Minorities?

[rattle1]

<p>Mystic,</p>

<p>Diversity is defined by proportional representation of the American polulation. Asian Americans are 4% of the American population. Therefore, if they are over 4% of the schools' students, they are considered overrrpresented and their numbers are limited by "diversity" or a de facto quota. In the schema of "diversity', or the de facto quota capping Asian American numbers, Asians received not a tip or a plus (+) in admissions, but in actuality a negative (-) in admissions, which works against you, if you are Asian American. This negative is proven by the fact that Asian Americans have the lowest rates of admissions to the Ivies and the elite schools than any other group, including whites. This is so despite the fact that Asian Americans are about 15% of the Ivies. In other words, the Ivies do want any more Asian Americans, thereby rejecting stellar Asians, while accepting less than stellar candidates for "diversity". Blacks have the highest admissions rates. I have also given you the recent admission rates for Brown and UPenn. You can review them.</p>

<p>Blacks are 13% of the American population, but they are about 8% of the Ivies, including Harvard, although blacks are almost 10% of Harvard's matriculated class for 2008. They are considered an underrepresented minority (URM) and are given preference in admissions through race based Affirmative Action, admitted with lowere standards than the rest of the admitted class. Admission is based largely on race for blacks at schools such as Harvard, since the 2/3 of blacks at Harvard are middle and upper class blacks. If the race perferences were abolished for blacks and blacks were admitted under the same standards as the rest of the class, blacks woulld only be about 2% or less of the Ivies and elite colleges according to the Journal Blacks in Higher Education.</p>

[rattle1]

<p>"This is so despite the fact that Asian Americans are about 15% of the Ivies. In other words, the Ivies do want any more Asian Americans, thereby rejecting stellar Asian Americans, while accepting less than stellar candidates for "diversity". </p>

<p>Correction of above:</p>

<p>"This is so despite the fact that Asian Americans are about 15% of the Ivies. In other words, the Ivies do NOT want any more Asian Americans, thereby rejecting stellar Asians, while accepting less than stellar candidates for "diversity". The cap for Asian Americans appears to be on average at 15% of the all 8 Ivies, even though the numbers of apps from Asian Americans have increased year after year."</p>

<p>Asians Americans are admitted at 60% to 70% of the white admissions rate to UPenn and Brown with the recent admissions stats I posted. URMs such as blacks are admitted at much higher rates than the white admission rates at these 2 Ivies. It was documented at Stanford, that it admitted Asian Americans at 2/3 of the white admission rate despite the Asian American applicant pool being as qualified or more qualified than the white pool according to all standards used for admission, including holistic criteria such as creativity, motivations, high work ethic, special talents, perseverance and the overcoming of obstacles such as economic disadvantage and cultural and language differences. In other words, Stanford was admitting many whites while rejecting many Asian Americans with exactly the same characteristics. This was documented by an internal study at Standford in the late 1980s, when charges of bias and discrimnation against Asian Americans were leved at Stanford. Since then, Stanford's Asian Americans have increased from 15% to 25%. This certainly appeared to be a bias towards Asian Americans.</p>

[Mystic221]

<p>Are international students included in that percentage of Asian students or African American students ect. or just in that international percentage?</p>

[momsdream]

<p>Well, you know what blacks had to do when we were being kept out of colleges? We started our own (HBCUs). Maybe it's time for the Asians to try it.</p>

[Mystic221]

<p>HBCUs? When was it established?</p>

[rattle1]

<p>Mystic;</p>

<p>You asked, "Are international students included in that percentage of Asian students or African American students ect. or just in that international percentage?"</p>

<p>Asian Americans are overrepresented at Boston College. I don't have the exact % of Asian Americans at Boston College, but its website lumps BC's minorities together with underrepresented minorities (blacks, latinos, native americans) and overreprepresented minority (Asian Americans) at 21% of BC's students.</p>

<p>Asian Americans are definitely more than 4% of BC's students, therefore making them overrepresented according to the Asian Americans' 4% of the American population. I don't have the exact %, but I have an Asian American nephew at BC, he knows that they are definitely overrpresented and not given preference on admissions. I would venture a quess of 8 to 10% are Asian Americans, which would give blacks, latinos and native americans 10% to 13% of all minorities, both underrpresented and overrrpresented (Asian Americans). I will have to verify this.</p>

<p>International students, or foreign students, who include foreign Asians, as well as foreign blacks and foreign hispanics are placed in a separate group and are not lumped with Americans. Coincidentally, the group, "International Students", at many of the top universities, consists mainly of foreign Asians as a majority, which includes students from Mainland China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, and Korea. The largest contigent of all the internationals comes from mainland China and Asia, </p>

<p>Checkout the Harvard U. Factbook for the breakdown of its students in each one of its schools by race and ethnicity:</p>

<p><a href="http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/budget/factbook/current_facts/enroll_ethnicity_7.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/budget/factbook/current_facts/enroll_ethnicity_7.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Checkout the Harvard U. Factbook for the breakdown of International Enrollment:</p>

<p><a href="http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/budget/factbook/current_facts/intl_enroll_12a.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/budget/factbook/current_facts/intl_enroll_12a.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

[rattle1]

<p>Momsdream said, "Well, you know what blacks had to do when we were being kept out of colleges? We started our own (HBCUs). Maybe it's time for the Asians to try it."</p>

<p>The point is that Asian Americans are doing well, but will do much better without racial preferences, which benefit not only blacks, latinos and native americans, but whites as well, in the schema of things with de facto quotas based on "diversity". Asian Americans are the ones who receive the short end of the stick and are discrimnated against with this. </p>

<p>The solution for this problem is to make admissions race neutral or race and ethnic group blind. </p>

<p>Another quote from Jay Matthews" column;</p>

<p>washingtonpost.com
Should Colleges Have Quotas for Asian Americans?</p>

<p>[Chin said if he had the power to change the admission policies of schools that discriminate in this way, he would let them continue to give preference to athletes, musicians, alumni children and any other groups the college wished to favor. And he would admit lower-scoring students whose parents, like his, did not have much money. But he would abolish all preferences based on race and ethnicity.]</p>

<p>[But there is one part of his argument, a reference to a sad era in American history, that is hard to ignore. Many selective colleges before World War II had quotas on Jews. They turned down many brilliant applicants in favor of non-Jewish prep school students with lesser records. They didn't call this striving for diversity, but it was a perverse form of affirmative action, and it left a bitter taste for decades. </p>

<p>Chin calculates that with those quotas gone, about a third of Harvard undergraduates are Jews, who make up about 3 percent of the U.S. population. About 17 percent of Harvard undergraduates are Asians, who make up about 4 percent of the population. Since the percentage of Asian Americans at schools of comparable quality that do not practice affirmative action are much higher -- 40 percent at Berkeley, 50 percent at selective New York high schools such as Stuyvesant -- Chin says the Asian American percentage at Harvard and other Ivies would go up significantly if the rules were changed.]</p>

<p>The Jews also started their own colleges, including Brandeis and the Albert College of Medicine of Yeshiva U.. They became academically excellent. Other Jews went to CCNY or City College of New York and achieved great academic heights including wiinning Nobels in Physics, Chemistry, Medicine, and Economics.</p>

<p>The anti-Jewish quotas were abolished at the Ivies and the elite colleges and Jews became 1/3 of Harvard's students while Jews are only 2,5% of the American population. This is so because Jews are not classified as Jews in admissions and the adcoms do not know if the applicant is Jewish. This should be done for all applicants, especially for Asian Americans, eliminating de facto quotas, and Asian Americans numbers at all the competitive colleges will most assuredly increase. At the most excellent UC Berkeley, Asian Americans are 42% without race-based AA resulting in an anti-Asian American quota. Likewise for Stuyvesant HS, considered one of America's best public magnet schools is 51% Asian Americans without race-based AA.</p>

[Mystic221]

<p>I just think its wrong that a Caucasian student who makes up 65% of a college who has the same stats as a student who happens to be Asian who makes up 9% of the student popluation would be accepted over the Asian student. I have a cousin who recieved acceptance into University of Michigan-Ann Arbor who was Asian. I dont believe her stats were phenomenal but they were of the average student. This was in 2000 or 2001. When did Asian overrepresented minority issue start or do you know how I can find this information?</p>

[rattle1]

<p>There is much information on this issue, but the media does not publicize this issue because it is politically incorrect.</p>

<p>Asian Americans to my knowledge HAVE NEVER received race-based AA in elite
college admissions. They never asked for it, nor they want it or require
it for admissions to Harvard or the elites. Race-based AA discriminates against Asians Americans
with de facto quotas limiting their numbers, not increasing their numbers,
no matter what criteria or standards are used for admission EVEN EXCLUDING
SAT SCORES AND GPAs. Asian Americans have all the characteristics necessary
for admission, including sports, special talents, motivation, hard work,
creativity and the overcoming of hardships and economic disadvantage.</p>

<p>Of course if you factor in SAT scores and GPAs Asian Americans will win
hands down without considering other criteria for admissions. What I am
saying is that even if you FACTOR OUT SAT scores and GPAs and use holistic
criteria only, leaving race out as a factor for admissions, Asian Americans
are also disproporrtionately qualified. THEY ARE NOT ONE-DIMENSIONAL
PRE-MED VIOLINIISTS, according to the RACIST stereotypes used by some,
because they are in every field of study and endeavor and in every field of
extracurricular activities on the college campus.There is no truth to this
stereotype. For instance, just look at the writers for the Harvard Crimson
or any other college newspaper. There are hardly ANY Blacks or Latinos as
writers on the college newspaper staffs.Students at Brown even bemoaned
this fact. Look at Harvard's 41 varsity sports teams which are
non-contact, such as tennis or gymnastics. Asians are well represented. The
Yale women's team in Gymnastics won the Ivy Championship last year with
their best NATIONALLY ranked female gymnast, Ms. Fong, a Chinese American,and a graduate of St. Ann's School in Brooklyn, NYC, a prestigious day prep ranked as a top feeder for the Ivies by Worth Magazine and the Wall Street Journal. The best tennis player on the Exeter's New England Prep League Championship team was a Chinese American last year which enabled the team to dominate in its league. Andover's best female swimmer on their women's League championship team this year is a Korean born swimmer who qualified for the summer Olympics and enabled the Andover team to dominate female swimming. I could go on and on tto break these racist stereotypes of Asian American students.</p>

<p>We must eliminate race-based admissions. Admissions must be race-neutral.</p>

<p>Asian Americans are required to meet a higher standard of achievement for
admissions and this most highly qualified group are admitted at the lowest
rates compared to very other group, including whites.</p>

<p>Studies (done internally when charges of bias were presented) at Brown and
Stanford have clearly disputed the stereotyped image of an Asian American
applicant as being "one dimensional" with no extracurricular activities
except for music. This image only existed in the biased views of the some
of the admission officers. These studies have shown that there was an
unexplained bias in admissions and in fact, the Asian American group
appeared better prepared by any standards used, yet had only a 60% to 70%
admission rate compared to the white applicant group at Stanford. The
Admissions Dean of Stanford could not explain the disparity, but at least
she admitted that there was one. Many of the heads and admission officers
of the elite schools don't even acknowledge that the problem even exists.
The Asian applicants were better prepared than the white group, yet have a
lower admission rate.</p>

<p>Stanford's Committee on Undergraduate Admissions and Financial Aid
discovered, after an inquiry, that between 1982 and 1985 Asian Americans
were one-third less likely than whites to be offered admission, even though
they were on average better prepared than white applicants. Annual Report
of CUAFA, Stanford University, 1986, reprinted in "Campus Report",
November 12, 1986.</p>

<p>Some admissions officials have complained that Asian Americans tend to be
lacking in extracurricular and personal qualities, which universities
consider along with grades to ensure that they get well-rounded
individuals. But there is no systematic evidence to this; indeed a report
by the Corporation Committee on Minority Affairs (CCMI) at Brown,
established to investigate charges of anti-Asian discrimination, found such
assumptions to be the result of "cultural bias and stereotypes which
prevail in the admissions office." In the early 1980s, these attitudes
contributed to a 14% acceptance rate for Asians, who are on the average the
best qualified applicants to Brown, compared to the other students who
averaged an acceptance rate of 20%. See Report of CCMI, Brown University,
February 1984. Between 1978 and 1986, there was a 430% increase of Asian
Americans applying to Brown, but the number of these students remained
fairly constant. Grace Tsang, "Equal Access of Asian-Americans", "Yale Law
Journal", January 1989, pp. 659-78.'</p>

<p>I refer you to the book, "Questions and Admissions: Reflections on 100,000 Admissions Decisions at Stanford", !995, Stanford U.
Press, by Jean H. Fetter, former Director of Admissions at Stanford. On
page 97, she states, "The central fact was that while Asian Americans were
being admitted to Stanford in numbers proportionally much larger than their
representation in California and the U.S. population, the rate at which
they had been admitted have been consistently lower than that for white
students. Generally similar conditions have prevailed at other
universities. Between 1982 and 1985. . . . . Asian Americans applicants to
Stanford had admission rates ranging between 66 - 70% of the admission
rates for whites ."</p>

<p>This could not be explained by academic/ non-academic ratings for Asian
Americans, because the ratings were as good and in many cases, better than
any other group, nor from interaction of ethnicity with other factors such
as gender or geographic origin. Ms. Fetter denied that there was an
implicit quota.</p>

<p>It was troubling because Asian Americans as a group usually have higher
academic ratings (i.e. test scores and grades) and non-academic ratings
with ECs, motivations, high work ethic, special talents and the overcoming
of obstacles, hardships, and cultraland language differences, than all
other groups on average. They have never been given preference as a
targeted minority group, nor are they asking for a perference. Asian
Americans were paying a penalty by having to have higher grades (the best
indicator for future academic success) and higher SAT scores (at Harvard it
was 65 points higher than the white mean in 1992; at Rice it was 70 points
higher; at Stanford, 58 points higher; Columbia, 42 points; Williams, 36
points; Brown 36 points ; Dartmouth 49 points; Princeton 40 points; and
Duke 38 points higher; Sources: Consortium on Financing Higher Education,
1992.</p>

<p>The SAT penalty against Asian Americans could not be explained, but there
certainly seems to be an unstated or unconscious bias in the admissions
process. Asian Americans do not benefit from being alumni children (this
will change in this and future generations), but this alone does not
explain the existence of the penalty, except for reverse discrimination
towards Asian Americans compared to the white majority, not to mention any
other group, via certain "goals" and/or whatever you may call it (quotas).
University officials and admissions officers everywhere have been reluctant
to confront this issue forthrightly and in many cases to admit that the
issue even exists.</p>

[joev]

<p>Whenever I hear the word "minority" Greenday pops in my head.</p>

[Mystic221]

<p>Most students believe the complete opposite (atleast at my high school). White students believe that Asians have the advantage over them and even I believed this until I started to research and ask questions on cc.</p>

[rattle1]

<p>Mystic said,</p>

<p>"Most students believe the complete opposite (atleast at my high school). White students believe that Asians have the advantage over them and even I believed this until I started to research and ask questions on cc."</p>

<p>Well, you are now well informed. I gave you some of the references to this your white classmates wrong. It is said that there is denial of the true facts on this issue. Just read the complete column by Jay Matthews regarding anti-Asian American de facto quotas in competitive colleges, because of racial preferences benefiting every underrepresented minority, blacks, latinos, and native americans and most especially the white majority. The only group that suffers in this race-based AA system of admissions is the Asian American group. Asian Americans at the lowest rates of any other racial or ethnic group, including whites. Blacks and latinos are admitted at the highest rates with lowered standards and racial and ethnic group preferences of AA.</p>

<p>Again, </p>

<p>From the 2/22/01 and 4/3/01 Brown Daily Herald</p>

<p>Brown University Class of '05</p>

<p>16,500 applicants</p>

<p>Asian Americans: 20.3% of the applicants, 16% of the acceptances
African Americans: 6% of the applicants, 9% of the acceptances
Latino Americans: 7.1% of the applicants, 9% of the acceptances
Whites and others: 66.6% of the applicants, 66% of the acceptances</p>

<p>From the 2/12/01 The Daily Pennsylvanian (<a href="http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com%5B/url%5D):"&gt;www.dailypennsylvanian.com):&lt;/a> </p>

<p>Asian American applicants represent 31% of the 19,086 applicants for the University of Pennsylvania’s Class of 2005 but only about 23% of the acceptances. UPenn accepts Asian Americans at a lower rate than any other group.</p>

[Mystic221]

<p>Thanks for your help rattle</p>

[rattle1]

<p>Mystic, you are welcome.</p>

<p>Btw, Northstarmom suggested Brandeis U., a school founded under Jewish auspices for Jews because of the very anti-Jewish quotas which existed before WW II and which now have been abolished.</p>

<p>I know Brandeis well, since I also have an Asian American nephew attending Brandeis, in suburban Boston. I also have many Jewish friends who attended Brandeis. Brandeis is ranked academically close to the top 30 schools and I can say that Asian mericans are not given racial prefrence on admissions to Brandeis. Asian Americans are overrrepresented at over 10% of the students. Brandeis today is 70% Jewish.</p>

[Mystic221]

<p>I'm really surprised that I have never heard of this issue before. I am Asian American and these responses have surprised me so much. Im really angry about this too. I seriously have never heard this issue come up at all, with my classmates or on the news. Im surprised Asians havent taken a stand.</p>

[rattle1]

<p>Mystic said,</p>

<p>"I'm really surprised that I have never heard of this issue before. I am Asian American and these responses have surprised me so much. Im really angry about this too. I seriously have never heard this issue come up at all, with my classmates or on the news. Im surprised Asians havent taken a stand."</p>

<p>Well. this issue is politically incorrect, and many Asian Americans have taken a stand on this, but mainly to deaf ears among the white majority and the underrpresented minorities, because they have nothing to gain, but much to loose. These restrictive quotas were in place for Jews were in several forms, including geographic quotas, by admitting students from places where Jews didn't live. Racial quotas are insidious and pernicious and they cause more racial strife than sovling the achievement gaps for underacheiving lower class blacks, while benefitting mainly underperforming middle and upper middle class blacks (at Harvard, 2/3s are not even descendants of American slaves). This is the travesty of AA which denies poorer Asian Americans and even even poorer whites who outperfrm the most affluent of blacks who gain admittance with lowered standards.. That's the not so well kept secret that the politically correct refuse to admit. Many whites are in denial of this fact.</p>

[remom]

<p>Please don't think you know the answers because you researched this on cc. The liberal media and press need one to do independent research to confirm their stories. I also detect from some postings some resentment towards whites. I believe whites and asians both suffer from affirmative action policies. I believe diversity should have nothing to do with skin color, but on differences in opinions. I think another problem right now is the fact that the ivies are willing to pay substantial amounts to those in need. The problem is that there are many of us who live in California who don't qualify for much if any aid, and we find the cost of ivies too prohibitive. Therefore, the ivies will be lacking the diversity of upper middle class kids; those that are well off. but not well enough off to be able to afford the ivy price tag. My kid would probably be accepted to an ivy, but we cannot justify paying the full ride. URM's and others that have had parents that didn't do well financially, don't need to worry as much about the cost of college. The real discrimination is not giving merit aid to the most deserving applicants, even if the stats favor asians more than ANY others. I believe that if Asian culture understands the importance of education and they work their butt off, they should have that spot in college, period. But I know whites too are at a disadvantage. How could they not be, if blacks, hispanics & native americans are given preference. What you will find, is ivies will have a certain number of very wealthy that pay full boat. But the ivies will be loaded with the rest, who are receiving substantial packages. Parents from California, Hawaii, and New York have a much higher cost of living. Our homes are ridiculously priced and this goes against us as well. I believe hard work should be rewarded. Affirmative action only makes sense when, if all things are equal, that preference goes to kids from disadavantaged backgrounds. Skin color and race should not give anyone a leg up, working hard should. Affirmative action also taints the qualifications of those who could have gotten in on their own. Would you want a doctor or lawyer that didn't have to work as hard to get into college?. How would you like to be tainted with that opinion if you were a minority that hadn't needed the help anyway?</p>

[Mystic221]

<p>Why would they be in denial? I mean Asians and Whites are the targets here. If Blacks are getting admission when they dont qualify or even come close the Asian and White students stats...why should they be in denial? Asians and Whites should be the ones trying to stop AA</p>

[Mystic221]

<p>Remom:</p>

<p>I asked questions about it on cc. I didnt make a thread without researching the subject first. I also agree with what you are saying.</p>

[remom]

<p>Hi Rattle,
I agree with your post, and find it interesting.</p>