MIT Admissions Dean warns About College Entrance Stress

<p>Ditto for both of my sons, marite. (Full disclosure: one of whom is at MIT.)</p>

<p>Several posts have commented on uneven quality of AP courses. It has always been my belief that no college, even State U., gives any weight to an AP course without an AP exam score to report; presumably poorly taught courses result in poor exam scores. Indeed, high schools that encourage kids to forego the exams discredit the program, since the whole value of the program is universal and predictable curriculum. That said, I must admit that my biggest concern about the AP program is the expense of the exams, prohibitive for poorer students if they want to take as many of the tests as my son and his friends have. (Our state no longer covers any of the costs.) Earlier, someone criticized AP courses for being a mile wide and an inch deep. That is better than an inch wide and an inch deep, which is the only alternative at my S school.</p>

<p>It is that strict, marite. But fortunately the HH courses are incredibly intense & challenging. My d's frosh HH English, for example, was more rigorous than the lit survey courses I took in college. There are only two college courses provided through one of those joint credit programs allowed through the entire four years. (Forget the courses, off the top of my head.) Every other course must be taken through the h.s. for it to appear on the transcript or count toward GP. I'm sure there is no preventing girls from taking college courses on their own after hours or during summers, however.</p>

<p>There's a hugh difference in how AP is taught from school to school. I really think that's why some schools hide behind the "We can't force our kids to take the exam, we're a public school" excuse.</p>

<p>You're right that the program should maintain a universal and predictable curriculum, midmo. But the schools that don't require testing often don't. In my town, the motivated kids teach the curriculum to themselves, because the classroom instruction doesn't cut it. Struggling students just skip the test, and there is no accountability for poor results because they are conveniently skewed. That's a shame, on many levels. But mainly because a kid who taught himself from a study guide, without the benefit of stimulating classroom discussions and challenging research papers, did not really get a college experience.</p>

<p>"But mainly because a kid who taught himself from a study guide, without the benefit of stimulating classroom discussions and challenging research papers, did not really get a college experience."</p>

<p>I agree completely. Unfortunately, more and more kids are doing the self-study thing. Perhaps that accounts for prestigious colleges cutting back on credit for the AP courses. That's fine with me; I don't think college is something to be rushed through anyway.</p>

<p>
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Our town had to revamp the science labs to the tune of $4 million because the College Board was no longer going to be accepting the tests from our district with outdated labs

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</p>

<p>Any idea how much the cost per lab was? Or I guess to get an accurate picture, since some labs would be larger than others, cost per student station? We had some schools destroyed down here, and now you've got me curious if they are rebuilding them with what they need for AP.</p>

<p>

See, I (and many of the applicants over on the MIT board) interpret that space as being a place to discuss any bumps in their application -- instead of having ulcers because of that C+ in Honors English sophomore year, the applicant can tell the story about his grandmother having cancer that year. </p>

<p>At any rate, how is it a bad thing to have more space for the applicant to explain himself or herself, and to make him/herself a more three-dimensional character? The intent of having such a space is to decrease the madness about standardized test scores and grades ("OMG I got a 760 on math IIc, should I retake?!!?!?!").</p>

<p>Mollie, with all due respect, it is OK to drop the MIT rethoric just a bit. This is the Parent's forum. </p>

<p>What IS the subject of this thread? In addition, you were ... almost there: you just had to extend your quotation by a mere paragraph. Wasn't my post about a comparison of the changes made to the application and the "improvements" described in the article quoted by the OP. </p>

<p>I fully understand how the "extra space" can be utilized. I'm trying to understand why Mrs. Jones believes there were improvements made to the application, and how those might relate to her positions on diminishing stress.</p>

<p>What we don't have handy, xiggi, is a copy of what MIT's application looked like five or six years ago when Marilee presumably started working on its tone and emphases. If you look at the spaces and boxes and questions on the application this year, or two years ago, you may see something very different than you would have seen not all that long ago, and so perhaps the trend <em>is</em> in the right direction. From the OP's quoted article:
[quote]
[S]he has tried, at least, to change the tone.</p>

<p>On MIT's application, students are still asked about activities, but there are fewer slots to list them, and there is less emphasis on awards and prizes. This year she's dropping the lines for students to list Advanced Placement exams so as not to signal any expectation.</p>

<p>One essay asks applicants to write about something they do simply for pleasure. Another asks applicants to talk about an experience where they found value in failure or disappointment.</p>

<p>Jones has also rewritten MIT's guidelines to interviewers, telling them to look for a good match, not robots with resumes. She has told MIT's admissions marketing company to stop sending material to high school sophomores.

[/quote]
I can't help but believe this is all to the good.</p>

<p>^^I agree that this is all good. But given Ms. Jones's repeated statements about how bad the admissions stress is, they strike me as minor adjustments rather than sweeping reforms. Like the 70 out of 1000 students figure, they are more token gestures.</p>

<p>/sigh</p>

<p>Mootmom, I give up. Please check the 2006-2007 application ... or my earlier post on the "changes." This year she's dropping the lines for students to list Advanced Placement exams so as not to signal any expectation.</p>

<p>So, here are the changes:</p>

<p>List your APs</p>

<hr>

<hr>

<hr>

<hr>

<hr>

<hr>

<p>versus
List your APs in the following three inches :</p>

<p>Now, i get it! It's about the lines.</p>

<p>Whether the schools ask for AP's on the applications or they are found on the high school transcipts and/or College Board transcript, colleges will have the information and students will know that they have it. And thus, I think the wording on the application will do little to subdue the so-called "arms race". And given such variables as grade inflation and other differences between high schools, AP scores do provide another more uniform means of assessing student abilities and study skills than does GPA, so I highly doubt the colleges won't be paying attention to those scores, regardless of where they find them. (and yes, I understand that AP's were not designed to be college assessment tools).</p>

<p>However, I have to say that the large number of AP's my son took had mostly to do with wanting to be among motivated students who, along with a challenging curriculum, would make for a worthwhile experience. The alternative to the AP classes in our high school tended to be a joke. And he only turned to college level courses when he ran out of high school ones.</p>

<p>Stickershock:</p>

<p>So does your school have High honors Calculus BC, or High Honors Physics C as well as AP in these subjects? I can see that high honors in the humanities and social studies would be very challenging (and, I repeat, I don't care for the AP curriculum in these fields), but I don't see the point of having so many different levels of classes in the sciences and math. And in the latter, it's easy to know whether a student is capable of doing AP/college level work or not.</p>

<p>Regarding whether a student who studies for AP tests on their own gets "a true college experience." Well, I've taken many distance learning courses from several colleges (U of Washington is the best known), and essentially I was studying on my own with snail and email support. The transcript considers that course to be equivalent to one taken through traditional lecture. Frankly, I think the distance learning courses cover more than the traditional courses, because every single one I've taken covers the ENTIRE text. (The state of Washington requires that teachers take 15 quarter credits every 5 years to maintain their teaching certificate. Between that and adding endorsements, I have taken 13 distance learning courses. It's a lot easier than driving to class at rush hour!)</p>

<p>Dmd:</p>

<p>What I understand by "self-studying" is not taking distance courses or evening classes, but literally studying out of an AP prep book and textbook. This is why students post to ask which is the best prep book on the market.
My S prepared for AP-Calc by reading the textbook and doing exercises that his dad assigned; he was also helped via email by a retired high school teacher. I don't call that self-studying. it was more like being homeschooled</p>

<p>It seems to me that the only way to get a better read on the level, content, & student results in h.s. courses is to revise the teacher recomendation forms put out by the colleges, and/or to supplement those with information provided by a h.s. academic dean or academic Head of School.</p>

<p>Example:<br>
"Attach your class syllabus to this form."
"Include an assignment produced from the syllabus by the student."
"Describe the expectations of your class & how you assess those. How did this student do, relative to these standards?
"List materials for the course, including anything supplemental to exam preparation"</p>

<p>With regard to evaluation of the student as a student, any numeric scale ("best in my career," "#5," etc.), any designation should be measured against qualitative comments, perhaps right underneath that rank.
(An example, or further description of "how" that superior performance was demonstrated.)</p>

<p>And to those who think this is a lot of extra work for a teacher: Sorry, this is their job. (Spoken by a teacher.)</p>

<p>Anything helping to illuminate the difference between the grade-grabbers & the true intellectuals should be a part of the teacher rec form. If it's "a lot of work" [for teachers with larger classes], then the h.s. can limit the # of teacher recs allowed. (Many h.s.'s already do.)</p>

<p>It's really clear that one AP is not another, one school is not another, some Honors classes are more difficult than some AP's, some non-Honors are also more difficult. And many classes in particularly rigorous high schools are as and in some cases <em>more</em> difficult than classes in many quite highly ranked colleges.</p>

<p>Actually, the MIT teacher's rec form tries to meet some of these issues. It asks the teacher to explain whether a student received a particular grade by virtue of being conscientious, a good memorizer, grade-conscious, or brilliant.</p>

<p>xiggi, sorry that we're not communicating, but I already figured out the "lines vs. no lines" change -- which I suspect is only one trivial change, but might <em>perhaps</em> cause some over-stressed student to stop counting the number of lines in the expectation that they had to fill in all or most of them with AP classes. I am talking about the larger tone of the application: what did it look like five or more years ago, how different was it then, is there any substantive change in tone and approach? I strongly suspect the answer is yes, but do not have an older application to review. I'll see if I can get hold of one and report back.</p>

<p>understood, Marite. And that's terrific if MIT's form is better than some of the others. I just think more specific & targeted questions should be added to rec forms from all private colleges (of those whose forms are currently too "generic" to probe the quality of the student's performance). I added these suggestions because the conversation had gone broader than just MIT, it seemed, & it certainly is an understandable & repeated complaint on many threads regarding AP's in general, high school programs in general, GPA's, etc. (the non-standardization of those). :)</p>

<p>My S attached a list of the catalog entries of the college classes he was taking (Math 101, for instance, is not introduction to college math!). In the case of his high school classes, some had fairly detailed syllabi, many others did not. AP classes, in particular, had especially skimpy syllabi, perhaps because it was understood that the class followed the AP curriculum. Other classes had "such as..." instead of a full list of works to be read, and no description of requirements such as end-of year projects (these were announced in class). I suspect many high schools operate in the same vague way.</p>