<p>Which would you say is more presigious and/or has better graduate school prospects?</p>
<p>An undergraduate degree from UChicago in Econ or International Affairs (or something of that type)
Or an undergraduate degree from Brown in which one has chosen the above subjects?</p>
<p>An ivy-league school (with the exception of cornell) will always be more prestigious anyway you look at it. But if you're talking about getting into grad school, I believe that a UChicago degree may actually look better, especially considering that the school is so recognized for its econ program and is pretty well-known for having good IR. Brown is sort of known to leave a lot of room for slacking off, and it's no secret that getting a degree there isn't the hardest thing. But then again if you take the iniative at a school like brown and truly challenge yourself (which a lot of people don't do, from what I hear), then perhaps you have superior chances there.</p>
<p>Chicago is second to none in prestige in academe as far as grad school is concerned. It is often spoken of in tones approaching reverential.</p>
<p>This question sounds to me sort of like, "Honey, should I get you something from Tiffany or from David Yurman?"</p>
<p>(both are prestigious and uberexpensive jewelers.... purchases from either mean you're effing serious about a gal!)</p>
<p>I think that both Brown and Chicago have so much to offer-- both by means of prestige, but also by means of experience-- that you're better off going with whatever you feel suits you the best.</p>
<p>I'm taking donations from both Tiffany's and David Yurman. I'll even think about opening it up to Zales.</p>
<p>I live adjacent to the Yale campus and I often run into members of the Yale community both personally and professionally. Recently I was talking to the secretary of the graduate school at Yale and told her that my child was attending the U of Chicago. She became very excited, telling me that Yale prefers students from the U of Chicago for their graduate schools more than from any other college or university. She went on that in Yale's opinion they are the among the world's best prepared and educated students and that Yale gives more weight to a high B average from Chicago than they would to an A from most other universities. Furthermore, Chicago students apparently rank very highly once they are in the grad schools as well. So, at least from Yale's point of view, it is indeed quite impressive to come from the U. of Chicago.</p>
<p>Brown definitely has more lay prestige. If I was considering a field that is generally dominated by non-elite graduates, such as film or fashion, I would take Providence in a heartbeat as the Ivy connection will open doors. Harvard Square has two famous Brown alumni alone in the high end culinary business. However, for academia it is Chicago by a solid margin, and for white collar careers like consulting, banking, law and medicine it’s a push.</p>
<p>
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as the Ivy connection will open doors.
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Oh really? Maybe in YOUR mind. FWIW, a lot of folks outside New England don't even know Brown is an Ivy. Of course, most folks outside of New England don't care, either. </p>
<p>Keep in mind, too, that you are more likely to run into someone who was rejected by (or whose kid was rejected by) and Ivy than a fellow alum. </p>
<p>Trust me. No one who is not a prestige whore is impressed by being an "Ivy" alum. Some might be impressed by a Harvard alum, mostly fellow Harvard alums. </p>
<p>Regarding Harvard Square, since when is being a Brown alum doing business in Harvard square something special? After all, Brown is just another local college that kids rejected by Harvard MIT and Yale can attend. :)</p>
<p>In all seriousness, if the OP is at all concerned about prestige, then go with your emotions. After all, that's where prestige lies. Don't even bother to think about your choice, as choosing prestige is hardly a rational thought process. </p>
<p>On the other hand, if the OP cares about grad school, then the OP should think about fit and doing well. Brown is such a different place culturally, certainly the OP can think about which school might fit better, at least once the dazzle of prestige fades?</p>
<p>I would just again emphasize that an Ivy degree is not necessarily the fast track to a competitive job, or really any job. Anecdotally, I can share that my father, brother, and mother are all Ivy grads, and all of them struggled with finding jobs at one point or another, as their resume was passed over in favor of another person with a more relevant/familiar degree or more relevant experience.</p>
<p>Where the degree did help, though, was in terms of grad school. My mom had a well-known prof write a letter of recommendation for her, and she was into every school she applied to with full funding. Given the nature of the field she was studying, though, she was unable to find work in academia and she was unhappy with research, so she went back to the drawing board when looking for jobs. (Not an uncommon experience). She has since changed job fields, and a career advisor recommended that she minimize the "YALE" on her resume as much as possible, as the vast majority of people in her field are not elite college grads and tend to look down on elite college grads. She's mentioned before that there's a little bit of friction in her workplace, as she is not the boss, but she is often referred to (or derided?) as "the smart one." But she's happy as can be.</p>
<p>My brother will probably be applying to business school within the next 5 years, and the combination of his elite degree, his GPA, his work experience, and his other activities are sure to make him a top candidate, even though he had to send out a hundred letters to find his first job.</p>
<p>Another thing to consider: I was talking to UChicago alumni about post-graduation jobs recently. One particular alum is big in real estate, and he mentioned that for his field and for his location (Chicago), Chicago/Northwestern/Notre Dame kids with liberal arts degrees are fighting against Wisconsin kids with real estate degrees. (Wisconsin has the combination of being a good school with a top-notch real estate program). Though the Chicago, Northwestern, and ND kids probably tend to have the edge in analytical thinking, the Wisconsin kids have the diploma, the program, and the experience. It could take an employer a bit of persuasion to choose a Chicago kid over a Wisconsin kid.</p>
<p>"However, for academia it is Chicago by a solid margin, and for white collar careers like consulting, banking, law and medicine its a push."</p>
<p>I am merely noting that for <em>some</em> careers the Ivy name still matters (very few). Say you want to work for FOX News. The level of the analysis FOX offers is pretty low, and hence any decently educated person can do its entry level production jobs. It is mostly aggressive paper shuffling after all. Consequently, a human resources rep who went to Podunk State University gets 200 resumes from all over the board (community colleges up to Stanford). She has to pull out ten to give her better educated boss for further consideration. Unlike a major investment banks HR representative or a graduate school admissions committee, she does not have a list of target schools and an intimate knowledge of the strengths and academic requirements of each. In turn, University of Chicago gets confused with a no name public. Meanwhile, Brown is Ivy League, private, and in New York City or something right? Better pass that one on up (other things equal). </p>
<p>Overall, I am not implying opening a $75 a person restaurant is prestigious, or by any means should be ones life goal. Yet, I did meet a handful of people at Chicago who passed on more name worthy schools, and then unsuccessfully tried to name bomb UChicago in their job applications for off beat fields to no avail (i.e. becoming boutique jewelry designer at an American couture house). Simultaneously, though, I am inclined to believe that comparable overall performance at Columbia would have gotten them in the door. As another example, advertising agencies seems to be notoriously Ivy-whorish.</p>
<p>-- or maybe prospective employees should learn how to project themselves as candidates, and realize that the future employers probably don't care that you can read Greek and know quantum physics, but care that you're smart, hard-working, and creative.</p>
<p>If your friend was looking for a job in New York, I can understand the curbside appeal of Columbia to an uppity New York employer.</p>
<p>uchicagoalum,</p>
<p>Maybe your problem is hanging out in Cambridge, MA too much. I lived in your neck of the woods for a long time. Heck, I even worked at one of those "name" schools located in Cambridge and Boston. Yes, folks in your area care about these things, just like folks in Illinois care about U. Illinois (or the Michigan folks care about U. Mich). But to confuse local familiarity with prestige is just plain foolish. </p>
<p>You really should get out a bit. For instance, down here in DC where I am now, it is probably more important to have a U. VA law degree or Hopkins degree if you're north of the MD line. </p>
<p>Your example about job hunting is a hoot, especially since no one seeking a professional job goes through HR! (oh wait, maybe Brownees do? They don't know how to network?)</p>
<p>Wow. uchicagoalum, I hope you aren't out in the job market, yet. You have an odd idea how it works.</p>
<p>Also, at least from my vantage point, the number of people who (a) know what Brown is, (b) care, (c) don't recognize the University of Chicago, and (d) matter, is just about 0. For much of the world, no college has any particular prestige value, except maybe Harvard and Notre Dame. When I worked summers at home while a student at Yale, my coworkers thought I must be some kind of moron if I had to go all the way to Connecticut to find a college I could handle. And it doesn't take a whole lot of sophistication to be unable to tell much difference between Brown and Chicago.</p>
<p>Most of the people who obsess about a prestige difference between Brown and Chicago seem to be in high school, or maybe at Brown.</p>
<p>Chicago>Brown</p>
<p>My point seems to be lost:</p>
<p>no one seeking a professional job goes through HR!</p>
<p>Also, at least from my vantage point, the number of people who (a) know what Brown is, (b) care, (c) don't recognize the University of Chicago, and (d) matter, is just about 0.</p>
<p>Clearly, the vast majority of U of C students end up in the traditional medicine / law / consulting / finance / academia cluster. People in these fields know the U of C, and a student who distinguishes him or herself at Chicago will get recognized at least as much as one at Brown, if not more. </p>
<p>However, you will meet people at UChicago who come there with career aspirations that would be better served, in a non-academic sense, by other schools. You may think it ridiculous that anyone from an elite school would want to become a bilingual au pair in LA, high end wedding planner, sous chef, resort manager, Hollywood tabloid blogger, Secret Service agent, fashion magazine editor, golfing executive, sports writer or so on, but indeed there is a decent minority for which such jobs are quite enviable compared to standard white collar ones. To deny the shock value that Ivy League schools, along with Stanford, Oxford, and a few others have when one is starting out on the types that dominate these fields is overselling Chicago plain and simple. Moreover, to claim getting some of these jobs is easy is also an underestimation of the competition.</p>
<p>and the fight to defend chicago continues. gee...i wonder why it needs defending..</p>
<p>it doesnt need defending...it stands ahead or tied with 4 of the ivy league schools in rank, and ahead of all in spirit.</p>
<p>I was hoping to avoid as much "My ____ is bigger than your _____" on these boards, but such is the nature of internet discussion boards. </p>
<p>UChicagoalum, you raise an excellent point, and I think that not only the graduates of UChicago, but the graduates of other excellent, excellent schools.... Williams, Swarthmore, Oberlin, Carleton, Wesleyan, to start naming names find the same problem. It's not like people are lining up to shake your hand because you attend an elite school. If students need validation like that, I highly suggest they look at different schools and/or consider moving to Potomac, Palo Alto, Greenwich, or Bronxville.</p>
<p>I wonder how many elite college grads end up in the job fields you mentioned, uchicagoalum? I'm not arguing that the jobs you mentioned aren't competitive (they are) or that they don't take hard work (they do), but I wonder how many students are drawn to those kinds of occupations are coming from elite schools and how many aren't, and if the elite kids outplace the non-elite kids. Just a thought, I don't know the answer.</p>
<p>For me, I have a feeling that I'll be doing with my career what I could have done had I had a comm or education degree from nowhere State. I'm going to the U of C because I want to, not because I think it will do magical things for me in the real world.</p>
<p>
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Chicago>Brown
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</p>
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it doesnt need defending...it stands ahead or tied with 4 of the ivy league schools in rank, and ahead of all in spirit.
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</p>
<p>beefs, you are naive. I don't know how the hell you got accepted... oh, wait. Yeah I do.</p>
<p>
[quote]
To deny the shock value that Ivy League schools, along with Stanford, Oxford, and a few others have when one is starting out on the types that dominate these fields is overselling Chicago plain and simple. Moreover, to claim getting some of these jobs is easy is also an underestimation of the competition.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Uchicagoalum, you are either terribly naive, oversimplifying or confounding simplistic issues. I'm not sure which. </p>
<p>To start, few people are sophisticated enough to say "oh, ahhhh you went to an ivy when you went to Brown..." outside the northeast, and perhaps even there. (oversimplifying here) i.e. folks may care about individual schools, but few folks outside Cambridge MA care about "ivies" as a group.</p>
<p>Next, to think that people hiring wedding planners, to use one of your examples, give a r<strong>s a</strong> regarding where the planner went to college is just naive. They care about proven ability. </p>
<p>The biggest problem with your reasoning is this: Yes, there are occupations and employers who care about the source of one's credentials. And these folks are also sophisticated enough to understand the difference between an "ivy" and Cornell. They know that some non-ivy schools that the lay public has never heard of (Williams, Swat, Chicago to use examples) are as good or better than some ivies. To think otherwise is ignorant, provincial and insulting to the intelligence of folks doing the hiring.</p>
<p>naive why? because i love and stand up for the school im attending? ok, then im naive.</p>