<p>marite,
CA students who are accomplished are increasingly looking eastward, & being accepted there. (CA and TX were among the big winners among the 50 States, for Princeton seats this yr; we know several among D's peers who were Yale acceptees, including her.) My D is only one example, but she was uninterested in S as being not what she wanted or needed academically & culturally. (Berkeley, yes, & it was a safety.) For her it was not prestige: it was programs, and location. Also it is very hard for a Californian to get into S because so many apply (not unlike the parallel phenomenon on the East Coast.). Many of her classmates were accepted to several E.Coast schools including a few Ivies, but only one was accepted to S.</p>
<p>I do know that CA has for quite a while been well represented at Harvard.
S1 began by wanting to go to a CA school. As college applications loomed closer, the distance he was willing to contemplate got shorter. In the end. all the schools (save 2) were within a couple of hours' driving distance. His Gc said this was very typical.
Of the 11 students from our school who got accepted into Harvard a couple of years ago, only one turned it down (for Stanford).</p>
<p>Donemom,
Count my DS1 as one who would pick Mudd over Harvard (and he intends to major in math). For him, it's all about the fit, the personal relationships, and his passion for math and comp sci. He feels Harvard would not be a good fit for him, even though he will have the numbers (pardon the pun) to be competitive for admission -- though he looked at Math 55 and gazed fondly at the course description... </p>
<p>He loves to play with his math and programming...always has, probably always will. It is not an academic thing with him -- it's a fun challenge. He is very much the self-taught sort, with a couple of exceptional teachers along the way to help discipline his talent. When he was five, it was deciphering the algorithms in Zoombinis (he would write down the patterns and figure out what was next) -- now it's just more involved! :*) We are also fortunate that the public school system where we live recognized his passion early and have let him run with it.</p>
<p>(He's sitting next to me as I'm typing, listening to "You're My Derivative" and playing around with theoretical comp sci based on some math he picked up over the summer...a typical Friday night at our house!)</p>
<p>I like GFG's suggestion that colleges limit the number of APs that students can put on their application -- although I would argue that 10 is too much. Six or seven should be the max. If kids want to take more, that's fine, but only those taken junior and senior year will be considered in the admissions process.</p>
<p>I am so glad I don't live in a community like GFG's, and I hope the situation there does not spread. It's sure not here. I just came back from a social event where I was talking to the moms of two other seniors. Our three kids are some of the smartest in the HS. Despite intense pressure from the GCs, one of the kids opted not to take AP Bio, another not to take AP US, and the third not to take AP Calc. I'll let you all know in a few months how they all fare in the college admissions game -- but all 3 are having a good time senior year.</p>
<p>As for the attraction of NE schools -- for many kids, it's not as much an issue of prestige as geography. For many reasons, kids want to be a car ride away from home, and not have to get on an airplane. Once you draw a radius around your house, eliminate schools that aren't strong academically or don't match other needs, those 3000 schools in the US are now reduced to a much smaller number. And in the NE, many of the ones left are very difficult to get into -- including the ones that are NOT HYP etc. In fact, even some of those great midwestern schools are not safeties -- Carleton's acceptance rate was 30% two years ago, Kenyon's was 36%. No sure things at all.</p>
<p>We are from the Northeast and my son (who has graduated from college) declined MIT and Harvard to attend Stanford. It was a hard choice, but it was the right choice for him, based on the academic offerings (strong in both engineering/CS and non-technical areas) and overall atmosphere of the schools (emphasis on outdoor activities, social life, etc.). He loved Stanford, and took advantage of several opportunities that he would not have had at either of the other two schools. I am very glad he did not choose Harvard because of a perceived edge in prestige, when it is likely it would not have been the best school for him.</p>
<p>I also know of a young man who declined Harvard and MIT to attend Harvey Mudd. He liked the weather better!</p>
<p>"Once you draw a radius around your house, eliminate schools that aren't strong academically or don't match other needs, those 3000 schools in the US are now reduced to a much smaller number."</p>
<p>Yes. This is one cause of the intensity. It is more difficult for NJ students to get into the top schools in the NE, than for students coming from any other location. I've heard the same is true for kids from the top high schools in NYC. So, Ivy/top LAC safety schools in the NE like F&M, Bucknell, Lafayette, Colgate etc. are not safe any more either. As a result, lots of students have started looking at WashU, Rice, Emory, etc. and now they too have become increasingly difficult to get into. Geographical distribution is an important factor here.</p>
<p>If S had decided to go to Harvey Mudd, he would have joined a very good chum there.</p>
<p>sly_vt, I have assumed this for quite awhile (the convenience/proximity factor), and since CC students have also mentioned it in my 2 yrs. of browsing, I'm not surprised that you have just confirmed that. But this is part of why I am perhaps a little less sympathetic -- which may not be fair, but out here, one does not have the rich choice of so many top-tier schools. Stanford was clearly the logical fit for MofT's son -- but not everybody has those academic interests. And there is a small but critical mass of westerners who are not partial to the highly informal lifestyle of this part of the country. There is another segment who likes the lifesytle but really wants to grow & experience a diff. part of the country as part of one's personal & intellectual education. Still another segment has location needs connected with an intended major & probably career path -- that absolutely do not fit the West Coast. For all these segments -- including those for whom the U.C.'s are also not appropriate for the undergrad years, they virtually have to look east.</p>
<p>Proximity to home & family? Wow, that's not even on the table & never has been. I appreciate that many East Coast students & parents would like that, but given current college population pressures & admission standards, to add staying "local" to this presure is to put even more improbable odds on one's chances.</p>
<p>And GFG, you're certainly right about the shifting levels of matches, reaches, & safeties. That's from friends back East, from GC's, from the stories posted on CC by parents & students - particularly during the last 3 admissions cycles. OTOH, Stanford might prefer fewer W. Coast apps, more E. Coast apps.:)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Proximity to home & family? Wow, that's not even on the table & never has been.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>epiphany, I know dozens of NJ parents who name this as a critical factor in college choice. As do many kids. My town is largely Italian-American. If their kids couldn't get home easily for Nona's 80th birthday, it would be unthinkable.</p>
<p>My d, on the other hand, tells us she will choose the farthest college she can find to escape our "lifeless, soul-sucking town." We shall see.</p>
<p>I mean this question totally straightfacely, because I really am wondering:</p>
<p>To those of you who live in what seem to be academically toxic, prestige driven neighborhoods, as you have described, why do you live in them? Certainly they're more common in the NE, but even here, many, many people live in different kinds of towns. In fact, since we're more densely populated, it would be difficult to have a job location in NJ, at least, which was not in commuting distance to some lower intensity town.</p>
<p>And the correlary--knowing what you now know about your schools and neighbors, good and bad, if you could start over, would you live in a different kind of town?</p>
<p>"epiphany, I know dozens of NJ parents who name this as a critical factor in college choice. As do many kids. My town is largely Italian-American. If their kids couldn't get home easily for Nona's 80th birthday, it would be unthinkable."</p>
<p>But SS, that is a <em>luxury</em>, and an unrealistic luxury, in today's admissions reality. It may be unthinkable for those families. It is not unthinkable from the viewpoint of the colleges. I'm talking about the really selective colleges, naturally. So families have to make their choices: decide whether it is "unthinkable" to attend a lower-tier but proximate school as an alternative to a higher-tier but maybe inconvenient school location. -- JUST in case student does not get accepted to a top-tier, conveniently local school. Wow.</p>
<p>How about my d's issue - she hates to fly. Therefore, she wants a school that is within 1-2 days drive, or a day-long train. Since we live in New England, that lets out all of the midwest.</p>
<p>Or economic issues regarding the costs of visits, returns home, getting the kid to school? Not everyone wants to put their economic resources into flights, shipping, and/or storage. Those costs must be considered in cost of attendance as well. (You can't even limit yourself to seeing your kid in September and June, either, for those schools that close dorms over break periods.)</p>
<p>Additionally, there are reasons that so many people live in the Northeast - we like it here. It's a highly populated area, so it must have its benefits. Why is it so hard to believe that a kid raised in the Northeast wants to stay in the Northeast? For reasons other than prestige? </p>
<p>My niece, born and raised outside Chicago, wouldn't even consider coastal schools - she liked the midwest. Does that make her a snob? Or is it only if you're on the East Coast and would like to stay there that you're a "prestige snob"? Particularly since the Northeast doesn't have wonderful state school systems. No UWis or UMich here.</p>
<p>Chedva, no one's saying that from the family's point of view, personal needs (including the wallet issue) do not factor into legitimate reasons for college choices. But because a family has legitimate & practical desires does not mean that a college has to factor that into their own admissions decisions. Why does a Northeasterner have more of a "right" to attend a PRIVATE college near home than a midwesterner or westerner has, to attend that same college? Publics are different; that's why they have residence priorities. For decades west coast students have had to pay enormously for plane fare, and/or forego a flight home even for important holidays like Thanksgiving, if their family lacked the money for frequent flights. (And we still are.) Lots of parents on PF have lamented the quality of public colleges in the NE, but that doesn't mean that NE privates are required to change admissions policies because equivalent publics have not been built or sufficiently supported. You will find, I'm sure, that there is still a very generous admission preference toward Northeast students; they are quite well represented in the incoming classes. The only difference is, there is no longer the virtual monopoly there once was, & these students are now having to compete with equals from other locales.</p>
<p>Motheroftwo:
Harvard only has a perceived edge over Stanford in your neck of the woods (Northeast). Here in Cardinal territory, Harvard is considered the Stanford of the East. I went to both and I'd go Cardinal any day.</p>
<p>I wasn't looking for sympathy, just stating the reality. As a result of the highly competitive nature of NE colleges, my daughter has made compromises: she's applying to two schools in the midwest, and she's also applying to schools in the NE that some would consider less prestigious or less academically rigorous than schools she might be able to get into if she went south or west. I'm actually touched that she doesn't want to be far from home, or more than one time zone away. She likes her parents, and wants to be pretty close to us. Why should I discourage that? Life is a compromise. She may end up making a compromise.</p>
<p>I find it interesting that West Coast kids feel they have to go to the East coast for colleges, when the East Coast kids are told they need to apply to midwest or western schools. What's wrong with Reed, Lewis&Clark, Occidental, the Claremonts, Univ. of Redlands, Whitman? Or Beloit, Earlham, Lawrence, etc. Those are the places NE kids are being told to apply to, because they are excellent schools that aren't impossible to get into.</p>
<p>The ironic thing about all this is that the demographic trends are that the NE is losing population to the south and west. Isn't it curious that the only time the NE is in demand is the four years of college. Put another way -- Middlebury turns down 75% of its applicants, including many from Vermont, yet the vast majority of its students leave the state and never return as soon as graduation is over.</p>
<p>"What's wrong with Reed, Lewis&Clark, Occidental, the Claremonts, Univ. of Redlands, Whitman?"</p>
<p>Many do go there, if they fit. Those didn't happen to match the academic needs of my D, so she went East. The difference, and the only difference, is that our family did not assume that it was up to the colleges to which she was applying, to satisfy all of her desires & her need for convenience. It wasn't going to be convenient, was it? (To travel across the country.) But she made her CHOICES. She was willing to forego family for 4 years, & convenient location for 4 years, & convenient weather for 4 yrs., for the exceptional opportunities in her particular field that she was not likely to get ever, any place else. Had she not been accepted in the NE, she <em>did</em> have a local safety, in the West.</p>
<p>(And btw, some W.Coast students do go East with certain expectations & cannot handle weather or cultural differences, so come home & change schools during undergrad yrs.)</p>
<p>I didn't think that you were expecting sympathy, but Chedva's & SS's posts did kind of imply that: that there was a certain expectation of admission based on personal preference or family priorities.</p>
<p>I grew up in a "lifeless soul-sucking town" too (in the Midwest, not NE-- but I'm sure they exist everywhere) and couldn't wait to go to college, not to be far from my parents, but the town.</p>
<p>Our son is looking mostly far away to get a fresh new peer group and perspective. My husband and I have flexible schedules and only the one child so we could fly out to see him if he needed us. I realize not everyone has the same situation, but it does widen his options and improve his chances, being willing (and able) to travel.</p>
<p>The downside of NE is the huge number of college applicants; the upside is the large number of excellent schools. After S1 stopped thinking that he wanted to attend college on the West Coast and preferred a LAC, he decided to look for schools within a 3-hours' drive. There certainly was no dearth of schools that would have suited his needs very well, besides those he applied to.
I take epiphany's point that students from the West Coast have to be willing to attend schools further away from home.</p>
<p>I am incredibly curious to see how my D's application will be received by the schools she is applying to. She is untutored, unpackaged, and she does not have any state or national awards, nor has she ever done anything like Intel or Math Olympiad; her school does not offer that kind of opportunity.</p>
<p>She has more than once rolled her eyes and called me an obsessive stage mother because I want her to take the SAT again (she has taken it once) and because I keep suggesting she add one more safety to her list. She emails me Marilee Jones articles with pointed notes about how I should chill out and relax. </p>
<p>So if y'all are interested I'll keep you apprised of her stats and her outcomes, because she is very much what Marilee Jones has been preaching about: she has never built houses in Mexico; her community service is not glamorous or publicity seeking. Last year she worked with one student all year; meeting with her a couple of times a week and helping her with math homework, teaching concepts, and reviewing. I hope she will write about her tutoring somewhere in her college application, but I don't know if she will because she doesn't think of it as a big deal; she was required to do it for NHS, but she achieved something more than just fulfilling her 20 hour academic tutoring requirement; she may have taught another teenager that she wasn't incompetent at math, and knowing that about herself will open many doors in life for that student.</p>