Invariably, Michigan is always on the short list. </p>
<p>Bottom line, although I do not believe that Michigan does as well as HYPS when it comes to graduate school (or professional) placement, I know that it does as well as its private peers, which include Columbia, Cornell, Northwestern and Penn (not including Wharton for professional placement).</p>
<p>where did you get the number for princeton from? I was looking at 2006 data, there were like 50 students from princeton and 20 some from michigan.</p>
<p>Just wondering</p>
<p>< [Stats</a> «*Office of Career Services « Princeton University](<a href=“Search Opportunities | Human Resources”>Search Opportunities | Human Resources) ></p>
<p>Princeton - Harvard : 139 Applied, 18 Admitted</p>
<p>< [College</a> of Literature, Science, and the Arts : Students](<a href=“http://www.lsa.umich.edu/advising/advisor/prelaw/um_stats]College”>http://www.lsa.umich.edu/advising/advisor/prelaw/um_stats) ></p>
<p>Michigan - Harvard : 111 Applied, 14 Admitted</p>
<p>
Really? Only 3 or 4?</p>
<p>Lets compare the non-HYP Ivies, Duke and Berkeley with Michigan with regards to absolute placement at top 10 professional programs where undergraduate representation data is available.</p>
<p>Yale Law
[Yale</a> University Bulletin | Yale Law School 2010?2011 | Law School Students](<a href=“Welcome | Office of the University Printer”>Welcome | Office of the University Printer)
Brown: 21
Cornell: 10
Columbia: 22
Dartmouth: 15
Duke: 14
Penn: 14
UCB: 12 </p>
<p>Michigan: 9</p>
<p>Harvard Law
<a href=“http://replay.web.archive.org/20070531213708/http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php[/url]”>http://replay.web.archive.org/20070531213708/http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php</a>
Brown: 48
Cornell: 45
Columbia: 46
Dartmouth: 35
Duke: 41
Penn: 57
UCB: 48 </p>
<p>Michigan: 23</p>
<p>I would suspect that Michigan would come in 12th in professional placement using absolute numbers after the Ivy League, Duke, Stanford and UCB at the top 10 professional programs in business, law and medicine in the country. This is a far cry from being a “top 3 or 4” producer as Alexandre would suggest. Still pretty impressive nevertheless that it only trails the top 10 private schools and the best public school in the nation…</p>
<p>LDB, you are too funny. I do not recall the last time there was a positive comment made about Michigan (on the Michigan forum mind you) that you did not feel compeled to belittle. You just cannot tolerate seeing anything positive said about Michigan. Your behavior on this forum suggests one (or more) of the following:</p>
<ol>
<li>You have an intolerable (dare I say irrational) hatred for Michigan </li>
<li>You have extremely low self-esteem</li>
<li>You have a huge chip on your shoulder where Michigan is concerned </li>
</ol>
<p>At any rate, all I said is that in absolute terms, Michigan places more alums into top graduate programs than all but 3 or 4 universities. In that regard I was spot on. I was not referring to just Harvard and Yale Law schools. I was referring to the top 10 Medical Schools, top 10 Law schools, top 10 MBA programs and top 10 Engineering programs. </p>
<p>Although there isn’t a reliable source that gives out exact and up to date statistics on this subject, according to the Wall Street Journal report conducted back in 2005, Michigan placed 156 students into the top 5 Law Schools, top 5 Medical Schools and top 5 MBA programs. Only Harvard (358), Yale (231), Stanford (181) and Princeton (174) placed more students than Michigan. Penn was 6th on that ranking, with 153. Duke had 139 and Cal 118. </p>
<p>The exact ranking in absolute numbers was:
<p><a href=“http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf[/url]”>http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf</a></p>
<p>The following programs were used for the study:</p>
<p>MEDICINE:
Columbia
Harvard
Johns Hopkins
UCSF
Yale</p>
<p>MBA:
Chicago
Dartmouth (Tuck)
Harvard
MIT (Sloan)
Penn (Wharton)</p>
<p>LAW:
Chicago
Columbia
Harvard
Michigan
Yale</p>
<p>Admittedly, with just 5 programs (qnd 11 of the 15 on the East Coast) in each field, this study is incomplete. Harvard, having its three graduate programs included in the study, benefits greatly because graduate schools will give preference to their own undergrads. Chicago, Columbia and Yale also benefit from the WSJ study, having two of their programs included in the study. But it is still a pretty good place to start.</p>
<p>I also looked at the latest bulletins of three top 10 law schools (Yale, Chicago and Michigan) and 2 top 10 Medical schools (JHU and Michigan). Michigan actually comes out on top, but that’s because the sample size is small (only 3 JD programs and 2 MD programs) and Michigan was on both lists. Below are the most represtented universities at those 5 top graduate programs:</p>
<p>Alums currently attending JHU and Michigan Medical Schools and Yale, Chicago and Michigan Law Schools:</p>
<ol>
<li>Michigan: 350+</li>
<li>Yale: 200-210</li>
<li>Harvard: 185-195</li>
<li>Stanford: 115-125</li>
<li>Cornell: 85-95 </li>
<li>Princeton: 75-80</li>
<li>UC-Berkeley: 75-80</li>
<li>Duke: 70-80</li>
<li>Northwestern: 70-80</li>
<li>Chicago: 70-80</li>
<li>Penn: 65-75</li>
<li>Columbia: 65-75</li>
</ol>
<p>From this list, I can only imagine Harvard, Yale and Stanford overtaking Michigan.
I would love to see other bulletins, but universities do not publish their numbers.</p>
<p>Either way, it is safe to say that Michigan is among the top 4 or 5 in terms of absolute numbers, and among the top 15 (or thereabout) in terms of relative numbers. That is what I said initially and I am just as correct now as I was then.</p>
<p>In short, only HYPS seem to have any real advantage over Michigan. Other private peers, such as Columbia, Cornell, Northwestern and Penn, do not seem to have any advantage.</p>
<p>" LDB, you are too funny. I do not recall the last time there was a positive comment made about Michigan (on the Michigan forum mind you) that you did not feel compeled to belittle. You just cannot tolerate seeing anything positive said about Michigan. Your behavior on this forum suggests one (or more) of the following:</p>
<ol>
<li>You have an intolerable (dare I say irrational) hatred for Michigan </li>
<li>You have extremely low self-esteem</li>
<li>You have a huge chip on your shoulder where Michigan is concerned"</li>
</ol>
<p>It’s worse than that Alexandre. LBD continuously is trying to poison young and impressionable high schoolers into his way of thinking. You, I, and many others have wasted much time and many posts pointing out his claims of how unworthy Michigan is to be listed as one of the greatest schools in the U.S. He overtly claims that Michigan is not a peer of Duke in any way, shape, or form. At the same time he constantly likes to lump Duke in with the names of HYPSM in many discussions as if his alma mater is on the same level. </p>
<p>“Although there isn’t a reliable source that gives out exact and up to date statistics on this subject, according to the Wall Street Journal report conducted back in 2005, Michigan placed 156 students into the top 5 Law Schools, top 5 Medical Schools and top 5 MBA programs. Only Harvard (358), Yale (231), Stanford (181) and Princeton (174) placed more students than Michigan. Penn was 6th on that ranking, with 153. Duke had 139 and Cal 118.”</p>
<p>There’s the reality that LBD doesn’t care to acknowledge. He can’t stand the thought that Duke is lumped together in the REAL WORLD with a school like Michigan. In his mind, Duke should be right up there with HYPS. In the REAL WORLD, it isn’t quite there. In the REAL WORLD Duke is considered a very good academic institution, on par with The University of Michigan. Peer assessment scores at USNWR have proven this for years.</p>
<p>LDB’s post is irrelevant, as usual; of the kids who want to go on to Harvard Law - which is quite lower than its private peers - Michigan success rate is as good as the best of them, Princeton included. You notice that Chicago had 13 on the 06-07 HLS list, and in no way is it inferior to Michigan, Columbia, Dartmouth, UCB, Duke, Cornell, Penn, or Brown.</p>
<p>I thought LDB’s posts on the Michigan forum were being removed because every post of his lead to a degenerative back and forth that ceases to provide useful information to the OP and the other posters and viewers on CC.</p>
<p>I don’t think LDB a unique specimen of the Duke species. The only differences is that he is from Michigan and has friends who go to U-M. Duke (as are many other proviate schools and top OOS publics) is probably underrepresented with students from Michigan because U-M provides such a value to in-state students that there is no compelling reason to attend Duke. rjk, I think they teach them at Duke orientation that they are the same as HYPS - LDB is not the only Dukie who holds this view. Yes, they have trouble accepting that they are peers with Emory, Vandy, WashU, Chicago and Northwestern. Ordinary people do not react to news of a kid going to Duke like they do to news of a kid going to HYPS - they just don’t. Comparing Duke and Michigan is a bit like comparing apples and oranges because of Michigan’s size and because it is public.</p>
<p>
Nah. The only bit of indoctrination that I recall involved the student president beating the mess out of a UNC basketball while leading a chant of “Go to hell, Carolina, go to hell!” </p>
<p>As for teaching that they are the same as other schools, I am constantly under the suspicion that several Michigan posters have a red spot on their shoulders from constantly patting themselves on the back. Students at my own in-state flagship absolutely adore it and don’t spend a fraction of the time comparing it to other schools that I’ve seen from several Michigan posters. It’s rather refreshing, and admissions at that school does not suffer in the slightest from not being shoved down everyone’s throats.</p>
<p>Personally, I’m obviously fond of Duke and have always had a great deal of respect for Michigan. Both schools have their share of admirers - although [url=<a href=“Almost everyone hates Duke – here’s why – The Denver Post”>Almost everyone hates Duke – here’s why – The Denver Post]many[/url</a>] have a lot more [url=<a href=“http://theweek.com/article/index/201245/Why_everybody_hates_Duke_5_theories?utm_source=bleacherreport.com]hate[/url”>http://theweek.com/article/index/201245/Why_everybody_hates_Duke_5_theories?utm_source=bleacherreport.com]hate[/url</a>] for the former (besides some Ohio residents). Why posters from either school have a need to be defensive is beyond me. The excuse that either needs to be “defended” from antagonistic claims is amusing if well-intentioned – I doubt CC has even a minuscule effect on admissions at either institution, particularly Michigan, which will always draw heavily from in-state students who grew up liking the school. In the meantime, the rest of us are bored to tears with rankings and placement statistics. </p>
<p>Now, I think it’s terribly rude to post denigrating comments about a school on its own forum, and I am hesitant to do so - but when posters start generalizing about a school from one or two posters, I think things go too far. This is something that has been weighing on me for some time; it was a Michigan poster’s blind promotion of rankings in favor of that school - to the detriment of a prospective student, I felt - who drove me from this site for several months.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Maybe, it’s because most state schools (especially UC schools), the percentage of OOS kids is fairly small. Michigan on the other hand gets almost 40% of its students OOS, therefore there are many more students having to make decisions like Umich vs. Duke.</p>
<p>
</li>
</ol>
<p>Are you a psychologist now too Alexandre in addition to a college admissions expert? I think Michigan is a fantastic school that is probably slighlty underrates by USNWR but making statements like Michigan sends more students to top 10 law/med/biz schools when that is patently false is unbecoming of a supermoderator. You are not only a Michigan alum but you are supposed to be an objective arbiter on this forum and website as a whole and not just a Maize and Blue booster.</p>
<p>To rebuke your theories however,</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I have no dislike of Michigan, but rather I have dozens of friends that go there and used to be a football fan but now I admit I’m rather apathetic when it comes to college football.</p></li>
<li><p>I come from a wealthy family, am in good shape and have a great job lined up. Not too many reasons to really have a low self-esteem…</p></li>
<li><p>I was admitted to LSA Honors but turned it down after getting into Columbia/Duke/etc. so I don’t understand why I would have a chip on my shoulder.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>
Then why don’t you be fair and include UVA Law into the equation and Wharton’s MBA program, both of which are top 10? I know Michigan would drop a little further but that’s your responsibility as a supermoderator to be as fair and impartial as possible.</p>
<p>
You know as well as I do Alex that the WSJ Feeder Rankings actually unfairly advantage Columbia, Dartmouth, Michigan and Yale in particular since neither Columbia’s Med School, Dartmouth’s Business School, Michigan’s Law School or Yale’s Med School are really worth of top 5 rankings in their respective fields.</p>
<p>If you truly wanted to be fair Alex, you would discount the placement of Wolverines into Michigan’s Law School since they would obviously be the most represented there due to home institution bias yet you don’t. Even with including Michigan Law, Duke and Penn are still on Michigan’s heels with regards to absolute placement of students into the top professional programs.</p>
<p>
You’re lucky they don’t because I’m willing to bet the house that Duke is more represented than Michigan at every top 10 professional program besides Michigan and perhaps Chicago and Northwestern’s.</p>
<p>At any rate, UVA and Wharton publish their numbers at least for certain years and Michigan lags behind most of the schools I mentioned there as well.</p>
<p>
Where did Princeton come from? Duke places better at most of the placement bulletins I’ve seen than Princeton so you might as well include it, Penn and Columbia as well.</p>
<p>
I don’t think Duke is as good as HYPSM. Why all the state school posters make this claim is beyond me. I think Duke ranks somewhere between #6 and #10 depending on how you rank universities. I can say Duke is better than Michigan but not as good as HYPSM. That’s not a mutually exclusive concept considering that Michigan’s range as institution falls between #20 and #30 and not as high as top 15 like Alexandre would claim.</p>
<p>I think Alexandre has taught all the posters here how to use the Straw man fallacy to their advantage. Saying I think Columbia or Duke is better than Michigan does not mean I think that they are as good as HYPSM.</p>
<p>“I come from a wealthy family, am in good shape and have a great job lined up. Not too many reasons to really have a low self-esteem…” </p>
<p>You’re aware that says nothing about your self-esteem, right? That means your dad has money and you go to the gym. For someone who claims to be very smart, you’d think that by now you would understand that these comments make Duke look very silly and make you look like a child. I don’t care what school you go to, with a shining personality like that, you’re bound to land a very average job someday.</p>
<p>If you would be so kind LDB, explain why you make such belittling (usually very silly and misinformed) posts. I would love to understand why you care so much (since you insist it isn’t because you are very insecure).</p>
<p>“I know”
“You know as well as I do”
“You’re lucky they don’t because I’m willing to bet the house” </p>
<p>Sounds like he’s getting pretty desperate…</p>
<p>LDB, regardless of what you say, your actions speak louder than your “rebuke”. It does not take a psychologist to notice the fact that you are constantly on the Michigan forum, always responding to any post that praises the University. Just look at this thread. The OP merely stated a fact. Princeton’s acceptance rate into Harvard Law School was no better than Michigan’s last year. Indeed, Princeton’s acceptance rate was 12% while Michigan’s was 13%. My own post stated another fact; according to availlable information, Michigan is one of the 5 most represented universities if you look at the total number of alums currently enrolled at top 10 graduate programs of Business, Engineering Law and Medicine. In both cases, we posted facts that can be verified.</p>
<p>My own track record is clear. I am no booster. Anybody on CC who knows me can vouch that I am honest, fair and even handed when it comes to universities, including Michigan. I give just evaluations and often admit Michigan’s shortcomings. Just because I think highly of Michigan, loved my experience there and defend it when someone ignorantly underrates it does not make me biased or a booster. I will, however, insist that all universities, including Michigan, receive fair treatment.</p>
<p>As for UVa law school and Wharton, if you have the current total number of alums from all universities enrolled in those programs (or any other top 10 program), please provide us with links and add the numbers to mine above. I know UVa Law publishes numbers for one year, but not for the total number currently enrolled. I never saw an official number for Wharton. I doubt any university can overtake Michigan other than HYS. I am sure many universities will catch up, but to completely close a gap of 250-300 is not realistic. Duke will not even come close. I predict Michigan will end up with more than twice as many alums enrolled into top 10 graduate programs than Duke…as well it should. The two schools are equally respected and Michigan is significantly larger. In the end, my comment will stand. Michigan will remain one of the 5 most represented universities at top 10 graduate programs. The fact that Michigan has top 10 graduate programs in Business, Engineering, Law and Medicine and that the University gives preference to its own students should not be used against Michigan. In fact, it is a strength.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I don’t know bro, I hear the suicide rate for GS TMT is 3x Street average :p</p>
<p>
Just to be clear Alex, Ross and Michigan Med are not currently considered to be top 10 graduate programs. This is just one of many examples of instances where you subtly boost Michigan’s reputation in various programs unfairly at the expense of other schools.</p>
<p>[Best</a> Business School Rankings | MBA Program Rankings | US News](<a href=“http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-business-schools/mba-rankings]Best”>http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-business-schools/mba-rankings)
Ross:#14
Fuqua: #12</p>
<p>Neither Ross or Fuqua are considered to be top 10 MBA programs. GSB, HBS, Sloan, Wharton, Kellogg, Booth, Tuck, Haas, Columbia and Stern are the undisputed top 10. Although Yale SOM is currently tied with Stern, historically NYU has fielded the stronger program in business so I gave the edge to NYU. This is pretty much the consensus.</p>
<p>[Best</a> Medical Schools | Research Rankings | Top Medical Schools for Research | US News Best Graduate Schools](<a href=“http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-medical-schools/research-rankings]Best”>http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-medical-schools/research-rankings)
Duke Med: #5-6 (UCSF may be considered better)
Michigan Med: #10-11</p>
<p>So Michigan Medical School is considered to be a fringe top 10 medical institution. Most premed students I know would go to Columbia Med over Michigan Med given the chance and it does have a higher composite MCAT average. But to be fair, if you are allowed to use Michigan Med’s results to compare professional school placement among undergraduate programs, then I should be able to use Duke Law School’s figures as well since it is a fringe top 10 law school as well, alternating with Northwestern from what I’ve seen.</p>
<p>
Once again, you conveniently ignore the fact that Duke has a top 10 medical school and arguably a top 10 law school (if you include schools on the fringe as you do with Michigan Med). Unfortunately Duke doesn’t disclose placement statistics per undergraduate school like Michigan does, but I would estimate the Duke undergrad presence to be large and greatly chip away at if not totally overcome whatever lead Michigan may have artificially manufactured according to your data as a result of the inclusion of its own Law and Medical programs. From personal experience, I know of at least 5 individuals from my own recent graduating class at Duke that will be headed to both Duke Med and Duke Law respectively. Blue Devils tend to share the same love for their alma mater as Wolverines do. Michigan’s only saving grace in this discussion may be the fact that its professional programs are much larger in size than Duke’s, thereby allowing many more of their undergrads to be included and thus advantaged in the process.</p>
<p>
Alright, let me delete Michigan Med for fairness sakes and add UVA Law in order to get more unbiased and accurate data to test your hypothesis. I shall post the new data sometime soon i.e. hopefully tomorrow if I get a chance.</p>
<p>However, on a closing note for tonight, I’m not sure if you used the old Chicago bulletin in your tabulations Alex because the most current one is available and the results</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.law.uchicago.edu/files/file/TheLawSchool%20PDF%202010-10-05.pdf[/url]”>http://www.law.uchicago.edu/files/file/TheLawSchool%20PDF%202010-10-05.pdf</a>
Chicago Law 2010-11
<p>Stanford only has 8 and Princeton only has 7 students currently matriculated at the University of Chicago Law School in case ya’ll are wondering.</p>
<p>
Haha luckily I don’t work in that group.;)</p>
<p>LDB, where did I ignore Duke’s graduate programs? Did I ever say that Duke’s Medical, Law or Business schools are not legitimate top 10 graduate programs? I doubt I ever even hinted such a thing, but in case I have, let me clarify right now that I believe that Duke is a top 5 Medical school and that Duke also has a N14 Law school and arguably a top 10 MBA program. If you have matriculation data for those three programs, again, please provide the links and add the numbers to post #6. </p>
<p>The fact of the matter is, there is no such thing as an exact list of top 10 graduate programs. For Business, HBS, Wharton, Kellogg, Stanford and perhaos Booth are the only clear top 10 MBA programs. Programs such as Columbia, Fuqua, Haas, Ross, Sloan, Stern, Tuck and now Yale SOM are all legitimate top 10 MBA programs and are ranked among the top 10 in respected publications, such as the FT or Business Week. Some would even say that Anderson and Darden are top 10 MBA programs. </p>
<p>For Law, there is again no clear top 10 programs. Yale, Harvard and Stanford make the strongest case, followed by Chicago, Columbia, Michigan and NYU. But you then have 7 other Law schools that can make a strong claim for top 10 honors, including Cal, Cornell, Duke, Georgetown, Northwestern, Penn and UVa. </p>
<p>Same goes for Medical schools, although the USNWR ranked Michigan #7 in 2008, #11 in 2009, #6 in 2010 and #10 in 2011. I am not sure why you chose to ignore 2008 and 2010. Michigan Medical school’s range in medical school rankings is #6-#11. According to the reputational score, Michigan Medical school is always ranked between #6 and #8.</p>
<p>Although Cornell and Duke are not officially ranked among the top 10 in Business and Law, I include them in my definition of top 10 graduate programs. Michigan Medical and Ross are also legitimate top 10 graduate programs. </p>
<p>As for my numbers in post #6, they are based on a range depending on the year. Regardless of the year for the last 4 or 5 years, Michigan has had over 350 of its alums enrolled in those five top 10 graduate programs. Duke has had between 70-80. Obviously, Michigan benefits from having the numbers of its own Law and Medical programs included. If we had numbers for Duke Law and Medical, I am sure Duke would close the gap a little, although probably not to more than half. </p>
<p>Bottom line, if you include all alums matriculating at top 10 graduate programs of Business, Engineering, Law and Medicine, I am fairly certain that Harvard, Yale and Stanford will be the most highly represented, followed by Michigan. This it to be expected given its size. Michigan is the largest top 20 university in the nation. As such, in terms of absolutely numbers, it only stands to reason that Michigan will place more students into top graduate programs than most other universities. In post #2, I clearly stated that in relative terms (as a percentage of the total student body), Michigan’s placement into top graduate programs would be among the top 20 but not among the top 10. Again, I never stated anything that is incorrect. I clearly differentiated between absolute and relative numbers.</p>
<p>“This it to be expected given its size. Michigan is the largest top 20 university in the nation.”</p>
<p>Cal, as an undergraduate institution, is about the same size as Michigan. Overall school size really is not really pertinent to this discussion.</p>
<p>That is correct. Cal, Michigan and UCLA each has 26,000 undergrads, give or take 500. Then you have a small dip to UNC, which has 19,000 undergrads and then another small dip Cornell and UVa, each of which has 14,000 undergrads. Then another drop to Penn, which has 10,000 undergrads.</p>