MOL 214 vs 215

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>WARNING - I would not take orgo as a freshman, especially the CHM 301-302 sequence.
You may place into it, but IMHO they are not doing you a favor. Unless you are an extremely diligent student and quick to adjust ( your personal designation may change upon arrival) I would recommend either taking CHM 215, or waiting until your sophomore year. </p>

<p>As for integrated science, I hear its great, and a lot of people taking the sequence really like it. Of course its a ton of work, but those who I have talked to say its worth every all-nighter. Professors Botstein and Bialek are hot stuff these days. They are also reworking the Integrated Science curriculum so that there is more biology emphasis your freshman year (it used to start with Physics and Chemistry), so that might work out even better.</p>

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<p>CHM 301-302 is no longer offered, as the professor (who didn't get extremely positive reviews) is leaving. Only the lecture-based CHM 303-304 will be available (as of now).</p>

<p>I spoke to the HPA office (Health Professions Adivsing) and apparently they said that medical schools will not recognize integrated as fulfilling either biology or biochemistry, and if I didn't take the sequence freshman year, its even less possible for me to take just the sophomore year part of it and try to get credit for it. I found this very strange, but I have class during all the HPA advising hours and they don't seem to like the idea of making an appointment with a freshman, and continue to insist that i make it to advising hours. In that case, it wouldn't be feasible for me to take the sequence next year, although it looks so intriguing.. =/</p>

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<p>I was afraid that medical schools did not recognize integrated science, and you have confirmed it. </p>

<p>They will get another professor for CHM 301-302 because its the preferred course for chemistry majors, and a lot of people take those two courses every year, so trying to cram that crowd into the 303-304 group can only cause trouble.</p>

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<p>Ah. Well it's not offered next year, thats all I know. I'm going to try to talk to the HPA office some point soon anyway, because it just doesn't sound right to me.</p>

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<p>I would talk to HPA, they seemed to think (at the time that I was applying) that it would count for biochem, but not for orgo. I could be wrong though, and they havent actually had anyone apply from the program yet. I'd still advise you to go talk to Botstein and see what he has to say. </p>

<p>sorry about 214- I obviously haven't taken the class, I know more about genetics and biochem and cell than 214.</p>

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<p>So if I have a 5 on Physics C, what is the minimum amount of physics I have to take for premed? If I have to take physics, I want it to be new material (hence 105-106) rather than the same stuff I learned in high school but curved harder (103-104). Also, do you think it is preferable to take Orgo as a freshman and MOL 215 and Biochem as a sophomore or should it be bio first then chem? By the way, I plan to major in math and will be taking MAT 215 in the fall.</p>

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<p>Read my previous message: Be very cautious about taking organic chemistry as a freshman. If at all possible hold off until your sophomore year for orgo, and take the biology classes (215, 214, or 211 being the most common) first.</p>

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<p>I would still advise against PHY 105/106 if you're going to be doing it as a junior, three years after you've had physics before. If you're really interested in learning more physics, than take it freshman year with the other freshman taking it, most of them being physics majors. On the other hand, I don't think that 105/106 really covers different material, just more in depth and with completely different notation. I'm not entirely sure; you can talk to the professor about that if you want. </p>

<p>I know that integrated doesn't count for orgo (I'm taking that next year no matter what) but it's supposed to count for 215 and 245 (biochem). From what they've told me through email though, it's not going to count for ANYTHING. Which just makes no sense at all.</p>

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<p>tokyo, is the main reason you discourage taking orgo as a freshman because you need time to adjust to the college environment? Also, I'm still trying to figure out the physics requirement for premed. A premed at April Hosting said that a 5 on Physics C means I won't have to take it in college, but this doesn't sound right. Could someone clarify?</p>

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<p>If you have 5 on Physics C, you only need to take a one semester physics course such as:
CHM 306 Physical Chem
GEO 320 Geophysics
AST 204 Astrophysics</p>

<p>You're discouraged from taking orgo as a freshman because unless you had EXCELLENT preparation, you won't be used to the intense labwork. Also, since it's mostly sophomores who take orgo, you'll have to break into sophomore study groups. It's not like sophomores don't study with freshman, it's more you have to go out of your way to ask for help. Really, give yourself some room freshman year to get used to the college environment. </p>

<p>There are legitimate reasons for taking orgo freshman year though. Are you a chem or chem e major? Do you plan on taking other intensive lab science courses sophomore year? Keep in mind that it's almost impossible to schedule three lab courses in the same semester, especially if you're taking five courses. </p>

<p>Finally, here's the exact answer about the Integrated Science sequence given by HPA:
"Subject: Integrated Science Program, Starting Sophomore Year</p>

<p>Hi, I am interested in the genomics sequence for sophomore year in place of MOL 214. It offers exposure to biology, genetics, and biochemistry. The description says that it is equivalent to credit for MOL 214 and MOL 345, both of which I had planned to take, but I was having a hard time fitting biochemistry into my schedule. The description sounds extremely interesting and is very tempting. Do you know if this sequence is much more challenging or has disadvantages to it that I should be aware of? If you could let me know any details pertaining to the program at all, I would really appreciate it.</p>

<p>Answer: The sequence is indeed very challenging. The integrated science program looks for those with rigorous science backgrounds and strong performance. However, the program isn't designed for the pre-med; it is designed for those interested in doing high-level science, but was not put together with the pre-medical curriculum in mind nor with the thought that future doctors would enroll. The last thing you should do is part of the program (and not all of it). It has yet to be seen how medical schools will interpret the transcripts of individuals who took the integrated program over freshman and sophomore years in place of the traditional introductory science courses. But at least they did start from the beginning, so there is consistency to their path. Jumping into the second year of the program runs the risk of leaving medical schools unable to accurately interpret what you've had and what you haven't had. Especially when it comes to Biochemistry, medical schools may very likely want more depth (the medical schools that require/recommend Biochem, that is). Yes, the program "offers exposure," but medical schools will be hard pressed to determine the depth of the exposure you've had. In sum, the second year of the sequence should not be taken merely as a means of completing Biochemistry for medical school, and should not be done only in part."</p>

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<p>debryc wrote "You're discouraged from taking orgo as a freshman because unless you had EXCELLENT preparation, you won't be used to the intense labwork. Also, since it's mostly sophomores who take orgo, you'll have to break into sophomore study groups. It's not like sophomores don't study with freshman, it's more you have to go out of your way to ask for help. Really, give yourself some room freshman year to get used to the college environment."</p>

<p>This would have been precisely my response to your follow-up Weasel8488, nice post debryc.</p>

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<p>So is Orgo a more difficult course than MOL 215? I would either take one or the other as a freshman. I guess if I did MOL freshman year I could take a Physics course second semester to complete that requirement.</p>

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<p>re integrated, I think that a lot of what HPA is telling people is because they don't want to deal with it and they can't ensure anything, so obviously the safest thing to do is what has already been tested. I think a large question of that is how sure are you that you want to go to med school (vs. even md/phd). I know people in my year of integrated who are planning on going to med school (mdphd) who took the sequence and it is counting as biochem. And many deans of admissions have heard of it, and while I was looking at md/phd I talked to many of them who responded favorably</p>

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<p>Thanks debryc, but I asked that question. :) Except for the first sentence; I wanted to replace MOL 215, not 214. I didn't think that they were extremely clarifying in their answer and want to go talk to them about it but it seems to be extremely difficult to make an appointment.</p>

<p>Hmm.. I went to speak with people who are currently in second year integrated and I was told that there was only one possible pre-med in the sequence, and he's pursuing either a phd or an md/phd. There's no one in the first year, so he's essentially the first one. A lot of the hesitation is because of the uncertainty as to how the medical schools will approach it, but HPA seems so much more adamant about this than, say, EMP or anything else.</p>

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<p>I'm in the first class of students and there is at least one student who is planning on pursuing an MD/PhD</p>

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<p>Oh, I guess that the second year students didn't know that. Has he/she applied to medical school yet? Or does he/she know how credit is going to work?</p>

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<p>they are applying this year, I'm assuming that they get credit for biochem and 214, as they have not taken either. But obviously they haven't gotten in anywhere yet</p>

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<p>since we're all deciding (or at least looking at) courses right now, just thought this deserved a bump.</p>