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NO.</p>
<p>Most likely the child who has 40k of income, does not have assets.</p>
<p>The child whose family makes 140 K/yr must/should have planned their lives (also they had surplus $) to save and build a nest egg. If that child's family did not plan - whose fault is it?
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<p>Certainly not the fault of the child. In any event, your question dealt with favoritism not fault. Since you are now shifting the goalposts, can I assume you concede my earlier point?</p>
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no I do not agree that a system exists. The 568 group is comprised of only 28 colleges out of the 3500 institutions in this country. But, too your example, they do not agree on PRICE, only need. In my view, 'price' is net of free money provided by the colleges.
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<p>I bet those 28 colleges include a lot of the most elite schools. Further, I bet it's a lot more than 28 colleges that attend the College Board's regular meetings to discuss financial aid methods.</p>
<p>But anyway, there's no need to quibble over semantics. Call it a "system," a "procedure," a "policy" or whatever you want. It is what it is, and middle class kids have a legitimate grievance with it.</p>
<p>"NO.</p>
<p>Most likely the child who has 40k of income, does not have assets.</p>
<p>The child whose family makes 140 K/yr must/should have planned their lives (also they had surplus $) to save and build a nest egg. If that child's family did not plan - whose fault is it?"</p>
<p>New to these forums and haven't figured out the quote feature.</p>
<p>We are one of those slacker families that make over $140k per year and did qualify for some aid but not enough. The problem with the system as it currently exists is that it takes a snapshop of a family's financials. If we had been making that kind of money from the time ds was born we could have planned better but ds came home to a home of an undergrad and a grad student who then spent several years in acadamia and living on the edge of the poverty line. Also that income in MS is not the same as that income in Southern CA.</p>
<p>lskinner ... the court case already happened ... schools used to compare the admissions decisions and financial aid packages of specific applicants and a court case followed. The current process (or at least the original fundamentals) are the court approved settlement of that original case. You can file a case but you're going to have to make the case the previous result of a court case was a bad outcome.</p>
<p>Frankly as a consumer in the process I would like a consistant methodology ... it would be about the most transparent process I can imagine. All schools would determine EFC the same ... but each school for each applicant would decide how much of the need to fill and with what aid vehicles. I'm not sure how using similar formulas to define need restrains trade? To me, it would the fixing of the awards that would be the problem (and that is what the previous court case addressed).</p>
<p>(Total rathole - and designing this common approach to define EFCs would be incredibly tough to do ... how simple versus accurate should the process be? For example, to truly understand a family's ability to pay schools should collect financial info for all 18 years the students has been alive (did the families save), how to treat non-custodial parents?, how to treat parents who won't pay?, how to deal with retirement accounts, etc). It would be a pain ... but if we ever got to one "fair" system for figuringout EFCs I think that would be great for us the consumers.</p>
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lskinner ... the court case already happened ... schools used to compare the admissions decisions and financial aid packages of specific applicants and a court case followed. The current process (or at least the original fundamentals) are the court approved settlement of that original case.
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<p>I'm well aware of that. Again, I mentioned the collusive nature of college financial aid to defend my use of the word "system" and to pre-empt the "free market" argument.</p>
<p>lskinner - I do not concede your pre-emption of the free market argument. Not all schools use the same formula, and students can choose from a very large number of schools when they are applying. You don't like the way the determine aid at college A? Apply to college B.</p>
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You did not answer this question. Let me ask another way. What fraction of your yearly pre-tax income should your EFC be?
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<p>If I were king of the college finance world, I would eliminate financial aid entirely and cut tuition by about 75%. Between working, living cheaply, and taking out loans, even the poorest child can afford $10k per year for college.</p>
<p>When we have $42K of taxable income- that wasn't our AGI
For example last year- the income that was considered to be taxable was $49,000- our tax was about $7,000, but our AGI income which is listed on FAFSA is $79,000</p>
<p>Just using the calculator on finaid.org, gives us $17,000 in federal EFC.</p>
<p>I think before I complain about financial aid- I would like to see expenses for medical and housing costs more fully deductible- instead of just allowing you to add them, but they don't lower the tax.( I would also like to see what portion of my tax goes for education )</p>
<p>Our income has been much higher than normal, because H, has had forced overtime- three weekends every month. While this increases his pay, it is determential to our life (and his health , IMO) and we also don't get an increased income protection, even though it isn't possible for me to work as much as I want.</p>
<p>I realize that this could also be case with some who have increased incomes of over 6 figures. It may be a fairly recent thing- and they haven't been able to save as much as they are expected to. That isn't taken into consideration.</p>
<p>PROFILE, may consider additional expenses, but they also consider additional assets. Since our area has generally appreciated quite a bit with housing, we were expected to refinance our house, in order to access money for college.</p>
<p>While I understand the reasoning- that the money can be accessed, the percentage of income that is already being used for housing costs needs to be considered. Particulary when housing costs cannot easily be reduced, as in our situation, without moving out of the region- which of course would necessitate finding different jobs/schools, etc.</p>
<p>I wonder if there have been any articles on why so many families are in all interest mortgages, where they can't afford to pay on the principal.
IT can't be just because people have too many credit cards.</p>
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lskinner - I do not concede your pre-emption of the free market argument. Not all schools use the same formula, and students can choose from a very large number of schools when they are applying. You don't like the way the determine aid at college A? Apply to college B.
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<p>If airlines met every year to discuss pricing strategies, the Justice Department would be all over them like white on rice. If colleges are subject only to the morals of the marketplace, then they should also be subject to the same antitrust regulation. They should also pay real estate and property taxes just like every other business. They should pay their fair share for the national defense and for fire protection. </p>
<p>Just my humble opinion.</p>
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We are one of those slacker families that make over $140k per year and did qualify for some aid but not enough. The problem with the system as it currently exists is that it takes a snapshop of a family's financials. If we had been making that kind of money from the time ds was born we could have planned better but ds came home to a home of an undergrad and a grad student who then spent several years in acadamia and living on the edge of the poverty line. Also that income in MS is not the same as that income in Southern CA.
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<p>I totally agree. My income took a major hit 5 years ago when I started my own business. Right now, any extra money I get is used to pay down the debt I accumulated over the last 5 years. Hopefully in another 5 years I will be able to start saving money for college/retirement/whatever. My current income simply doesn't reflect what I could have saved.</p>
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If airlines met every year to discuss pricing strategies, the Justice Department would be all over them like white on rice
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umm ... go to any operations research conference and attend PhD talks on real-time pricing models (not that I would understadn anything beyond the first 2 slides) and the talks are doing exactly that ... defining the mechanics of how the system works. What they will not (and can not) share is the specific thresholds and decision rules they each use when they put the system into operation. In addition, some airlines sell their model to other airlines to use ... so sharing the system is quite legal, or lots of lawyers have missed a boon doogle.</p>
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umm ... go to any operations research conference and attend PhD talks on real-time pricing models (not that I would understadn anything beyond the first 2 slides) and the talks are doing exactly that ... defining the mechanics of how the system works. What they will not (and can not) share is the specific thresholds and decision rules they each use when they put the system into operation. In addition, some airlines sell their model to other airlines to use ... so sharing the system is quite legal, or lots of lawyers have missed a boon doogle.
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<p>Are these operations research conferences set up for the purpose of sharing airline pricing strategies? Are they attended primarily by airline representatives? Are they advertised to outsiders and are outsiders welcome? Do most airlines send a representative to each conference?</p>
<p>Are you contending that colleges' cooperation re: financial aid goes no further (analogously) to the operations research conferences and model sales you described?</p>
<p>"If we had been making that kind of money from the time ds was born we could have planned better"</p>
<p>It is all relative. The family snapshot of 40K is today. When their kids were born they would have been making less than 40K.</p>
<p>You should have planned better. In theory if you had a life style similar to family making 40K today for the last 18 years, you would have zero need. So stop complaining, you squandered the opportunity.</p>
<p>"even the poorest child can afford $10k per year for college."</p>
<p>is this a joke?</p>
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"even the poorest child can afford $10k per year for college."</p>
<p>is this a joke?
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<p>Absolutely not.</p>
<p>And here's the full sentence -- including the part that you conveniently omitted:</p>
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Between working, living cheaply, and taking out loans, even the poorest child can afford $10k per year for college.
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<p>(emphasis mine)</p>
<p>Too many people always seem to think that someone is scr*wing them. It's the old complaint excuse.</p>
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Too many people always seem to think that someone is scr*wing them. It's the old complaint excuse.
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<p>And too many people are all too willing to belittle and dismiss other peoples' legitimate grievances.</p>
<p>Just my humble opinion, of course.</p>
<p>Since when did any university owe any of us (as mere applicants) anything? </p>
<p>Is it not their endowment money to hand out as they see fit?</p>
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Since when did any university owe any of us (as mere applicants) anything?
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<p>In my opinion, the university owes quite a lot to the public. After all, we pay for the national defense -- the university does not. We pay for fire protection -- many universities do not. We pay for the FBI, the INS, and other organizations to keep the USA secure -- universities do not. Universities are permitted to cooperate in setting prices in ways that other organizations may not.</p>
<p>Universities have obtained all of these special privileges, and more, by making a commitment to serve the public. </p>
<p>Therefore the public has a moral right to demand that universities act justly and honorably. Universities must meet a higher standard than the mere "morals of the marketplace," which permit an actor to charge whatever the market will bear for services and spend money on whatever he or she wishes.</p>
<p>Just my humble opinion.</p>
<p>hopeful mom:</p>
<p>You might want to start a new thread, but my guess is that if she gets into one of those schools it will not be with a better financial aid package. </p>
<p>Williams, Middlebury and Vassar do not give out any merit aid and my guess is that coming off a wait list Oberlin will not give her any merit aid either. Chances are the need based packages will be similar or worse than what you have in hand.</p>
<p>You just have a really pricey group of schools there. Sorry! Good luck.</p>