<p>only a lawyer could argue with another lawyer :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
So what's "unfair"? That if you are not rich you can't afford to buy luxury items?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think that the "luxury" argument would be more apt if colleges charged the same tuition to all comers, take it or leave it. In that case, people would come to see Harvard like they see French Laundry or whatever - a luxury service for the elite. </p>
<p>Instead, places like Harvard seem to promote the fiction that money should not be a bar to attending. And they apparently do give reasonable financial aid to a few lucky lower class people to help promote their BS. Which is basically a slap in the face to everyone else.</p>
<p>If places like Harvard announced that they were no longer not-for-profit and instead were going to charge as much tuition as possible to make as much money as possible, I suspect that the "entitlement" mentality that people decry would disappear.</p>
<p>Just my humble opinion.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Question: Why is it that parents suddenly think their kids have an entitlement to a low-cost, affordable private education at the college level?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think that the problem is that places like Harvard promote the fiction that they are egalitarian and that money is not a bar to attending. If Harvard did not accept special treatment from the government (and in effect, the taxpayers) and did not claim or pretend to meet peoples' financial needs, people would probably gripe a lot less.</p>
<p>JMHO</p>
<p>"Harvard did not claim or pretend to meet peoples' financial needs"</p>
<p>But they do meet people' financial needs.</p>
<p>Private entities also have the right to give away some of their services or products for free or deeply discounted. (When lawyers do this, its called pro bono). In a free market, prices fluctuate and not everyone pays the same price. </p>
<p>Harvard apparently has decided that $60K annual income is the cutoff for full ride need based aid -- after that it's a sliding scale upwards that escalates pretty fast. I agree that its a shame that their p.r. suggests otherwise ... but it doesn't take much homework for a family with a $120K income to figure out that they would have to pay a whole lot of money to send their kids to Harvard. </p>
<p>I'm not disputing that it may make people feel bad -- we all wish we could have everything our hearts desire -- but I just don't think its such a "raw deal". Getting into the types of colleges that claim to meet 100% need is pretty tough as it is, so it is not like the true middle class (the families who are median income and below) can simply waltz right in and send their kids wherever they want. Given the standards required to get into the top colleges, all of their financial aid really is merit aid with a need component -- a kid can't get to the position to be considered unless the kid has exceptionally strong academic credentials and achievement.</p>
<p>Harvard et al actually do make it possible for all levels of income to attend--if those families are willing to take a steep cut in living standard (poor families don't have to, because they already live at a more depressed level than a socalled middle class family would after meeting their EFC.)</p>
<p>But many are willing to make that sacrifice. Many others are not. It's a choice. We value the education, so we took the reduced living standard. Others make different choices. Nice to have them.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But they do meet people' financial needs.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No they don't. Not everyone's. Not by any reasonable definition of the word "need."</p>
<p>
[quote]
Private entities also have the right to give away some of their services or products for free or deeply discounted. (When lawyers do this, its called pro bono). In a free market, prices fluctuate and not everyone pays the same price.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm actually an attorney, so I'm well aware of the concept of "pro bono." And in fact, I do large amounts of pro bono work. </p>
<p>To carry your analogy further though, suppose a law firm announced that nobody would be turned away based on their inability to pay; and suppose that law firm announced that it was devoting itself to serving the public and therefore was exempted from paying taxes; and suppose that law firm had billions of dollars in assets but paid no taxes on its revenues; and suppose that law firm was permitted to regularly meet with its competitors and discuss pricing strategies.</p>
<p>Now, what if the law firm's rates were sufficiently high that as a practical matter a lot of people could not afford them? Would those people have a legitimate complaint? Sure they would.</p>
<p>Just my humble opinion.</p>
<p>I have always had a problem with the "grant" part of financial aid. It is just another form of welfare. Extremely low-interest long-term loans make more sense from both a philosophical and financial standpoint. At least loan aid can be "recycled," thereby making more available to help both the low-income and the middle-class.</p>
<p>so this thread seems to revolving around lskinners question-
Do I, as a member of the privileged class in the US, not only living in one of the most expensive areas of the United States, but with a professional degree to boot, have a * right to complain that the colleges that I want my kids to attend, charge more than I want to pay?*</p>
<p>Sure- as a taxpayer- you are given the "right" to snark, or whinge, or rant about anything.</p>
<p>You can complain that you are appalled that denim at JCrew is now going for $99., that paying your dues in a top law firm wasn't worth $190K and that universities that have decided to lower their tuition only for those who can prove that they can't afford it.</p>
<p>But- generally when I complain I want someone to nod their head and say "damn girl!" So I choose the ear of someone who has been in a similar situation and knows what I am talking about.</p>
<p>Once they have heard my vent, they either help me move on, or share what tactic that they have used in that situation.</p>
<p>I don't decide to unload my frustration with being the mom of a toddler who is "too" imaginative, to someone who has been unsuccessful conceiving a child.
Or complain about trouble with architects and contractors hired to add a new floor to my vacation home, to someone who is having trouble just paying the mortgage on their starter house.</p>
<p>I certainly dont expect to hear a lot of poor you, or "life is unfair", if I am in the mood to whinge about how a business who offers subsidies to those who qualify, expect me to pay full price, if I am complaining to someone who receives a subsidy, but their purchase price is still a higher percentage of their income, than the full price would be to mine.</p>
<p>There are parents on the board who have $99,999 EFC. Or even $59,000EFC.
They generally recognize that need based aid is not going to be available at most colleges and adapt. Sure they want to gripe about it, but they also recognize that just by having that dilemma, puts them in the category of those with more choices than anyone.</p>
<p>Would it help anybody to understand the basic purpose of financial aid and possibly review the Econ 101 lesson about "diminishing returns?"</p>
<p>Research shows that there is no incremental value in terms of class mobility for those attending private universities vs. those attending public, with one exception: first-generation college students who attend selective private universities tend to do better than their peers who attend community college and/or public schools. If somebody is so unkind as to make me find the cite I will have to dig it up, but it has come up over and over again.</p>
<p>So....here's where I have no data, but I will go out on a limb and say that I do not hear the crowd who will see a real economic benefit for having their kids go private complain one way or another. The complainers are, if I may go further out on this limb, people who attended state schools and hope for better for THEIR kids. The thing is, if you grew up as the child of college educated parents you already started out on third base--you don't NEED Harvard or Amherst to pick the straw out of your hair, teach you what fork to use, and tell you to pull up your pants. Your parents already knew that type of cultural lore and passed it on to you. They probably have a social network that can get you started if you finish school and don't have a firm idea of what you want.</p>
<p>There is no social good to be accomplished by selective private schools wasting scarce financial resources on kids who have already achieved 90% of the class mobility that a college education provides, simply by being born to college educated parents.</p>
<p>The student population at selective private schools will continue to be a mix of the people who can shell out $45K per year and the people who can't afford to fly their kids home at Christmas, and there are good social reasons for it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Research shows that there is no incremental value in terms of class mobility for those attending private universities vs. those attending public, with one exception: first-generation college students who attend selective private universities tend to do better than their peers who attend community college and/or public schools. If somebody is so unkind as to make me find the cite I will have to dig it up, but it has come up over and over again.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>actually this is false. Programs such as inroads and seo are now categorizing the potential earnings for elite privates vs publics.</p>
<p>They give samples such as
1. Harvard
2. Michigan
3. Suny Albany
etc.</p>
<p>May not be the exact colleges, but they segregate the colleges as such. </p>
<p>It is rather meaningless, but some programs are trying to subjugate useless facts of data.</p>
<p>
[quote]
so this thread seems to revolving around lskinners question-
Do I, as a member of the privileged class in the US, not only living in one of the most expensive areas of the United States, but with a professional degree to boot, have a right to complain that the colleges that I want my kids to attend, charge more than I want to pay?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Kindly show me where I asked this "question." Thanks in advance.</p>
<p>Oh, and please answer the question I asked of you earlier:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Are you saying that nobody should ever complain about discrimination in college admissions ever?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Thanks in advance.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There is no social good to be accomplished by selective private schools wasting scarce financial resources on kids who have already achieved 90% of the class mobility that a college education provides, simply by being born to college educated parents.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It seems to me that this is essentially the "social levelling" argument that was discussed earlier in this thread. If elite colleges were truly in the business of bestowing their advantages on the children who would most benefit, then why are places like Stanford and Harvard admitting people like Chelsea Clinton or the Prince of Denmark? If anyone was born on third base, it's kids like this. And yet colleges not only admit these kids, they actually relax their standards if rumors are correct.</p>
<p>So it seems to me that social leveling is more of an excuse or rationalization than anything else.</p>
<p>Just my humble opinion.</p>
<p>"Not by any reasonable definition of the word "need.""</p>
<p>what is YOUR reasonable definition of the word "need'?</p>
<p>
[quote]
what is YOUR reasonable definition of the word "need'?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>In terms of college financial aid, an amount of money that will ensure that the applicant's family will be able to remain in its primary residence and retire reasonably comfortably. Put another way, if the amount of aid would require the applicant's family to sell the family house or gut the family retirement savings in order to pay for college, then the applicant's needs are not being met.</p>
<p>What is your definition?</p>
<p>"What is your definition?"</p>
<p>different than yours.</p>
<p>Ref#33</p>
<p>The way I read my post- I was summing up the statements that you have been making about costs- I wasnt using a direct quote.
& I did say that you could complain about what ever you wanted.</p>
<p>But just to let you know-
you are arguing with someone who is a high school dropout, who married a high school grad, who by putting education first managed to not only send her kids to private schools ( although one has now been attending public), but private schools who enroll children from families like Gates and Bezos ( along with Paul Allen and Howard Schulz all live in my county, but still don't increase the per capita income enough to raise it about 51st place- well below your county which ranked 21 of affluent places to live).</p>
<p>Even though sending them to private school was difficult, even with aid, we felt, and apparently rightly so, that private school could give them access to resources they didnt have otherwise. Our after tax income has been $40,000 or so, pretty consistent for the last decade, and without aid, our daughter wouldn't have been able to attend her college which charges over $36,000 for tuition.</p>
<p>Although it was a long road to graduation, she has had opportunities and experiences that we couldn't have provided for her, and we appreciate that the school recognized her potential in offering her admission and finaid.</p>
<p>So your argument which "seems to be" that schools should reduce costs for everyone- I still disagree with , because that basic price will still be above what families who qualify for FRL, can afford & they can benefit from the extra supports offered by the private schools that only recognize need.</p>
<p>Gripe all you want- not that I doubt that you expect permission, but don't expect alot of sympathy from those who will never see $50 an hour, let alone $150</p>
<p>
[quote]
this thread seems to revolving around lskinners question-
Do I, as a member of the privileged class in the US, not only living in one of the most expensive areas of the United States, but with a professional degree to boot, have a right to complain that the colleges that I want my kids to attend, charge more than I want to pay?</p>
<p>Sure- as a taxpayer- you are given the "right" to snark, or whinge, or rant about anything.</p>
<p>You can complain that you are appalled that denim at JCrew is now going for $99., that paying your dues in a top law firm wasn't worth $190K and that universities that have decided to lower their tuition only for those who can prove that they can't afford it.</p>
<p>But- generally when I complain I want someone to nod their head and say "damn girl!" So I choose the ear of someone who has been in a similar situation and knows what I am talking about.</p>
<p>Once they have heard my vent, they either help me move on, or share what tactic that they have used in that situation.</p>
<p>I don't decide to unload my frustration with being the mom of a toddler who is "too" imaginative, to someone who has been unsuccessful conceiving a child.
Or complain about trouble with architects and contractors hired to add a new floor to my vacation home, to someone who is having trouble just paying the mortgage on their starter house.</p>
<p>I certainly dont expect to hear a lot of poor you, or "life is unfair", if I am in the mood to whinge about how a business who offers subsidies to those who qualify, expect me to pay full price, if I am complaining to someone who receives a subsidy, but their purchase price is still a higher percentage of their income, than the full price would be to mine.</p>
<p>There are parents on the board who have $99,999 EFC. Or even $59,000EFC.
They generally recognize that need based aid is not going to be available at most colleges and adapt. Sure they want to gripe about it, but they also recognize that just by having that dilemma, puts them in the category of those with more choices than anyone.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
different than yours.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And what is your definition? You must have some idea what you meant by the word "need" when you made the following statement:</p>
<p>
[quote]
"But they do meet people' financial needs.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>How do you define "need"?</p>
<p>"And what is your definition?"</p>
<p>You would not understand.</p>