MIT Admissions Dean warns About College Entrance Stress

Parents Forum
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<p>The discussion has moved on a bit but reading back may I draw your attention to the fact that you are addressing only one side of the AP coin. Ok, so colleges look at AP coursework in the admissions process and that might push students to take harder courses (and more) where they wouldn't have otherwise. But what's so terrible about that? Don't answer that. Instead, answer this: what's so much MORE terrible about that than the alternative? To scrap all AP consideration and treat physics as physics, english as english, would be in essence to discourage across the board any and all college-bound students from taking the most difficult courses available to them. </p>

<p>Sure, the motivated student would most likely still enroll, but she is punished for her initiative. How do I figure that? Well, believe it or not, CC is not representative of the cross-sectional distribution of high school students in America. Most high schools don't weigh AP grades any differently from grades earned in honors courses. Such was the policy at my high school (middle-of-the-road school in a well-educated state). The reason? Minority representation in these courses was disproportionally low with respect to the demographics of the school. In these same schools, often the only classes in which it is worth spending the obligatory 7-hour-day were the advanced placement classes (however few they were; and in my case they were few). The best instructors taught nothing but (and the best students took nothing but) the AP courses so the rigor gap between honors and AP became nothing short of monumental. And soon enough, kids learned how to play the system. Why get a B+ in an AP course when you can get an A+ in in "equivalent" honors course and have time left over to go out on weeknights? And on top of that, what if "colleges won't make the distinction anyways"? I don't believe certain humans are born to be more intellectually curious than others. I believe such behavior is made through encouragement, environment, and reinforcement. I believe through whatever means necessary, we should be encouraging youths to test the waters and explore their limits. I hated math until AP Calculus and I hated science until AP Physics. Who cares about my motivation for taking those courses? The fact is that I took them, and the fact is now that I am studying to be an engineer/physicist because of my love for those two disciplines.</p>

<p>Though it may matter (and should) to college admissions officers the "why" behind a string of AP courses, the values of a good, rigorous education doesn't discriminate based on motive.</p>

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<p>After the last thread on this subject, MIT blogger Jessie (who posts here as jessiehl) wrote a very thoughtful [url=<a href="http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/before/advanced_placement_international_exams/some_comments_on_topics_of_int.shtml%5Dentry%5B/url"&gt;http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/before/advanced_placement_international_exams/some_comments_on_topics_of_int.shtml]entry[/url&lt;/a&gt;] on this subject.</p>

<p>At any rate, nowhere on the MIT website does it say that students have to take X AP classes to get in. A wide range of kids are admitted each year with a wide range of educational backgrounds, and most kids don't come in with five zillion AP classes. I don't think it's fair to say that kids take AP classes because they're required to get into schools like MIT -- I think some kids take AP classes because they believe they're required to get into schools like MIT. There are a lot of sources of disinformation about the admissions process in this world. I don't think MIT admissions officers are the guilty party here.</p>

<p>Actually, I like the way Ben put it on the "recommended high school preparation page" of the new website:

[quote]
When we admit a class of students to MIT, it's as if we're choosing a 1,000-person team to climb a very interesting, fairly rugged mountain - together. We obviously want people who have the training, stamina and passion for the climb. At the same time, we want each to add something useful or intriguing to the team, from a wonderful temperament or sense of humor, to compelling personal experiences, to a wide range of individual gifts, talents, interests and achievements. We are emphatically not looking for a batch of identical perfect climbers; we are looking for a richly varied team of capable people who will support, surprise and inspire each other.

[/quote]
</p>

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<p>Mollie: I doubt that any college website will stipulate that x numbers of APs or Y numbers of awards or Z numbers of ECs are necessary for admission. The issue is not what adcoms say but the signals that are picked up by prospective applicants when the profiles of admitted students are publicized. And unfortunately, it is usually the students with outstanding achievements who are profiled in the media.<br>
I wish there were more media stories about hometown girl or boy getting into MIT or Caltech or some other schools. Surely it can't just be the kids who get into Harvard who rate a story in the local papers?</p>

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<p>
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I wish there were more media stories about hometown girl or boy getting into MIT or Caltech or some other schools. Surely it can't just be the kids who get into Harvard who rate a story in the local papers?

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<p>I don't think these kinds of stories happen unless someone issues a press release. I don't think the colleges do this (except for recruited athletes), so it would be up to the high school or the family. Our local paper didn't do a story on the girl from our neighborhood school who got into Princeton, but they did do one on a girl from another town who is going to Rhodes. I don't think it was a question of thinking one child or school rated above the other; just one they knew about and one they didn't.</p>

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<p>
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I wish there were more media stories about hometown girl or boy getting into MIT or Caltech or some other schools. Surely it can't just be the kids who get into Harvard who rate a story in the local papers?

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<p>Sure there are such stories. Matt McGann's blog posted a bunch of them this summer. See the dozen or so MIT 2010 students profiled in hometown newspaper stories posted in the entries from late July through early August listed below.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.mitadmissions.org/Matt.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mitadmissions.org/Matt.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Of course not. Like Marite says, no school will ever say that. A better question is does the MIT application ask how many AP classes an applicant has taken? If yes, then they clearly care about the number and this is going to help feed the admissions arms race.</p>

<p>Similarly, when my D applied to MIT two years ago, the app asked her to list her a) School Awards and Honors b) Regional Awards and Honors c) State Awards and Honors d) National Awards and Honors e) International Awards and Honors.</p>

<p>By specifically asking this it's clear what they are looking for and what they value. I'm sure every applicant looks at that part and winces over every section that they must leave blank or write "none." Thus: "Gosh, I have only state awards and no national or international ones (gulp); how am I going to compete with those who do?" And so once again MIT turns up the heat on the arms race. "Gotta get Intel! Gotta get Math Olympiad! Gotta take lots of APs! Because that's what MIT is looking for!"</p>

<p>So if MIT is no longer specifically asking these questions then I applaud them for putting their money where Marilee Jones's mouth is. But if they are, well then they are still part of the problem and not part of the solution.</p>

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<p>Wisteria:</p>

<p>I hope more high schoolers get to read those! Thanks for the link.</p>

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<p>marite and others: </p>

<p>You can easily find links to all the incoming MIT '10 students whom Matt profiled through links off the left side of the "Incoming</a> Freshman Class" page of their new admissions website.</p>

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<p>coureur, you're free to review the current MIT application here. There is a section that says, "List Advanced Placement, International Baccalaureate or GCSE courses taken or underway." (No lines, list any or none.) There is section saying, "List any scholastic distinctions you have won since entering high school and indicate the level of distinction," with a checkbox for school, regional, state, national, international. And there is another section asking, "Summer Activities (relaxing, reading, camp, travel, summer school, volunteer work, research, etc.)." And my favorite: "Tell us something you do just for the pleasure of it. (This isn't a trick question. We want to see how you bring balance to your life.)"</p>

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<p>I don't see asking for the level of a distinction as being a particularly insidious thing. </p>

<p>The majority of applicants (and the majority of admits) are not going to be able to check the "international" box. The majority probably also do not have national-level awards. (I think I checked the "national" box for NMSF, and left it at that.) </p>

<p>Applicants can see those choices and freak out that other people have international awards, while they themselves do not. Or they can be well-adjusted and realize that not everybody is an IMO medalist. Editorially, I think the ability to have confidence in one's own abilities while recognizing that others are unbelievably talented is quite necessary for academic survival at a school like MIT.</p>

<p>I've linked to this before, but [url=<a href="http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/apply/the_freshman_application/how_to_do_everything_wrong_and.shtml%5Dhere%5B/url"&gt;http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/apply/the_freshman_application/how_to_do_everything_wrong_and.shtml]here[/url&lt;/a&gt;] is my "how I got to MIT" story. The astute reader will see that I am not, as marite so kindly suggested, being modest about my high school background. :)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
So if MIT is no longer specifically asking these questions then I applaud them for putting their money where Marilee Jones's mouth is. But if they are, well then they are still part of the problem and not part of the solution.

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<p>Oh, the "List any scholastic distinctions you have won since entering high school and indicate the level of distinction: school regional state national internationalit" is still there, sandwiched between</p>

<p>"List Advanced Placement, International Baccalaureate or GCSE courses taken or under way. (If you have taken the test, please list the
date and score.)"</p>

<p>and the catchall section for whoever might run out of space in the new 5 paragraphs activities or six lines section:</p>

<p>"No admission application can meet the needs of every individual. If you think that additional information or material will give us a more thorough impression of you, please respond on a separate sheet."</p>

<p>Those changes were discussed in the original article:

[quote]

"What Jones can control is MIT, and there she has tried, at least, to change the tone.
On MIT's application, students are still asked about activities, but there are fewer slots to list them, and there is less emphasis on awards and prizes. This year she's dropping the lines for students to list Advanced Placement exams so as not to signal any expectation.

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<p>Without throwing rocks and boulders, may I ask if those are truly meaningful changes? While I should add that there were positive changes in the essay selection, I am not sure it makes a lot of difference to have five paragraphs versus 10 lines! </p>

<p>On the other hand, how about asking this question: </p>

<p>Please tell us about a maximum of three AP classes (or honors.) Why did you select them? Do you feel your selection will help you at MIT? </p>

<p>PS For the record, ALL of the AP classes are still on the transcripts and TCB score reports. :)</p>

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<p>AP Chemistry
AP Physics C
AP Calculus BC</p>

<p>I selected them because they were the most challenging courses offered at my school and I am interested in Science and Mathematics. I believe they will help prepare me for work at MIT.</p>

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<p>Yep, enlightening, Pebbles!</p>

<p>Ever heard that, as a candidate, you should use every opportunity to let your OWN voice sound clearly. Even the smallest of windows allows for a lot of light to filter through.</p>

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<p>Responses to "tell us about 3 AP classes" would almost all read exactly like pebbles's and provide no light whatsoever: "these 3 were the most challenging courses at my school". Otherwise kids would be like, "Huh? What are you talking about, I love math and science and it's the most advanced course I can take in those subjects." I can't see that being of any help whatsover. Boring.</p>

<p>(And you probably already know that pebbles did just fine in her application season, two years ago.)</p>

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<p>
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Stranded between the too easy and very hard, they usually chose the very hard. It's not the colleges' fault that high school principals made dumb decisions.

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<p>marite, I see this problem at plenty of public schools. My own town is pushing APs now, and the admission reguirements are pretty low. Nobody is forced to take the test, passing rates are low, and kids complain that the level of discourse in the class is not quite what it should be for an AP level. Most of these kids are trying to escape the generic level course and the goofing off that goes on, but they'd be better suited for an honors level.
Some are just politically connected kids who are never kept out of anything they want to do, regardless of how ill-suited they may be. It's not fulfilling the spirit of AP, that's for sure. One of many reasons our kids won't attend.</p>

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<p>Xiggi:</p>

<p>If asked to list 3 APs and why he selected them, my S might have decided to list AP-USH, AP-English and AP-Bio as the most challenging--because they are his least favorite subjects. How would have this helped throw light on his strengths?</p>

<p>But if he had listed Ap-Calc and Physics, they were not particularly challenging to him, and would not give a sense of the further work he'd done in these areas. </p>

<p>That's where the one-size fits all approach is not useful.</p>

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<p>I think colleges should acknowledge their complicity in a national extortion scheme with a section of the application that asks:</p>

<p>Please itemize every fee paid to the College Board and total at the bottom:</p>

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<p>"I can't see that being of any help whatsover. Boring."</p>

<p>Yes, it is obvious that for some, it is much less boring to mindlessly compile sterile laundry lists of achievements. </p>

<p>How hard is it to write a couple of lines about something you are supposed to cherish, of having pursued by choice. If it is that hard to write something menanigful about your favorite three, I shudder at the thought of what would be written about the next 4 to 10! </p>

<p>Of course, I can see it to be hard for anyone who was only interested in the result and not the journey. Oh, I agree that it must be be boring to write about collecting trophies and marking notches on one's belt! </p>

<p>I do not doubt that it is hard to describe the joy of learning and the AP in the same sentence, but wasn't that MY point all along!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
But in a non-sequential, more subjective discipline, where learning is based on discussion, comprehension of readings, and formulating ideas in writing, it would surprise me if HS classes impart as high level understanding as college classes would

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<p>conyat, I think an AP course with strict entrance requirements (and a qualified teacher) would solve that problem. And make the test mandatory. That will quickly showcase programs that are properly administered. Re: Girl complaining that AP science class had no lab work. That's not allowed. Our town had to revamp the science labs to the tune of $4 million because the College Board was no longer going to be accepting the tests from our district with outdated labs. I don't know what the inspection procedure is, or how often it is done. But The College Board is involved in some type of approval process for lab components of their AP science offerings.</p>

<p>I like the way my d's all-girl school handles AP. Most every frosh & soph course is offered at CP, honore, and high honors levels. AP is reserved for jr/sr year, and a high grade must have been earned in the high honors course in order to get in. Only about 15 AP courses are offered. There is plenty of rigor, and nobody is "bored to tears." Nobody is unchallenged, and nobody will be overwhelmed, either, because there is a spot for every girl to be placed appropriately in CP, H, HH, or AP. There are fascinating H offerings in humanities. Plus, every girl must complete a year of bio, chem, & physics in order to graduate.</p>

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<p>
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AP is reserved for jr/sr year, and a high grade must have been earned in the high honors course in order to get in.

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<p>I hope this policy is not THAT strictly enforced. Every year, some sophomores take AP classes--and tests--in our school. Some, like my S, begin earlier. He WOULD have been bored to tears in High honors classes.</p>