<p>I am premed and will have to take one of these courses to fulfill my requirements. I am very math oriented, so I am leaning toward 215. Is either one known to be harder or more competitive? Any insight would be appreciated.</p>
<p>I took 215 this fall. It is taught by the worst professor I've ever had at Princeton, and I would STRONGLY encourage you not to take it. 215 and 214 basically cover the same material, and 214 is not complete hell like 215.</p>
<p>voovi, i'm doing premed as well and i was wondering why 215 was so bad, besides having a bad professor</p>
<p>The material is not like AP Bio at all. In fact, it shouldn't be called Intro to Bio, it should be called An Overview of Famous Lab Experiments in the past 50 Years, and Hopefully By The Stroke of Luck You Might Learn Some Basic Bio Concepts Out of the Confusing Mess We're Presenting to You. The professor was 85 years old, extremely cocky and arrogant, totally forgotten what it's like to learn this material for the first time; scheduled a review session for the final exam and then just failed to show up, leaving 2 TAs and a class of 40 just sitting there, wondering. We would ask him questions and he would declare that too "trivial" or beneath him to answer. And he had such an aversion to teaching us basic vocabulary or concepts of bio--instead he would have us read scientific papers that were way over our head, explain them poorly in class, and then we'd have to go home and try to figure out what he was trying to have us learn from these scientific papers.</p>
<p>Wow.. I might mention that most people recommend MOL 215 over 214. Instead of launching into a heavy explanation, here's pretty much the ultimate source of course information (aside from asking people who are already in it):</p>
<p>MOL 214: <a href="http://scg.princeton.edu/courses/000876/%5B/url%5D">http://scg.princeton.edu/courses/000876/</a>
MOL 215: <a href="http://scg.princeton.edu/courses/008909/%5B/url%5D">http://scg.princeton.edu/courses/008909/</a></p>
<p>Check out the course reviews and professor reviews. I'm planning on taking 215 next semester because of the smaller class and less stressful atmosphere (engineers are more chill than premeds, although I'm an engineering pre-med). Of course, the math-based feature is not suited for everyone. I get the impression that 214 lectures are ridiculous, though, and if you want to learn, you have to go to review sessions.</p>
<p>Voovi16, it sounds like you had a particularly bad experience in MOL 215, but are you absolutely sure that 214 would be any better? Your response contradicts what a lot of other people have said who also took it in the fall.. that worries me :(</p>
<p>knowing the mol department, I would recommend 215 over 214, but thats just me. I don't do well on memorization based exams, I prefer to understand the concepts</p>
<p>skysongz, I'm a prefrosh, so I don't have my netID yet. Could you post a few of the reviews from 215?</p>
<p>skysongz--Actually, mine wasn't just a "fluke experience". This professor has been teaching this course every year ever since its inception. A lot of Princeton students have any aversion to criticizing their professor whatsoever, so they kind of gloss over things on the Student Course Guide. Plus, any good reviews may have been referring to the lab professor, who was absolulely phenomenal, unlike the lecture professor. </p>
<p>I would highly caution you against enrolling in this class because it's supposedly 'quantitative', 'mathematical' or 'non-memorizing'. This class is not quantitative in the least sense---I think we might have plugged some numbers into a diffusion equation once or twice, and did a bit with the Poission distribution, but other than that, it wasn't in any way what I would expect a bio course for engineers to be like--the way 215 is different from 214 is that in 214, they actually teach you the basic concepts, the vocabulary, like a proper bio course should, whereas in 215 they throw random scientific journal papers at you with lectures that explain nothing and they hope you somehow garner some of the basic concepts from those scientific papers. A lot of people go to 215 because they claim they hate "memorizing" concepts or just spitting info back out on exams--well let me tell you, sure, take 215 if you think that memorizing is really that bad, but I think what you'll find in 215 is a lot worse than you can imagine--as I said before, worst class I've taken at Princeton.</p>
<p>Voovi16, do you really feel like the overall impression of 215 is negative? I've spoken to a few friends who took it last semester and liked it a lot, and a bunch of people heavily emphasize not to take 214. I have heard that the professor is a kind of arrogant and doesn't always see the need to explain basic concepts that he thinks the class already knows, but the reviews I've gotten from the 214 professor seem much worse. How about the integrated science sequence, then? I'm tempted by the description and am thinking about replacing MOL 215 next semester with the integrated sequence which fulfills the same requirement but I'm (a) really scared of the intense work load that I've been hearing about, aka. apparently 3 problem sessions a week, and (b) that it won't adequately prepare one for the MCAT.</p>
<p>Sorry about hijacking the thread. Weasel8488, I'll post some of the reviews here by the end of the week.</p>
<p>skysong--Honestly, I can only speak to my experience in the class, which I've elaborated on before. I would imagine a lot of people like bio and therefore enjoyed the subject matter enough to kind of override the horrible flaws in teaching. I mean, there's no way I can force you to take 214, but I'm just saying that if I could tell one thing to freshman, it would be to not take 215. Integrated science is absolutely phenomenal and I would highly recommend it. There is another thread about that.</p>
<p>there aren't 3 problem sessions a week, and if youre taking the second year, as I'm assuming you are to get rid of MOL 214, the problem sets are much easier and less intense, assuming that youre decent at bio. You also get out of MOL 345 and 342, which is awesome, because if I had had to take those classes, I would not still be a MOL major. On the other hand, in integrated science, its helpful if youve had some bio as they definitely skip lots of basic bio and just go over specific topics. But of the two years, i thought that it was by far better than freshman year (although bialek is awesome)</p>
<p>What do you mean by "if you're taking the second year"?</p>
<p>integrated science is a two year sequence. The first year, which you would take as a freshman, covers physics and computer science mainly. The second year, which is the one that covers MOL 215, you would take as a sophomore and covers more bio and chem. I'm assuming that since skysongx is already at princeton that he wants to start with the second year. You can do that, but you need to have taken physics, chem, and cos126 already the year before, and it is recommended that you take phy105/106, not 103/104.</p>
<p>integrated science will probably not adequately prepare you for the mcats, as you don't learn the details and definitely don't have to memorize anything. If you're premed you also have to take orgo at the same time, which can be a heavy load.</p>
<p>Yeah I won't be doing integrated. Here's what I was thinking:</p>
<p>Freshman Year: Organic Chemistry
Sophomore: MOL 215, Biochemistry
Junior: PHY 105, 106</p>
<p>I scored 5 on AP Biology, Chemistry, and Physics C. Do I need to take any physics courses for premed? Are MOL 215 and Biochem good enough to satisfy the biology requirement?</p>
<p>My personal opinion is that theres absolutely no reason to take PHY 105/106 unless you're going to be a physics major, but if you really love physics, then go for it. It's an extremely challenging course. I know a few freshman taking orgo; its doable, but usually difficult, and HPA stresses quite often that theres no need to try to "get ahead" and finish everything early. What are you planning on majoring in? (If you're not doing engineering, you have two years to decide.)</p>
<p>ec1234, you said that second-year integrated has easier sets than MOL 214? I was under the impression that they are more challenging than either 214 or 215. I took PHY 103/104 (though I don't feel very confident in the material that I learned), CHM 207/202, and COS 126. I also got a 5 in AP Biology, but that was two years ago. If I were to do integrated, you're right that I would be taking it alongside orgo, as well as ORF 245 (not too hard, decent amount of work) and ECO 362 (supposed to be pretty light). Do you think this would be too difficult? I'd like to have a few nights a week off... this year I had review sessions, etc pretty much every night, especially since I did EMP (integrated engineering) first semester. It would be really nice to get biochem done though, since I had planned to take it next summer. And I had assumed that the biology education from integrated wouldn't be too different, and that coupled with a browse through a few MCAT review books would be adequate for MCAT preparation, no? </p>
<p>Thanks for the advice, by the way, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to make a decision by the Thursday class selection deadline, especially since if I choose to switch into integrated, then I would drop my elective (Forensic Anthropology) which has an extremely long waiting list.</p>
<p>I would not take 105/106 junior year.... as a junior with jps you don't want to deal with taking such an intense and time consuming class. Either take 105/106 freshman year when physics from high school is still fresh in your mind, or take 103/104</p>
<p>Integrated counts as a double class freshman year, which means it's two classes for both semesters, and I've heard the workload is as much or maybe more than two separate classes. Taking 5 classes first semester seems like a REALLY bad idea, especially if three of the classes are integrated and orgo.</p>
<p>the problem sets ARE more challenging than 214, but not as challenging as freshman year integrated. Think of it more like 1.5 classes. Also, it covers a bunch of orgo, which means that depending on the order one of your classes would be review for a bit. You really have to talk to professor botstein though, if you want to switch into the class. The biology education is quite different, far more quantitative than you will learn in any MOL class. Also, it goes into fewer subjects, but much more deeply. You will actually understand how pathways work (ie the mathematical model and how noise can be signal etc.), even if you don't know every step of glycolysis. For the MCATs you actually need to know every step in glycolysis, and thus may need to review a decent amount. But you will be able to understand everything that you will need to know, you just may not have actually learned it. </p>
<p>You can change courses before the beginning of next semester as well, you just have to sign up for something now. You can think about it for awhile, but I would definitely recommend talking to botstein.</p>
<p>Wow, what a war this is...</p>
<p>ec1234 - MOL 214 does not have problem sets. It is only readings from the textbook "Genetics" and other articles on Blackboard. The only written assignments in the course are lab reports, pre-lab quizzes, the 2 mid-term exams, and the final exam. </p>
<p>Anyway, I was taking MOL 214 before I had to leave for medical reasons, and I would say I really enjoyed my MOL 214 experience. I was quite relieved that the material was not just a giant and more complicated rehash of material from AP Biology. The material, which focused mainly on genetics and its mechanics at first, and later on development, immunology, and some physiology, was quite new to me, and I can say I definitely learned a great deal. Contrary to another poster, I honestly believe that framing the material of the course with past experiments leading up to the present was extremely beneficial. Yes, Professor Shenk is a bit old, but he is not in any way a terrible lecturer. There are many other lecturers (I point my finger accusingly at the doctoral students in the Mathematics Department), that have a much much worse idea as to teach to students who are seeing material for the first time. The midterms were fair and reasonable (however, the 2nd one is much harder than the first), and the lab sections are very well organized by Dr. Thieringer and the TAs. Everything pretty much went like clockwork, and we even were allowed to leave lab for breaks while running gels and whatnot. </p>
<p>The best part is that the review sessions held by Dr. Issac were killer. This man knows his stuff, and MOL 214 students flocked to Thomas Lab 003 for this session. If Dr. Issac did the main lecture I'm pretty sure there would be a waiting list to register for the course. Also, the 3 lecture series on Development is taught by none-other than President Shirley Tilghman, who actually lived up to her hype as a lecturer. </p>
<p>Of course, this is all in my humble opinion. I'm only seeking to provide a counterpoint to the seemingly gratuitous bashing of MOL 214. I would say unless you're a hardcore prospective MOL major or you're an engineer, I wouldn't bother with MOL 215.</p>