Mid-term wake up call for freshman engineering student

College Majors Engineering Majors
1

<p>Hi all,
I am writing for advice, tips, humor, anything to help council my son who has just taken his first Ivy League Engineering mid-terms and is devastated thinking he 'probably failed', and perhaps has in his Calc upper level course [he AP tested out of the first level]. He has scheduled himself with even more courses than he needed to, as he is trying to apply to a dual-degree program in the spring with Business. This means on top of all of the killer Eng courses, he's added another business course and a lab. He didn't really stop there, as once his feet hit campus he joined the marching band, ran for student government, and several other groups/committees that he wanted to become involved in. He did however make studying his first priority, is not a partier, and has led this sort of very scheduled lifestyle for many years, with great success. Our public high school is very competative, just named #1 in our state in some poll, and my son was in the top 10. </p>

<p>Now reality has set in, which my husband and I were worried about. I cautioned him about the E/Cs, pacing himself, and never waiting until the last minute to study. I encouraged him to find/create study groups, etc. He seemed to be on track.</p>

<p>So anyway, most of this is to be expected, but for us the learning curve is related to what can you expect as an engineering student for grades, classes, etc. It sounds like it is normal [if you can call it that] to have half the class fail exams, etc. but I have to tell you, my son will never accept being a part of that group willingly. He was almost despondant when I talked to him yesterday, feeling that his grad school ambitions had been dashed, because of this first set of mid-terms. I know, it is sort of funny, but really it's not. He's an amazing kid with far reaching vision, and way too tough on himself. While he is focusing on engineering, he also loves the humanities and that is the key reason why he chose this school. He had been offered great things at other schools, but really wants a well rounded liberal arts education, while earning engineering and business degrees. Currently the closest course he has to liberal arts is his Bio-Engineering class...yes, that's a joke, but that's how he put it, since the professor does have them write papers, which he enjoys very much.</p>

<p>Forgive the long diatribe. Just want to somehow cheer my son up. He's your typical shell-shocked freshman who's been used to getting As all of his life, but working for them, and now he's with all of the other top 10 kids, who are also getting killed in engineering, and he's worried about his gpa. He knows he would be doing great gradewise in another major, and definitely has to suck it up when it comes to engineering, but we just need a baseline. He's not ready to jump ship or anything, just feeling a bit derailed, as he feels his future, as he envisions it, is being changed and he's feeling a bit out of control. </p>

<p>Any tips, quips, or help is greatly appreciated.</p>

2

<p>First of all, it sounds like he doesn't actually know how he did on the mid-terms yet. He should wait until he actually knows how he did to react.</p>

<p>Messing up a few exams - or a few classes - or a term or two - doesn't necessarily ruin your life or your future. Even if your ambitions are very high. Believe me, I know. It does make it a little harder. But having been challenged also means that you have a skillset that other people don't (and I'm not even thinking of academics here, but personality traits and experiences to draw on), and that you can keep your head and find your way through the openings while the people around you who never struggled are flailing. He's getting his flailing out of the way now, while it's a relatively benign time to do it. How much worse would it be for him if he cruised through undergrad, and was in grad school or on the job, and the flailing hit him then?</p>

<p>If it turns out that he did do badly, he can learn to be proactive about fixing it! If he's not going to office hours, he should try doing so, and he should look into tutoring availability.</p>

<p>Double majors are overrated. He may want to consider a business minor or something instead. It sounds like he values flexibility in his education and that is one of the reasons he chose the school - is double-majoring, which substantially reduces flexibility, really in his best interest? Isn't that undermining his reasons for having picked this school?</p>

3

<p>Dear Jessiehl,
Thanks so much. I totally agree about the future, and being proactive. We started to brainstorm that together yesterday. He was a bit grumpy, sounding a bit like Eyore, but I tried to encourage him. He did mess himself up by making his schedule so crazy and tight. He even has 7 straight hours of classes on Fridays, with no breaks for eating. I was annoyed with him when he did it, so he definitely has to pay the piper now and stop complaining. He is not a quitter though and once he gets over the shock of everything, he will get right to adjusting his action plan to help meet his goals.</p>

<p>I have encouraged him to drop one of his extra curricular sports, since it really seems to be only further raising his stress/workload, with practices, etc. and already he misses one a week, due to band practice. I encouraged him to go to the gym instead, when he can, rather than have the pressure of a team counting on you, when you can only give 50%. Better to do less, at a higher level than more, always feeling guilty like you're not doing enough.</p>

<p>We'll definitely talk about the dual major. Thanks for the advice on that. You're right, and he does want to be able to take advantage of the humanities, and is going crazy not having any space for history, languages, literature. He wants engineering and business, but he also is a great writer, etc. I know whatever he does he'll do great, and as a mom I've tried to keep out of it, but in my heart, as a medical professional myself, I see a great physician in him. I get slammed by my husband's family if I even mention this, as they are all MIT type engineers and assume my son is the same. It's hard to live up to legacy. [sorry, don't mean to sidetrack here, best stick to mid-term woes focus!]</p>

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<p>I've see this many times...not just from freshman engineers either. For some reason we seem to enjoy making our lives as tough as possible. My advice to your son is to make a list of what is most important to him. School is obviously top of the list but he should decide how important a dual major really is to him. I agree that he should simply get a business minor if it's that important to him. Dual major won't get him any farther, especially because he will probably just do an MBA if he goes into business. </p>

<p>That being said he should really look at this list and whatever is on the bottom he should eliminate. This might be a sport, club, band, a job..whatever. Freshman year is rather easy compared to future years. If he's failing all his midterms there's two possibilities. He either has underestimated the difficulty of his classes and did not give himself enough time to prepare academicaly. Or he is not cut out for engineering. </p>

<p>I'm willing to bet it's the first option due to the situation you've described. This should definatly be a wake up call to your son that he needs to focus on a few things not try and do everything and spread himself thin.</p>

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<p>Your son sounds a lot like my son. He flipped out after his first calculus and physics midterms, then he hit his stride. He gave up on the idea of a double major. It is just too much on top of engineering. He also narrowed down his extra curriculars to just marching band and fraternity. He made friends with other engineering majors in the band and frat, and they bolstered each others' confidence. Positive thinking is key. My son graduated last June, and is now in engineering grad school. He is glad that he stuck it out.</p>

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<p>Dear JoeJoe,
Thanks so much. I think he truly took on way more than he realized was realistic, so it is a learning curve. I'm sure he didn't flunk all of his mid-terms, but he did flunk the Calc/Math II. He just texted me a minute ago and told me he got an 88 on his Econ, which he was pleased about, given the average was in the low 70s. Will have to wait to hear on the rest, hopefully soon.<br>
Great idea on the list. We've been talking about it, but perhaps writing it down and making it tangible will help even more. He already told me that he recently set up a study schedule for himself, which had to be aborted in part due to mid-terms this week, but he is on the right track. Seeing profs/advisors is also a high priority. They seemed so supportive during orientation, even giving the freshman double layered advisors and ensuring parents they were going to take 'good care' of the kids.<br>
Thanks again.</p>

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<p>Dear UCLA Band mom,
Congrats on your son's graduation :) That seems so far away today, but I know it will be here in a flash. The dual-major he hopes for may not be exactly what he truly needs/wants to achieve his goals, so it is good to have this wake up call early. He hasn't heard about his physics yet...oh dear, hope that went well. I think he felt okay about it, and he is just coming off of AP physics last year with an amazing teacher, so that is a plus. The math/calc thing is tough. For all the 800s and perfect scores on tests he's received, math has always given him agita at times. He has to really study hard for it, and perhaps his heart is not in it, the way it is with some typical math geniuses/nerds/prodigies ;) It's not that he doesn't like it, he does, but at times is a bit to endure. It was the only thing he re-tested in the SATs, and did so pretty successfully both on re-takes and subject tests, as well as AP exams. He has the brains, just needs to really give the extra push. </p>

<p>Agree about the extra-curriculars, though I know he'll have a hard time letting some things go, but he needs to. He loves the govt stuff, enjoys the band, and being an Eagle Scout has this volunteerism gene that won't quit sometimes. ;)</p>

<p>I think if he does hone in his overwhelming schedule, he will feel better, and he will need all the energy he has to focus on the already demanding engineering program.</p>

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<p>The first thing I would tell your son is that it's impossible for him to determine if he failed an exam or not based on his gut because there's no telling how the rest of the class did. Sure it's disheartening to see your first 60, but when the class average is a 50 you feel a lot better (those kinds of averages are pretty common in engineering). If he cannot think in those terms, he's going to feel like crap for 4 years.</p>

<p>If it is any consolation, classes may get harder as you go along but the grading gets easier. This may be different at a place like Harvard that has a 98% freshman retention rate, but they put you through the wringer in intro calc/physics courses to weed people out. After you pass this gauntlet, they ease up and you can concentrate on getting what you want out of the class.</p>

<p>Finally, it seems like his eyes were bigger than his stomach when it comes to activities. He might need reminding that he's going to college to get a job also, so while getting good grades might be his priority, i'll be frank: Engineering curricula do not prepare you for engineering; You have to do a bit of legwork yourself and take an interest outside class. Which engineering discipline is he thinking about? I only know EE, but he may want to consider joining organizations such as the IEEE and ACM if he wants to be an EE also. The ACM programming competitions were boatloads of fun, and IEEE has its own perks.</p>

<p>Best of luck to your son. I'm sure he has the discipline to adapt if need be.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
The first thing I would tell your son is that it's impossible for him to determine if he failed an exam or not based on his gut because there's no telling how the rest of the class did. Sure it's disheartening to see your first 60, but when the class average is a 50 you feel a lot better (those kinds of averages are pretty common in engineering). If he cannot think in those terms, he's going to feel like crap for 4 years.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Maybe it's just my school but the only classes that I have that still curve tests are physics. My calc/diffEQ, major classes, humanities do not curve tests.</p>

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<p>I once received a 12% on a dynamics exam. The guy in front of me got a 4%. We're both engineers now, gainfully employed, making money, doing just fine.</p>

<p>First point: Engineering's tough, and the exams are also tough. You can think you've failed but really, everyone else has failed also. A lot of places, it's just a matter of who's failed the <em>least</em>-- that person gets an A.</p>

<p>I went to my advisor absolutely pulverized in the middle of my first semester. I'm so bad at engineering, I'm getting C's and I've never done that before, this is terrible and I don't understand anything, maybe I should change majors. He said to drop the class I was having the most trouble with, take it again the next semester, and to cut myself a little slack-- I'd just gotten to college, I was taking tough intro courses, and I really hadn't even gotten into what engineering <em>was</em>. He told me to give it a chance. I did. I'm an engineer now, gainfully employed, making money, doing just fine.</p>

<p>Second point: I can't even count the number of times that this thread has popped up on these forums. I hear this all the time from engineering students. Engineering's really hard, everyone does poorly in at least a class or two, and freshman and sophomores sit in their rooms and suffer in silence, thinking they're the only ones who're messing things up. If you don't like engineering and don't want to do it anymore, that's one thing. Giving it up because you're boffing a class or two, though... Just give it a chance. Set priorities, figure out what you need to drop in order to succeed in your highest priority endeavors, and give it your best shot.</p>

<p>Best of luck to your son... This is really, really common, and it's not a future indicator of success or failure.</p>

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<p>We had a similar experience last year with computer science. We did have a mandate that he could not join a fraternity or marching band the first year whuich helped a little.
He had all the high merits required to be a direct admit into the computer engineering program.
The required writing course (no matter how you scored on your sat) was killing his time. That left less time for the engineering, CS and math courses. One of our biggest mistakes was starting with Calculus 2 (he made a 5 on the AP exam). They assumed everyone could do some kind of proofs he had not had in HS. Also, they wanted the C++ programs written their way not how he learned in the past. Throw in a few grad students who could not explain in english and you had a set up for stress. He also couldn't figure how some kids in the dorm started their weekends on Thursday afternoon (poly sci and english majors not premed or engineering)
There was a minor meltdown and some less than stellar semester grades. After the fact, we learned many kids in engineering get a C here or there and the classes were not curved.
We had a mandate that if he did not have a B average first year he would not return. ($50K a year). Well we ended up changing our expectations and he changed his. So far this year it is a little better (we hope) despite midterms last week with Norwalk virus wiping out 300 kids. It is hard when you have 3 labs and they have some sort of physics class 5 days a week.
One positive side is that at this private school they want you to succeed and try to have tutoring/help sessions. At the UC's he was accepted at half the kids drop out of engineering and premed during the first two years.</p>

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<p>He doesn't have to lower his standards, people still do get A's in engineering, even in the elite engineering programs. He does however have to realize that he'll have to work harder, probably much harder to get those A's. I would:</p>

<ol>
<li>Pick 1 or 2 extra-curricular activities that he has to have.</li>
<li>goto office hours, when he's not understanding, this is very important. </li>
</ol>

<p>In high school, teachers feed you information and test within specific boundaries. In college, it's a drastically different way of learning, this is amplified in engineering programs, because the classes are all math/science, precise studies, there's a fine line between understanding and not understanding, so if he's not understanding, he needs to get help, quickly. He'll get through it like everybody else, but it won't be easy and fun for the most part.</p>

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<p>@CapeCodLady8,</p>

<p>What your son is experiencing is fairly common. At a surface level, perhaps all he needs to do is just cut back to maybe one EC and four or five classes, until he gets acclimated to the demands of college.</p>

<p>However, in your post you mention that your son really wants a well-rounded liberal arts education ... while engineering schools certainly offer liberal arts, the focus tends to be on engineering. I won't touch the "it's easier to get high grades in liberal arts than engineering" issue, but your son may be happier in a liberal arts major that allows for more freedom in course selection and (generally speaking) interactions with people from a broader cross-section of academic disciplines. Engineering tends to be specialized, especially when you start getting into upper-division subjects.</p>

<p>Another thing to consider (if you have enough money) is that your son may be better served by taking an extra year to graduate. That way he can take a more normal courseload which may give him more time to participate in ECs.</p>

<p>Finally, on the general topic of studying, this thread from some time ago may shed some light:</p>

<p>How</a> do you study? How fast do you process info?</p>

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<p>If you go to school full-time, guess what, it's full-time. And then, you need to study.</p>

<p>His schedule is just to busy, and he hasen't even gotten to the core classes yet. He should expected his course load to pick up once he starts taking engineering courses. </p>

<p>With all those activities I also worry for his mental well-being as their seems to be no time for friends or casual activities. I agree with the rest of the posters who say he should limit his EC to 1 or 2 and pick up better study habits. He went to school to do what? To learn engineering and business, or to play in the band? Also, I see no reason why he can't do both engineering and business, I just don't see why. And that's a different discuss had many times on this board.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
In high school, teachers feed you information and test within specific boundaries. In college, it's a drastically different way of learning, this is amplified in engineering programs, because the classes are all math/science, precise studies, there's a fine line between understanding and not understanding, so if he's not understanding, he needs to get help, quickly.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, I sometimes wonder if students would be better served in college if the style of teaching was more like high school. As I mentioned, it's fairly common to have students who aced HS get hosed in college, and wonder what it is they are doing wrong. Theý're not necessarily doing anything wrong - it's just that the expectations have changed. At least for me, some differences between HS and college were that in HS, the same teacher usually taught the class every day, a syllabus was followed, and homework assignments (graded by the teacher) were both regular (sometimes every night) and representative of what was on exams. (Some) professors are quite brilliant in their fields, but not necessarily good teachers (and not necessarily good at identifying what a student's problems are). TAs have taken the classes more recently, but possibly from other teachers, who may have stressed different topics within a subject.</p>

<p>Some people think the HS approach is either boring or doesn't identify the most talented students. However, I wonder if it is a better approach, especially if it leads to overall better learning and retention.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Some people think the HS approach is either boring or doesn't identify the most talented students. However, I wonder if it is a better approach, especially if it leads to overall better learning and retention.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>HS teaches you the basic skills required to work and behave in society. And, it also serves a social outlet.</p>

<p>College teaches you to think/learn and become a professional. It is a higher learning institution that is not meant to shove facts down your throat to be regurgitated later like HS. University is not about retention, it is about mental development.</p>

<p>Universities guide you in developing your mind to be critical, analytical, opinionated, etc. in a logical fashion. The format of the education is designed in such away to achieve this. A professor is a mentor, a body of knowledge, and an experienced educator. Not a homework assigner and test grader.</p>

<p>Once you get out of college and get into your career you will find yourself describing a bad job as being like HS. I personally love HS and had a great time, but it was a joke as far as education and professionalism was concerned.</p>

<p>HS is not a better format to teach people to be independent, professional adults. It will, however, destroy arrogance, humble the heck out of you, and teach you what maturity really is.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Once you get out of college and get into your career you will find yourself describing a bad job as being like HS.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, I have been out of school for many years. My point of reference may be somewhat different than most of yours, since I was a HS student in the mid-to-late 1970s. But I did go to a competitive HS (it's necessary to take a standardized exam to attend). All that aside, I think the quality of education was higher in my HS than in my undergraduate (although the exposure to new technologies was much higher).</p>

<p>
[quote]
Universities guide you in developing your mind to be critical, analytical, opinionated, etc. in a logical fashion. The format of the education is designed in such away to achieve this. A professor is a mentor, a body of knowledge, and an experienced educator. Not a homework assigner and test grader.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But generally speaking, you don't have direct, one-on-one access to the professor in the lecture setting. You have that (sometimes) in the professor's office hours, but you don't have the opportunity for the type of focused, directed learning that takes place in a smaller classroom with a teacher that knows all of the students, how well they're doing, etc.</p>

<p>Maybe I'm just biased, but I really felt like I learned more in HS.</p>

<p>Actually, an idea I've thought about is for engineering and science students to have private teachers, such as music and art students have. It's not quite the same as a professor's office hours, because the private teacher is more acquainted with the students' strengths and weaknesses, and can give more structured assistance.</p>

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<p>gthopeful,
I had to smile at the Harvard retention rate citing. I actually looked those numbers up this morning, just to reassure myself now. I was pleasantly surprised that they do graduate 95% of the students at his school, within 5 years I believe. Sounds good to me. I'm not worried that he cram everything in in 8 semesters, and in fact, one of the programs that he was offered was a 5 yr BSE/MS. He turned that down for this school though. He will figure it out. It is so encouraging to hear about the dreadful scores though...how an awful grade, could be the A. He does need to talk to other students, but as someone mentioned, they're probably all sulking quietly in their rooms today. </p>

<p>I am particularly encouraged to hear that so many folks failed Calculus. He did get a 5 on his AP Calc BC, but obviously it wasn't enough to jump right into the next level without alot of preparation. My son is hyper-diligent though, so I'm sure he's going to go crazy doing everything he can to turn things around. He needs to have some middle ground too, and have some fun. </p>

<p>Many of the moms I've spoken to whose kids are all freshman are beaming about how happy their kids are at college, etc. Well, that was the case for us, until about a week ago...which I've also heard happens, six weeks into the semester when the honeymoon is ending. Of course none of my friends kids are in Engineering. Many are taking general liberal arts, political science, etc. and some have even said that it is 'easy'. Ugh.</p>

<p>And yes, my son's eyes were bigger than his stomach, and honestly his goals are already set for years down the road...which can be admirable for an 18 year old, but he also needs to realize it doesn't all happen in a day, and certainly not without a whole lot of work. Maybe I should suggest a little stronger that he reign things in a bit. He's been so independent, maybe he just needs a touch of parental wisdom to allow himself to set better limits. I also sent him a link to a CC Cafe thread from a current freshman who's feeling a bit overwhelmed as well.</p>

<p>Who knows. He'll be home in the flesh tomorrow night, so we'll get a better feel as to how gloomy he really is. It's hard communicating with occasional chats and text messages, and we've tried not to bug him at all with phone calls, unless he iniates them or it seems like an appropriate time to call.</p>

<p>Thanks so much...</p>

19

<p>All of my son's current classes, except Econ are scaled, I believe. It is much better when they are not, in my opinion. I used to dread the curve in college. So hearing that you got a 16, but the average grade was a 9, is so tough to understand at first. Hopefully he'll have some better news tomorrow. Math was real though, he bombed, even though the final grades have not been posted. He was grumbling something about vectors that he forgot, and said that the calc part itself was not hard at all, he just 'screwed it up'....or something to that effect...it wasn't a time for me to ask questions, actually so I just let it drop.</p>

20

<p>Thanks, Yagottabelieve. Yes, I think he just needs to stick to what is required and stop trying to be super-student. That may have played well in high school, but not so much with these core courses. He will be registering for his spring courses soon, so we'll have to go over that. I'm not sure if I mentioned before but this mid-term he failed, is only worth 10% of his grade, which is really a good thing. He does have time to turn things around, with alot of work. I told him it's going to be ugly until Christmas break, then he'll hopefully get renewed, and start again in the spring. The spring semesters seem to always be better[from my experience], and the courses, while a number are still core, some will be more varied.<br>
thx again.</p>