MIT Admissions Dean warns About College Entrance Stress

Parents Forum
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<p>"But it would be unwise for adcom to institute a one-size fit all limit on AP or college classes that will be considered."</p>

<p>That is probably correct. My S's high school gives absolutely no extra weight for either grade point or rank for AP courses. I'm sure there are many cases elsewhere where students take courses with that in mind, but it sure isn't the case here. The kids who take AP courses pay a big price in grade point and class rank.<br>
If not for AP and the availability of college courses for math past Calc BC and some particular language courses, I would have been forced to let this son graduate early. I preferred to keep him around.
Some of the posters on cc seem a lttle oblivious to the fact that this is a huge diverse country, and many kids have hs experiences very very different from those in coastal urban or suburban areas.</p>

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<p>Yet another reason why many colleges ask for a School Profile to be included from the Guidance Counselor along with the transcript: a document of that sort will help establish the comparative context in which the applicant studied, and help make clear what sorts of opportunities the school offered (and didn't offer) and what the student took advantage of.</p>

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<p>Marite,</p>

<p>I don't disagree with your position. In fact, I can easily see for myself at our New Jersey, suburban, highly competitive public high school that kids who perhaps are not what ADComs at top colleges are looking for try to make themselves appear that they are what AdComs are looking for by taking huge numbers of APs without genuine interest, by insincerely doing numerous ECs, and so on.</p>

<p>The AdComs job is to distinguish the two groups.</p>

<p>If the AdComs just ruled out Intel, RSI, college classes, APs, etc., as is being proposed, the AdComs would still want and need to try to distinguish between the two groups. So the nature of the problem would not change, but in that scenario it would be the kids they are trying to find who would have to start behaving differently and perhaps insincerely, trying to find a way to signal their true abilities to the AdComs, rather than the other group of kids. </p>

<p>I only mentioned my son's personal experience to point out that MIT is sincere when they say that they don't require massive resumes from teenagers, even those from the East Coast. I would also like think that the "profile" they are truly looking for includes the applicant presenting himself just as he/she is, authentically--having chosen courses, activities, and ECs accordingly, and not for the sole or primary purpose of impressing AdComs.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
If the AdComs just ruled out Intel, RSI, college classes, APs, etc., as is being proposed, the AdComs would still want and need to try to distinguish between the two groups. So the nature of the problem would not change, but in that scenario it would be the kids they are trying to find who would have to start behaving differently and perhaps insincerely, trying to find a way to signal their true abilities to the AdComs, rather than the other group of kids.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That is precisely the problem. How can applicants signal their true abilities? HIgh schoolers look at what's worked before and try to replicate it or even one-up it. The existing signals in and of themselves are not bad, criticisms of Intel notwithstanding.
So one kid got in with 6 APs? Well, I'll take 6, or 7, or 8 to be on the safe side. It does bother me reading kids taking practically only APs on a block schedule then self-studying, and wondering whether AP-Comp Sci looks better than AP-Stats, or AP- Economics. It bothers me that students invent extra-curricular activities in order to look good to colleges.
Actually, this is where Marilee Jones could make a difference: convincing students not to overdo ECs.</p>

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<p>ADad, while your son may not have had major competitions on his resume, my bet is that you're being slightly disingenuous. What was your son doing with his spare time in HS? Did he rebuild a car from scratch? Build robots for fun? Design a solar-powered TV for the third world? There are lots of non-competitive but highly gnurdy activities that make MIT salivate.</p>

<p>That said, MIT is pretty clear that what students do with their summers generally doesn't matter, although they do like Intel and RSI kids precisely becuase they are the kinds of kids who enjoy doing Intel and RSI stuff. Joy in learning is a big turnon to MIT.</p>

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<p>FL has a summer program for about 36 math/science kids, offered for free at FL State. Teacher recomendations are a key factor. It may not be known nationaly, like RSI is, but I never heard of RSI before reading CC. Anyway, the FL program does help coleges like MIT/Caltech idenitfy kids with a passion for science, & the program offers the high schoolers lab experience.</p>

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<p>I can provide another reason for lots of AP courses. My DD was bored to tears (literally) by the regular HS coursework.</p>

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<p>marite: it bothers me, too, that many kids mar (IMO) their high school experiences by trying to be something that they are not. There are lots of wonderful paths out there, and wonderful, successful people who follow them by being true to themselves.</p>

<p>dmd77: true, he did have a "nerdy" outside activity, which was done independently. But really that is my point: finding your own path, when done with skill, intensity, passion and purpose, was, in his case at least, apparently of interest to MIT. One does not have to mimic (and/or overdo) the paths of others.</p>

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<p>Maybe it is the life guard or summer camp counselor kid who by doing that "unacademic" activity shows the CONFIDENCE in self and it is recognized by schools who appreciate their individuality.<br>
My d is a another NY kid at Cornell- (she was also awarded nice scholarship money at URochester and CMU too) but her HS background was not filled with "cookie cutter" activities. Her main EC was karate and her summers were spent as a camp counselor. Of course these kids have to have high SAT's, terrific grades, AP's etc- but maybe it's ok just to be a "normal" kid too. I gotta admit, the whole college admission process was pretty stressless in our household. We "knew" she would get into a good school and life would go on.</p>

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<p>"Some of the posters on cc seem a lttle oblivious to the fact that this is a huge diverse country, and many kids have hs experiences very very different from those in coastal urban or suburban areas."</p>

<p>This issue is a lot more complex than the scope of this earlier discussion was. However, it IS because our country is so diverse and that access to certain program is so uneven that I'd like to see restrictions imposed on a number of programs. While there are schools that have become glowing AP factories, other schools present a very distinct image, including some that are refusing to "dance" with Gaston, and have punted the AP program entirely. </p>

<p>A lot of the logic behind the "defense" is circular at best. However, this is not a discussion about the validity of the AP program nor about what I have called its "abject explosion," it is about how those programs are evaluated in admissions and more specifically how students react to the results of admission decisions. Does anyone really believe that the explosion of IB programs in Texas and Florida is unrelated to the admissions policies? </p>

<p>This is what I see as a negative pattern: Elite school XYZ accepts students with an average of 6 APs ... the next year everyone scrambles to get 8. And there is the beginning of a vicious circle as the school reacts to "better prepared" students. In turn, parents are FORCED to program a competitive MIDDLE SCHOOL program because without the pre-requisites, it would hard to take the necessary AP starting in ... 9th grades. Students do not end up with 10-15 AP by accident. </p>

<p>That would be fine by me, IF we would simply acknowledge and accept that entering such a rat race is what is REQUIRED to be competitive in admission at the most elite schools. This is why I lament the contradiction and ambiguity between the "recover the summer" messages sent by Marilee Jones or Fitzsimmons and the ... press releases of January and April extolling the increasing greatness of each class.</p>

<p>At the end of the day, I expect MORE from a school such as MIT because it CAN institute positive changes, and has a Dean who has started a very vocal crusade on this issue. If there is one school who can attract Intel finalist, MIT is the one. It is also the school that could EASILY build a class of equal value without rewarding a SPECIFIC award or program. Would the quality of the applicant pool, or the chose class be ANY less impressive were the Intel cancelled? Isn't that where the holistic reviews pays dividends? </p>

<p>In my opinion, there are few reasons for very competitive programs to have to rely on crutches, or reward them as they DO. There are, however, reasons to cut through this gordian knot and realize that without drastic and direct changes to the MESSAGES sent, parents will continue to seek the "perfect" resume and will continue to BUY it. Colleges officials love to decry the "explosion" of commercialism-- with the help of hollow loudmouths--as the main cause behind all the ills in the process. Yet, they see no harm in hosting programs that are very commercial ventures, or reward programs that are testaments to the SUNY-like "resources" one can put together, and all but closed to little Cindy from Waco, Texas.</p>

<p>Something has to give. And it DOES start at our biggest and best schools.</p>

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<p>Musings ... anyone?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Saul Geiser, a University of California-Berkeley researcher who is co-author of one of the studies cited by the College Board, sounds a cautionary note about the use of AP tests in admissions decisions.</p>

<p>*"AP courses were originally developed to place students into higher-level college courses," he said. "It is now being used in admission decisions, a purpose for which it is not intended and for which it has not been validated." * </p>

<p>The University of California has given applicants bonus points simply for taking an AP course, a practice that Geiser's research has called into question.</p>

<p>Colleges once routinely offered course credits to students if they scored 3 or higher on an exam. But as more students qualify, some institutions have tightened up and now require students to score at least a 4 to earn course credit. Some highly selective colleges only accept a 5. </p>

<p>Some schools also limit the number of course credits students can receive. At Pomona College in California, students receive credit for a maximum of two courses, no matter how many 5s they have earned.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Source: <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-01-25-ap_x.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-01-25-ap_x.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Xiggi:</p>

<p>I would link the explosion of APs and IBs in TX to the weighting system and the top 10% policy by the TX university system more than to the admission policies of highly selective private schools.</p>

<p>I have my own reservations about the AP curriculum. And these are probably shared by those schools that have chosen to scrape the AP program. But the schools themselves have extremely rigorous curricula and encourage their students to take AP exams (Scarsdale is a case in point). BU Academy is another highly successful school that does not offer APs; but juniors and seniors are strongly encouraged to take BU courses. We're not talking about Podunk High with perhaps a grant total of 3 APs if any.</p>

<p>As for IBs, it is interesting to me that many IB programs have been introduced into underperforming schools. The rationale, then, is not to give a few students a leg up in the admissions rat race, but to try to lift the performance of middle and high school students with an integrated and ready-made curriculum. </p>

<p>What can MIT do? Perhaps showcase a range of students who have gained admission, from the IMO gold medalist to the student who tinkered in the family garage but did not win major national competitions and even spent the summer as a lifeguard. Usually, it is the Intel finalists and the IMO gold medalists who receive publicity.</p>

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<p>I've read the Geiser criticisms before.
Here the issues of admissions, credit and placement all get conflated.
For the purpose of admissions, AP classes stand as "the most challenging classes available."" Until our high school decided to restore honors track (suspended for a disastrous 3 years), there was nothing between heterogeneous classes (whose students ranged in reading abilities from 6th grade to college-leve) and APs. I heard some parents complain that their kids did not necessarily want to do AP in a particular subject but did not want either to take the heterogeneous classes in that subject. Stranded between the too easy and very hard, they usually chose the very hard. It's not the colleges' fault that high school principals made dumb decisions.</p>

<p>Some colleges, like Pomona or Wesleyan, do not grant Advanced Standing and limit the number of APs that can be used for credit. But APs can still be used for placement--the original purpose of the program.</p>

<p>Finally, William Lichten of Yale did a study of the AP-English program several years ago, in which he claims that the expansion of the program has led to a dilution of its quality. Which is probably why some colleges raised the qualifying score from 4 to 5.</p>

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<p>Marite, you're absolutely correct about Texas. But, that was exactly the point I wanted to make: parents DO react to what is offered to them, especially when there is a clear prize associated to the extra "effort." In this case, at many schools, it has become very, very hard for anyone to secure a top 10% ranking without maximizing the GPA via weighted classes. The IB program with its ultra-genrous weighting system was just what the doctor ordered. The rest is history. Is the program positive or negative? Such discussion would take days! My opinion is that the IB program should be heavily scrutinized, especially in underperforming schools that have simply jumped on the latest fad without much thought. Schools with full AP or IB programs that cannot crack an average of 900 on the old SAT mark should raise more than a few eyebrows.</p>

<p>AMong other studies and opinions on the AP (ab)uses, there is a report by the National Center on Educational Accountability (NCEA) that has similar findings to Geiser's study. And, of course, one of the most famous AP critic is William Casement who has been arguing that AP courses are not as good as college introductory courses.</p>

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<p>Xiggi:</p>

<p>I agree with you, but for the purpose of admission at MIT or similar schools, I would expect that AP scores would be preferred over GPAs. One does not build an impressive list of AP classes in senior year. So a student who had astronomical GPA but worhtless or no AP scores would probably stand no chance of being admitted.</p>

<p>Our high school, by the way, does not weight grades, so raising the GPA was not the reason why some students reluctantly took AP classes when Honors were not offered. </p>

<p>The problem for adcoms is that once a program exists, for whatever reasons, it is hard to ignore the information it provides about applicants especially when there are so many qualified applicants and so few spots.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
One of the most famous AP critic is William Casement who has been arguing that AP courses are not as good as college introductory courses.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This does bother me about colleges accepting vast numbers of AP credits, especially in the social sciences and the humanities. I don't see a problem with kids moving ahead in math, foreign language and other sequential disciplines, and getting credit for the courses they bypassed. But in a non-sequential, more subjective discipline, where learning is based on discussion, comprehension of readings, and formulating ideas in writing, it would surprise me if HS classes impart as high level understanding as college classes would (assuming all other things are equal).</p>

<p>I think colleges probably do try to consider what AP means in terms of the HS. I had an undergraduate tell me once that she had "AP Chemistry" in her low-performing HS, and all they did all year was memorize the periodic table (no experiments, no problems requiring calculation, nothing). She knew it wasn't what she was supposed to be getting, but there wasn't much she could do about it. Anyhow, it would surprise me if colleges look at her AP course the same way they would one from an elite private school.</p>

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<p>Aside: MIT offers credit only for a very small number of AP exams (Physics C (5s on both sections), Bio (5), and Calc BC (4 or 5); a 5 on either English Language or Lit will exempt a matriculant from the Freshman Essay Exam over the pre-freshman summer). So it's not as if their applicants are taking AP exams believing they'll be able to place into advanced classes right a way as a result.</p>

<p>And I'm sure you're right, conyat: AP does not equal AP does not equal AP. Context reigns.</p>

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<p>Some colleges will use the AP exam as a benchmark before deciding whether to give a student credit or advanced standing. For example, at Harvey Mudd, getting a 5 on AP Physics BC earns you an invitation to take their departmental exam to see if you get to exempt THEIR intro physics class. </p>

<p>The Mudd admissions guy we heard speak last spring told us that of 14 kids who were eligible to take the departmental exam, 7 decided not to take it (after seeing the study packet for it), four walked out of the test, and three took it. One passed. Mudd also does this for math placement, since they require all students have completed a year of calc in HS.</p>

<p>Strikes me as a good way for colleges to ensure their students aren't exempting too much and then getting hammered when they are in a class beyond what they expected.</p>

<p>OF course, this applies to students who have accepted a spot at the school, so it doesn't help distinguish candidates much in the admissions process...</p>

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<p>conyat, I think you've answered your own musings. (For the humanities subjects especially, it really depends on the school.) D's h.s., & at least 4-5 peer h.s.'s in the same region (ALL of them upper-level privates) include heavy-duty humanities classes. There are often niche subjects, held in seminar format, demanding much in the way of intellectual ability & performance. They are generally not survey courses but actually much more like upper-division 'specialty' classes for majors at selective LAC's & U's, than they resemble high school AP's or h.s. college prep classes.</p>

<p>College admissions committees often know which high schools operate this way, which do not.</p>

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<p>Again, I think that some recent posts confuse placement and credit. Setting aside the case of the student who was able to graduate from UVA in one year, top schools have a residency requirement and a maximum number of APs to which they give credit for the purpose of Advanced Standing. At Harvard, some APs do not qualify. Harvard also has both a more generous and a more stringent AP policy than some of its peers. Generous in that it does not demand that AP scores be distributed among disciplines (as is the case at Princeton) or differentiate between, say, Physics, Chemistry and Bio as certain schools do; more generous, too, because you need only 4 APs to receive AS; more stringent, however, because the scores all have to be 5s. </p>

<p>But: students still need to take Expository Writing (or Freshman English) no matter what score they got on AP-Am Lit or AP-English Language (which counts for only half credit). Students still need to take the math placement test and students with a 5 in AP-Calc B have been known to place in some of the lower versions of Calc. AP-Bio can be used for AS credit, but students wishing to major in Bio still need to take Intro Bio at Harvard. And so on and so forth. Other colleges have their own versions of this scenario in which AP scores can be used for credit, for placement, for both, of for none of the above.</p>