<p>My experience on full aid at the same school Mini attended was a great one and I made lifelong friends from all walks of life, never feeling uncomfortable. Yet I do believe being a student serving meals to peers in on campus dining would make me uncomfortable.</p>
<p>I really hope kids are not avoiding schools because they fear kids there with wealth will be snobs. It worries me that avoiding what might be uncomfortable will limit their life options and opportunities. Should the go to the local state with all the kids from high school and remain in the same town for life? As anita said, try not to show your biases and fears and send them off to a great school with confidence.</p>
<p>If I were going to fear any schools it would not be the top ones which have the endowments to buy diversity. I would worry about lesser schools which have lower percentages of kids on aid and better fit the description of country clubs for the rich.</p>
<p>Our S is still in high school, and is homeschooled, but he's recently noticed that in his different activities he moves in different circles of wealth. Our church is attended by many affluent families, and he feels a bit jealous when he hears his friends there talk about the new cars they are getting when they turn 16. </p>
<p>At one homeschool class he attends, he finds himself among the "struggling middle class" students. He found he needed to scale back talking about the (slim) possibility he has of going on 2 overseas trips and a national conference this summer (we would not be paying full freight for any of them). Most of the kids there won't have opportunities like that.</p>
<p>In his homeschool teen group, the families mostly live at about the same level as us. Their houses are like ours, and most of them plan on attending college at state universities.</p>
<p>This has been great for him as he is learning what kinds of things might make someone of higher or lower circumstances uncomfortable. In the same way that he's learned to be careful of bragging around those less fortunate than he, he's also learned not to say things which would make the wealthier kids uncomfortable....things like, "No way would my parents buy me a new car!"</p>
<p>From attending this wealthier church, our whole family has been surprised to learn that wealthy people can be genuinely warm and caring, and that all of them we have met there seem not one bit concerned about anyone else's social standing, how they dress, or anything else. So maybe it was me, the middle class person, who was really the snob!</p>
<p>"Well, I must say, the sensitivity police were truly asleep asking one student to serve others. Did you volunteer for that job?"</p>
<p>Nope. All students on financial aid were given the job. Absolutely nothing wrong with working for one's dough. I actually worked my way through college by waiting tables in hotels during the summer. What was specifically different about this job is that non-scholarship students were afforded the opportunity to sit down in jackets and ties and eat with their wealthier classmates, while their poorer roommates were never afforded the same opportunity. </p>
<p>(Please note - two years later, the college did away with sit-down dinners.)</p>
<p>And if no one is talking about their wealth, since everyone knows about it anyway, a major educational opportunity is being sacrificed. It "may not be a problem", but why should it be a problem for students whose parents are paying the full freight? It's not a matter of who is being a snob or who is not, who is friendly or who is not, who is generous or who is not - it IS about an opportunity to understand how wealth, poverty, and everything in-between works in American society. (And why in the world should wealthy folks be concerned about how poor ones dress? :eek:)</p>
<p>These are, after all, educational institutions. (If they are talking about it, I don't take that automatically to mean it is a good thing.)</p>
<p>At one of the two colleges I attended, serving in the dining hall was an option, but I don't know of any schools where that's the only on-campus job available to work-study students. Even very sensitive students don't usually feel uncomfortable about "serving" other students by, say, scanning out their books in the library (a job common to most campuses). Some on-campus jobs are considered quite prestigious and sought after by many students, on fin aid or not, including being an RA, working in a science lab, or being a research assistant.</p>
<p>It is a long time ago, but I think what I felt is that the college prided itself on the "opportunities for interchange" that happened specifically as a result of their residential college set-up, viewed it as intrinsic to the education being offered, and then turned around and defined those options by class position.</p>
<p>Now don't get me wrong - I am strongly IN FAVOR of folks being able to work their way through school. I did, and learned heaps that way. (Though, frankly, I think all campuses would be healthier if there was an expectation that EVERYONE, rich and poor alike, had to work.) </p>
<p>Thankfully, those days at my alma mater are well past.</p>
<p>My S called home one day, excited that, as a middle-class student attending an elite LAC, he had finally "broken the code" as to what differentiates himself from wealthier friends. It's not so much the amount of money, but the role it plays in their daily lives. Specifically, although he'd always imagined wealthy people "alwasy" thought about money, the opposite was true. Money does NOT enter into their everyday decision-making process, he was discovering, whereas he (middle class) always factored it in to his choices.
As his example, an EC musical group suddenly decided to leave campus 12 hours earlier, even though that necessitated a stay at a motel on the way. To him alone, that motel stop would have influenced his decision as to when to depart. Even though both he and they could afford their share of the motel rooms, it never entered their minds. He said that's the difference. Note that he wasn't left out! But it simply was an educational moment for him to understand how that all works. </p>
<p>On the topic of dining halls, I appreciated the cooperative dining option at Oberlin College, whereby students cooked, served and cleaned for each other with hourly rotations amounting to around 8-10 hours wekly. By lottery, any student, regardless of financial background, could enter a "co-op" as their residential or dining option. If they did, they saved their families money on the housing/dining. It provided many of the same social bonding rewards of frats and soroities, which the college does not permit. Some students add this to their on-campus jobs for huge savings. Others may come from wealthy magnate families. It certainly takes the "edge" off of serving food to know that all comers are welcome. The system began with several Co-ops in the l960's but has now expanded to around 20 units across the campus. Nice.</p>
<p>Students' lives are going to differ in MANY ways-- money is just one of them. Some previous posters made good points re: parents sensitizing their children to focus on the differences, the negatives. All we need to do is open a paper or turn on world news to see incredibly fortunate we are compared to people in many other parts of the world.</p>
<p>
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Specifically, although he'd always imagined wealthy people "alwasy" thought about money, the opposite was true. Money does NOT enter into their everyday decision-making process, he was discovering, whereas he (middle class) always factored it in to his choices.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's pretty much the point I was trying to get at with my post. It's not so much the fact that you encounter actual snobbery, it's all the stuff that you realize that they never think about and you do that kind of unnerves you after a while. </p>
<p>And I don't think it's so much the people who are obviously rich vs. the people who are obviously not...it's the people who are really upper-middle-class but think they're middle-class and perfectly normal, and anyone who isn't either super rich or on welfare is like them. The really wealthy ones, I would think, would be more aware of this fact.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Specifically, although he'd always imagined wealthy people "alwasy" thought about money, the opposite was true. Money does NOT enter into their everyday decision-making process, he was discovering, whereas he (middle class) always factored it in to his choices.
[/quote]
I'm not sure how true that is. It sounds nice, it makes sense, and I assumed that it was the case until I got to college and found most of my experiences to be the opposite. I guess I come from a wealthy family. My parents have never told me how much they make, even a range, but I went to an expensive private school, and my sister and I are at private colleges and didn't apply for financial aid. When I left for college, I recognized that there would be people with a range of incomes and financial situations that I would have to be extra-sensitive to. I've found that in many cases, though, I spend more carefully than my poorer friends. My spending decisions are less impulsive, and I think about how much money I'm spending and on what. I have a couple of friends who are in very difficult financial situations, but they spend large amounts of money unnecessarily (on things I would never spend the money on, even though I have it), don't keep track of their spending, and don't save their money in intelligent ways. Meanwhile, I watch my spending, think carefully about larger purchses, keep multiple bank accounts including a high-yield CD, and work very hard during the summer months to make money. (One of my friends told me how much his family has to pay for tuition a quarter, and I could pay his year's tuition with money left over just from last year's summer job. He had a summer job and spent all of it on a large purchase.) Perhaps my friends without money were simply never taught how and how not to spend it; I'm not sure. I don't think that this is true universally, but I would be careful saying that the main difference between the wealthy and middle- or lower-class people is attention paid to spending. </p>
<p>My sisters are very careful with money, and most of my friends at my private school were similar. The main difference that I've seen between kids in well-off families is what parents pay for versus what kids are expected to pay for. There were a couple of times with my friends in high school where we went from one activity to something more expensive that I raised an objection to, but it always turned out that the kid suggesting the more expensive activity had money from mom or dad.</p>
<p>A couple of my friends here have complained about the fact that me and some other friends aren't on financial aid. Things come up sometimes that show that my family has more money than some of my other friends' families that I believe at times make them uncomfortable. At one point I was with two of my poorer friends who expressed how angry they were at our different financial situations, but I told them how many hours I worked during the summers and how careful I am with the money I have. Some of it may be snobbery or thoughtless spending on my part (though I've never been accused of either), but I think a lot of it comes down to anger at the fact that people are in different financial situations. I was angry when I found out that my high school friends' parents paid for many of their entertainments that mine did not, and my college friends are probably angry about the things that my family can afford to do (mainly travel).</p>
<p>Corranged, I don't think paying3tuitions meant that all rich kids were careless with money. But there is a very big difference between those kids who simply have whatever funds they want or need being supplied by parents; and those who either (like mine) are expected to fend for themselves for all the incidental costs of college, or those who receive only limited funds from home and must budget carefully. I found out midyear that my daughter had not purchased a text book for a class because she felt it was too expensive -- at that point I offered to buy it for her -- she ended up buying the book on her own. (She had originally arranged to share the book with a friend in the same class, but the friend wasn't very good about sharing). I know I hear gripes from my son about the costs of text books -- and my daughter was also frustrated at the end of the first semester when she had difficulty selling some of her books. Apparently she had been very careful all semester not to mark up her course pack for one course, knowing that the course would be given the following semester and would use the same materials -- and was disappointed that she could not recoup her costs on her pristine and very expensive set of materials. </p>
<p>My guess is that the majority of students at her school don't have to worry about the cost of their textbooks and aren't even aware that this is an issue for any of their classmates. Not so at my son's school - where 45% of the students are on Pell grants, and where there is definitely a vigorous market for used and reused books. </p>
<p>The question of "how much allowance" comes up again and again on these boards. My kids don't have an allowance at college; they have jobs. I'll bet that a lot of the families who consider themselves middle class and even who have kids on financial aid are sending a check every month, or replenishing a bank account -- or picking up the tab on many bills. I do pay for my daughter's cell phone (family plan), but that's about it.</p>
<p>I don't know why it shocks me every time I read this question. I'm afraid that assuming wealthy children are ill mannered snobs to be avoided at colleges is as ignorant as assuming all blacks will rob you and crossing the street.</p>
<p>Well, I don't feel as strongly about it as kirmum, but while I certainly commend those who worked through school/budgeted big-time/etc., I don't think that those who don't/didn't are automatically lesser people than those who do. My parents worked all throughout college, in addition to taking out loans, and while it certainly didn't kill them, they would have much rather had more free time to be the more typical college kid. I'm guessing that a decent amount of the people here would think of me as being spoiled financially, and I probably will not have a job when I go off to college next year, but that doesn't make me a snob or insensitive to other people's financial situations. </p>
<p>I'm not really sure what the appropriate way for wealthier students to act is, if it's not just to be sensitive to the fact that not everyone can splurge on expensive outings and that some of their classmates have to be careful with their money. I guess I don't really understand why it is a big deal that a lot of the students at Barnard, to use Calmom's example, aren't that interested in buying used books, beyond the fact that it makes it more difficult for those students who are on a tight budget (which I understand is a big deal for them--it just doesn't seem like snobbery to me).</p>
<p>Please don't go all defensive on me. Nobody said anybody was careless with money, snobbish or insensitive. It was simply the observation of differing levels of concern over small amounts of money. What loomed large to the middle-class kid (staying in a motel or not) was a no-brainer "sure, why not, let's go early" to wealthier kids. The "small change" factored into my son's decision-making process because it was large change to him. If alone, he'd have timed his travel for the day so there'd be no need for a motel. For the others, one hour was as good as another to leave town.
They were never mean about it. As I reported it, these were simply "eduational, aha moments" when my S began to understand where his thresholds differed from those of some classmates.
It was a discovery, one of thousands in those 4 years, about how others live. That's all.</p>
<p>
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Please don't go all defensive on me. Nobody said anybody was careless with money, snobbish or insensitive. It was simply the observation of differing levels of concern over small amounts of money.
[/quote]
Well,that's exactly the sort of things the kids run up against. If they speak up for themselves, everyone gets all huffy on them. If you go back up this thread you will see that there were a number of posts of a mostly reassuring nature, one parent posted a link to a US News article exploring the issue in depth, a student came along and described her feelings of being unnerved by the discrepancy in wealth, at about the same time I cross-posted and stated that there was a problem with "some" but definitely not "most" students, and said essentially that the OP's kid would find her niche.... and immediately after that I was roundly castigated by a student who made a point of highlighting her own prep school background and suggesting there must be something wrong with my kids for noticing when they are being treated rudely. </p>
<p>In a later post I commented about my daughter's frustration over the cost of text books.... and the response is, why should that be a big deal.</p>
<p>In other words... the feelings are not only are ignored, they are also invalidated and belittled. It doesn't matter how the kid <em>feels</em> when she has to struggle to make ends meet amidst all that wealth -- it's not the rich kid's fault, so she's got no right to have those feelings. (Much less voice them). It's intimidating. I think most students are going to learn to keep their mouths shut ... and then of course it is easy to deny that there is any sort of tension at all. See? No one else is complaining! We must be simply be malcontents blowing something absolutely trivial out of proportion.</p>
<p>H was from a poor inner-city high school in the South; he had a work-study job at Yale. Money was definitely an issue at times--he couldn't afford to travel with a group he belonged to, friends would sometimes offer to pay for things (weekend social activities, entertainment) he couldn't afford, but that got old, and they got tired of him always being worried about the cost of everything. "Can't play with the big boys, huh?" someone said to him once. People find their own level eventually, and there are plenty of free/cheap things to do on campus anyway. I'm sure anyone of any class can survive at these schools--and there is probably more diversity now than 20+ years ago. But, yes, there may be some uncomfortable moments. There may be times that poorer kids feel envious, frustrated, or pressured to spend what they don't have just to fit in or go along with a group. Observing different lifestyles will be an eye-opener if nothing else. And it works both ways--I'm sure some of the wealthy kids H took home to visit his family had their eyes opened, too.</p>
<p>While 450K in most of Cincinnati area will get you a nice home, in Indian Hill, it will only get you an empty lot w/o even a nail. Most the kids at school are from way above average income families. One of my D's classmate (a junior) had already took two oversea delivery trips to Germany for her sport car last summer. </p>
<p>Low income kids like mine, however, do not seem to mind much. Kids from rich families seemingly are typically decent and nice.</p>
<p>I think it's really encouraging to read all these posts, and it appears that college life can be an equalizer across "classes". However, back to the OP's original post, why is it that we think snobby/preppy when we think of Darmouth-Duke-Yale-Harvard? How do these stereotypes form and continue through the years?</p>
<p>I don't know about everyone else, but "Charlotte Simmons" comes to mind when I read this thread--Maybe that's why those schools are mentioned.</p>
<p>Someone early on mentioned that if your son/daughter doesn't need to be in the top frat/sorority, etc, they will not have a problem. </p>
<p>I do agree that there may be a small segment of a college's society that is difficult to break into without the "right prepschool background", but excluding that, there are plenty of other groups for anyone to fit into.</p>
<p>Academics and living together are great equalizers. Also athletics. If you aren't the best at your position you won't get the playing time. Middle class nephew, at Dartmouth, had lots of rich teammates but they all worked hard on the playing field and in the classroom. </p>
<p>N recalled one incident where he and a classmate, interning with N in NYC, went walking down Fifth Ave one day. She bought hundreds of dollars worth of clothes...N was amused, not anything more, when she called daddy in Texas to thank him. </p>
<p>DartYH have of course been prep school favorites for generations. They still are.</p>