<p>I live in Virginia, and I know there's already a UVA vs. Mich thread but my circumstances are a little bit different. I was offered a 20k scholarship at Michigan, so affordability isn't a huge factor. I want to major in government, IR, or chemistry. All three schools have good political science and chemistry programs (although W&M's IR program is supposedly the best of the 3 by far). I've visited all the campuses, and I really like them in different ways. Michigan is bigger, but very nice; UVA is medium sized and I love the walkability; William and Mary is the coziest, with an awesome historical background. I'm leaning towards William and Mary, but anyone have any suggestions/comments? Any help is appreciated.</p>
<p>Go for fit. It would seem like W&M is the one for you.</p>
<p>P.S. Michigan does not have IR whatsoever. It only has Political Science, and in that field, it is generally ranked between #1 and #3 in the nation.</p>
<p>My child is a Poli Sci major. I gather from conversations that the teaching in the department is uninspired (there are a few notable exceptions). Faculty show up rather unprepared, talk stream of consciousness, and more often than not let the class go early. Clearly an example of teaching not ‘counting’ for anything in a top-ranked department. I would say that Poli Sci at Michigan has been a turn-off for my kid. On the whole, the teaching at Michigan has not been award winning but that is not why you go to Michigan. I would like to think that this would not be the case at William and Mary. Other than that, my kid loves Michigan - actively involved in numerous activities, lots of friends, loves the campus and the constant bombardment of stimulation that Michigan offers. Would not want to be anywhere else.</p>
<p>Economics, Political Science and Psychology are very popular majors at almost every major university. Classes in such majors will generally be large and impersonal at most colleges, including UVa and Michigan…though perhaps not W&M. But the professors at Michigan will bring an element of experience and knowledge that few professors at other universities can match.</p>
<p>This said, I think Ahmed should go for W&M. He seems to feel at home there, and that is the most important criterion as far as I am concerned.</p>
<p>W & M sounds like a good fit, but I’ve actually had a good experience with Polsci at Michigan. Most of my classes have about 15-25 people, I’ve had easy access to professors and research, and there is plenty of room for everyone. One of the greatest things about Michigan is that there are so many classes to pick from, especially from a department like Polsci, and you’re also aware of what professors are like beforehand. The only issue I’ve had with classes at Michigan is that a couple of the graduate students helping it, although good at teaching, overbearingly express extremist political views.
I’m not sure what W & M and UVA are ranked in the sub-categories of political science, but Michigan is known to be by far the first in American politics and quantitative analysis (Schools in the Big 10, Wisco and Minn in particularly, are frontrunners in this). That being said, Michigan is only ranked somewhere in the top 10 in international/comparative politics, so you wouldn’t be missing out on “OMG THE top-notch program” if that’s what interests you.</p>
<p>I agree Christine, the couple of PS classes are took were not too large (larger than 25 students though), but they were intro level classes and they were excellent. Christine, Michigan is #5 in International Politics and #7 in Comparative Politics…so perhaps not “OMG THE Top-notch program”, but certainly not far from it. As you point out, Michigan is THE #1 American Politics department in the US.</p>
<p>Yeah the rankings are useful, but they aren’t that important. Rankings alone would lead me to choose UVA. I was able to sit in for a public policy class at W&M and UVa and I loved both of them (even though the class sizes were much bigger I feel like the professor at UVA was trying to get everyone involved in discussions). W&M has the smaller class sizes and I love that all their classes are taught by professors. Also, I could kind of tell that the students in the W&M class were much closer with their professor. I didn’t get a chance to do that for Michigan because I did not email ahead of time and it was 10 hours away.</p>
<p>UVA is overrated.</p>
<p>“Rankings alone would lead me to choose UVA.”</p>
<p>I am not sure why that is Ahmed. UVa is generally ranked between #20 and #24, Michigan is generally ranked between #22 and #26 and W&M is generally ranked between #29 and #34. In other words, they are all ranked the same.</p>
<p>In Chemistry, Political Science/Public Policy, Michigan is excellent. UVa and W&M are not quite as strong in those majors, but fit matters just as much, so if you feel like you would be happier at W&M or UVa, go for one of those two schools.</p>
<p>Alexandre, I agree with you completely. What I’m saying is the difference of the rankings are not as significant for me. (Although from what I’ve seen, every list has UVA a bit higher with the exception of the international rankings from USN) To rjkofnovi, you are entitled to your opinion, but from visiting the University of Virginia and attending a class, I have not seen a better environment for learning, period. </p>
<p>I think the same goes for major rankings. All three schools have excellent programs in those majors, and Michigan may be higher ranked, but rankings are based on a wide variety of things. The key for me is, as Alexandre said, fit and also how well each college prepares you for graduate school in each field. I think all three of these colleges would do a very fine job in that sense.</p>
<p>I have some sense of a right fit at all three colleges, honestly. I absolutely loved Ann Arbor as a college town, but the campus at W&M was my personal favorite (Williamsburg seems like it could get boring though). Charlottesville was also very beautiful, and the learning environment was great. I would be very happy to go to any of these schools, but choosing is tough!</p>
<p>Not sure why you keep ■■■■■■■■ on the Michigan board Ahmedkhokar. You’re obviously going to go to a school in VA and that’s fine. Just don’t expect UMich partisans to agree with you on every detail. If you have come here for validation, I suggest you take it to the UVA and William and Mary boards.</p>
<p>Hahahahaha, rjkofnovi–the guy who does the same thing on the UVA board is telling someone else to do the same thing I told him…wow, you learn fast rjkofnovi…come on big champ, tell me one more time slowly: “UVA is overrated”, hahaha.</p>
<p>I don’t intend to ■■■■■, I’m just responding to comments about UVA being “overrated” and such. I really am having a tough decision. It wasn’t as tough before because I was assuming Michigan was going to be 15k + more expensive, but now that the tuition is basically equalized (20k scholarship), it’s a very tough choice. I’m trying to get a sense of how the Michigan experience would impact me during and after college (I know academically, it’s as good as any). How is life in Ann Arbor? How active is the student body? Stuff like that, and I was hoping current students would respond.</p>
<p>Very well. I’ll repeat it again so you will understand. U…V…A…i…s…o…v…e…r…r…a…t…e…d.</p>
<p>Novi, UVa is not overrated in general. In fact, it may well be underrated. But I agree that on CC, it is overrated. UVa is an awesome university that provides an extremely well rounded undergraduate experience. In many respects, it is as good as Michigan. It certainly is as good as Michigan in Business and te Humanities. It is also as good for Pre-Law and Pre-Med students. Finally, UVa has a great campus atmsphere and is located in a great college town. In all those respects, UVa is every bit as good as Michigan. Where Michigan is better than UVa is in Engineering and the Sciences (both the Hard Sciences and the Social Scienses). Overall, when you take all things into consideration (academic strength, avademic versitality, campus life, college town, reputation, professional and graduate school placement etc…), at the undergraduate level, Michigan is only slightly (and insignificantly) better than UVa, if at all. But that’s in the “overall” context. In Engineering for example, it isn’t even close and unless cost is a major factor, the decision is a no-brainer. It would be like chosing Yale over MIT or Stanford for Engineering.</p>
<p>Ahmed, your decision is tough…all the more so because all three schools now cost the same to attend. We don’t really need to tell you about Michigan’s campus. You know it is impressive, you know it is nice, you know it is active, you know it is large and you know it has spirit. As for Ann Arbor, again, I am sure youknow it is as nice a college town as they come. The reason your decision is tough is because all three schools you are considering are excellent. In your chosen majors, Michigan does have a significant advantage over the other two. Michigan’s Political Science department is significantly better than W&Ms or UVa’s…and it is also better relative to their IR programs. And Michigan’s Chemistry department is also significantly better. I recommend you make a quick stop in Ann Arbor either this coming weekend or the next and then, based on that visit, make your decision.</p>
<p>I’ve narrowed it down to Michigan and William and Mary. I visited before and loved Michigan, but I think I might take your advice and take another visit next weekend. If I can go during the week I’ll definitely sit in for a class if possible.Then, after admitted students’ day at William and Mary, make my decision from there. Michigan has a clear edge in the majors in terms of rankings, but there are other factors that aren’t taken into consideration when ranking the majors. Something that really impressed me is the smaller class size at William and Mary and the close interaction between professors and students. That type of interaction is important and opens up so many more opportunities for graduate school, which really shows in their graduate school acceptance rate (79 percent for med school, according to the website). That’s my only real concern with Michigan, because recommendations are really important for grad schools. Anyone that attends Michigan know about class sizes and student-teacher interaction for those departments? (Chem, IR, Pol Sci)</p>
<p>Chem classes at Michigan (once you get the 100 levels) tend to be rather small (15-35 students) and that allows for good interaction with faculty. Political Science classes tend to be large because it is such a popular major (that’s usually the case at most top universities because elite universities attract a lot of pre-law students and the most popular majors for pre-law students are Econ and Political Science), but as Christine pointed out, there are small classes in Political Science too and faculty will make the effort. </p>
<p>As for graduate school placement, I trust Michigan matches UVa and William and Mary nicely. Michigan’s placement success into the N14 Law schools equals those of Cal, Cornell, Georgetown and Penn. I doubt UVa and William and Mary do a better job. </p>
<p>Law School Admission Statistics for Georgetown Students (2007/2006)</p>
<p>Career Services, University of Pennsylvania</p>
<p>College of Literature, Science, and the Arts | Students</p>
<p>Career Center - Profile of Law School Admissions - UC Berkeley</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.career.cornell.edu/downlo...ide_2008kg.pdf[/url]”>http://www.career.cornell.edu/downlo...ide_2008kg.pdf</a> (turn to the last page)</p>
<p>Here’s a side-by-side comparison in admissions rates between those 5 elite universities (in parentathese, I provide the average GPA and LSAT score of the students admitted into the particular program from the university in question):</p>
<p>YALE UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL:
Cornell University: N/A
Georgetown University: 49 applied, 1 admitted, 2% acceptance rate (N/A)
University of California-Berkeley: 16 applied, 2 admitted, 13% acceptance rate (3.86 GPA, 169 LSAT)
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor: 33 applied, 3 admitted, 9% acceptance rate (N/A)
University of Pennsylvania: 62 applied, 5 admitted, 5% acceptance rate (N/A)</p>
<p>HARVARD UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL:
Cornell University: 138 applied, 14 admitted, 10% acceptance rate (3.93 GPA, 170 LSAT)
Georgetown University: 114 applied, 14 admitted, 12% acceptance rate (3.83 GPA, 173 LSAT)
University of California-Berkeley: 46 applied, 7 admitted, 15% acceptance rate (3.69 GPA, 169 LSAT)
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor: 104 applied, 17 admitted, 16% acceptance rate (3.92 GPA, 173 LSAT)
University of Pennsylvania: 152 applied, 21 admitted, 17% acceptance rate (N/A)</p>
<p>STANFORD UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL:
Cornell University: N/A
Georgetown University: 74 applied, 5 admitted, 7% acceptance rate (3.8 GPA, 170 LSAT)
University of California-Berkeley: 34 applied, 2 admitted, 6% acceptance rate (3.9 GPA, 173 LSAT)
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor: 54 applied, 6 admitted, 11% acceptance rate (4.0 GPA, 174 LSAT)
University of Pennsylvania: 98 applied, 8 admitted, 8% acceptance rate (N/A)</p>
<p>COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL:
Cornell University: 186 applied, 31 admitted, 17% acceptance rate (3.75 GPA, 173 LSAT)
Georgetown University: 142 applied, 33 admitted, 23% acceptance rate (3.76 GPA, 171 LSAT)
University of California-Berkeley: 48 applied, 17 admitted, 35% acceptance rate (3.76 GPA, 170 LSAT)
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor: 129 applied, 22 admitted, 17% acceptance rate (3.80 GPA, 172 LSAT)
University of Pennsylvania: 217 applied, 51 admitted, 23% acceptance rate (N/A)</p>
<p>NEW YORK UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL:
Cornell University: 185 applied, 40 admitted, 22% acceptance rate (3.76 GPA, 171 LSAT)
Georgetown University: 133 applied, 36 admitted, 27% acceptance rate (3.72 GPA, 172 GPA)
University of California-Berkeley: 44 applied, 16 admitted, 36% acceptance rate (3.69 GPA, 170 LSAT)
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor: 131 applied, 25 admitted, 19% acceptance rate (3.76 GPA, 172 LSAT)
University of Pennsylvania: 196 applied, 63 admitted, 32% acceptance rate (N/A)</p>
<p>UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA-BERKELEY LAW SCHOOL
Cornell University: 125 applied, 18 admitted, 14% acceptance rate (3.8 GPA, 170 LSAT)
Georgetown University: 101 applied, 9 admitted, 9% acceptance rate (3.82 GPA, 167 LSAT)
University of California-Berkeley: 87 applied, 17 admitted, 20% acceptance rate (3.77 GPA, 169 LSAT)
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor: 109 applied, 12 admitted, 11% acceptance rate (3.9 GPA, 170 LSAT)
University of Pennsylvania: 111 applied, 21 admitted, 19% acceptance rate (N/A)</p>
<p>UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO LAW SCHOOL:
Cornell University: 98 applied, 23 admitted, 23% acceptance rate (3.67 GPA, 171 LSAT)
Georgetown University: 76 applied, 11 admitted, 14% acceptance rate (3.71 GPA, 172 LSAT)
University of California-Berkeley: 35 applied, 13 admitted, 37% acceptance rate (3.74 GPA, 170 LSAT)
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor: 100 applied, 16 admitted, 16% acceptance rate (3.85 GPA, 173 LSAT)
University of Pennsylvania: 96 applied, 34 admitted, 35% acceptance rate (N/A)</p>
<p>UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA LAW SCHOOL:
Cornell University: 152 applied, 31 admitted, 20% acceptance rate (3.67 GPA, 169 LSAT)
Georgetown University: 100 applied, 16 admitted, 16% acceptance rate (3.64 GPA, 171 LSAT)
University of California-Berkeley: 26 applied, 5 admitted, 19% acceptance rate (3.76 GPA, 169 LSAT)
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor: 100 applied, 13 admitted, 13% acceptance rate (3.9 GPA, 168 LSAT)
University of Pennsylvania: 251 applied, 64 admitted, 25% acceptance rate (N/A)</p>
<p>UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN-ANN ARBOR LAW SCHOOL:
Cornell University: 133 applied, 28 admitted, 21% acceptance rate (3.72 GPA, 168 LSAT)
Georgetown University: 88 applied, 21 admitted, 24% acceptance rate (3.63 GPA, 168 LSAT)
University of California-Berkeley: 28 applied, 9 admitted, 32% acceptance rate (3.78 GPA, 170 LSAT)
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor: 324 applied, 91 admitted, 28% acceptance rate (3.69 GPA, 169 LSAT)
University of Pennsylvania: 113 applied, 36 admitted, 32% acceptance rate (N/A)</p>
<p>NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL:
Cornell University: N/A
Georgetown University: 94 applied, 20 admitted, 21% acceptance rate (3.64 GPA, 167 LSAT)
University of California-Berkeley: 19 applied, 0 admitted, 0% acceptance rate (N/A)
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor: 135 applied, 23 admitted, 17% acceptance rate (3.68 GPA, 168 LSAT)
University of Pennsylvania: 104 applied, 31 admitted, 30% acceptance rate (N/A)</p>
<p>UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA LAW SCHOOL:
Cornell University: 128 applied, 32 admitted, 25% acceptance rate (3.77 GPA, 170 LSAT)
Georgetown University: 101 applied, 22 admitted, 22% acceptance rate (3.61 GPA, 169 LSAT)
University of California-Berkeley: 23 applied, 3 admitted, 13% acceptance rate (3.98 GPA, 172 LSAT)
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor: 95 applied, 25 admitted, 26% acceptance rate (3.79 GPA, 171 LSAT)
University of Pennsylvania: 101 applied, 22 admitted, 22% acceptance rate (N/A)</p>
<p>CORNELL UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL:
Cornell University: 229 applied, 70 admitted, 31% acceptance rate (3.61 GPA, 166 LSAT)
Georgetown University: 74 applied, 31 admitted, 42% acceptance rate (3.57 GPA, 166 LSAT)
University of California-Berkeley: 22 applied, 4 admitted, 18% acceptance rate (3.67 GPA, 168 LSAT)
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor: 78 applied, 22 admitted, 28% acceptance rate (3.69 GPA, 166 LSAT)
University of Pennsylvania: 87 applied, 29 admitted, 33% acceptance rate (N/A)</p>
<p>DUKE UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL:
Cornell University: 147 applied, 50 admitted, 34% acceptance rate (3.73 GPA, 170 LSAT)
Georgetown University: 94 applied, 31 admitted, 33% acceptance rate (3.72 GPA, 170 LSAT)
University of California-Berkeley: 26 applied, 11 admitted, 42% acceptance rate (3.77 GPA, 172 LSAT)
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor: 95 applied, 28 admitted, 29% acceptance rate (3.75 GPA, 171 LSAT)
University of Pennsylvania: 120 applied, 40 admitted, 33% acceptance rate (N/A)</p>
<p>GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL:
Cornell University: 245 applied, 66 admitted, 27% acceptance rate (3.64 GPA, 169 LSAT)
Georgetown University: 323 applied, 95 admitted, 29% acceptance rate (3.64 GPA, 167 LSAT)
University of California-Berkeley: 56 applied, 24 admitted, 43% acceptance rate (3.64 GPA, 164 LSAT)
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor: 194 applied, 39 admitted, 20% acceptance rate (3.72 GPA, 168 LSAT)
University of Pennsylvania: 241 applied, 84 admitted, 35% acceptance rate (N/A)</p>
<p>I’m talking overall, because I know that W&M has the highest for any public college collectively in terms of graduate acceptance. (79 for med, above 80 for law, and in the 70s for education). A lot of that is because it’s a small college though, so it won’t have a huge amount of weight on my decision. I’m sure for top grad schools such as the ones you are listing, it is a lot lower, but I consider admission into any graduate school for law or medicine a huge achievement. I’m definitely going to wait until admitted students’ day and another visit to Ann Arbor, but as of right now, I think William and Mary will give me (personally) a better opportunity for med and law because of the excellent advising and professor interaction. </p>
<p>If Michigan is considered so prestigious in all three of these majors, I’m sure the professors there have pretty good relationships with the students as well and the advising will also be good. I really want to sit in for a class, particularly a discussion based class.</p>
<p>Actually Ahmed, Michigan’s overall placement into Law school is also 80%…if not higher. It was 82% last year.</p>
<p>[College</a> of Literature, Science, and the Arts | Students](<a href=“http://www.lsa.umich.edu/advising/advisor/prelaw/um_stats]College”>http://www.lsa.umich.edu/advising/advisor/prelaw/um_stats)</p>
<p>(scroll down to the bottom of the page)</p>
<p>Michigan and UVA are pretty big, they both get graduates into top schools–even though, UVA gets A LOT more people into UVA Law than Michigan into Michigan Law, which is good for UVA grads as UVA Law is a top law school. Here are the statistics, look for yourself. Also, the fact that Michigan students have an 80% acceptance rate, is pretty meaningless unless they’re going to top law schools. Pretty much everyone that wants to go to law school CAN go to A law school…not necessarily a top one. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.career.virginia.edu/students/preprof/prelaw/lawstats_2008.pdf[/url]”>http://www.career.virginia.edu/students/preprof/prelaw/lawstats_2008.pdf</a></p>