<p>I disagree. These institutions at one point were not at the top, but they were in always in the consideration set. Many non-Ivy top schools have risen significantly over the years - Duke, Stanford, rice, WashU, Emory - just as the Ivies have. If anything, the Ivy status has cultivated a sense of elitism, caused higher prestige, and increased selectivity, but these are real benefits. So the prophecy fulfilled itself and what was once smoke and mirrors is reality. Just like George Mason's rise in the NCAA this year. It will now get better recruits and actually become a top program. </p>
<p>Drop the Ivy titles and the programs would be ranked the same. What you wrote is funny, but its not true. The head of USNEWS said Dartmouth would be ranked #1 yearly if it were ranked with the LACs, Middlebury isn't close. Similarly I highly doubt Cornell would fall even one place in the rankings. Ever one of the ancient eight is a great school.</p>
<p>Yeah, some of it was just [an attempt at] humor. And I agree they are all at least very very good now. But your comments like Dartmouth would be the #1 if it were ranked among the LACs proves nothing, because it has already cashed in on the benefits of being in the Ivy League. If it would have been #1 BEFORE it entered the Ivy League, that would mean something.</p>
<p>The point is, there is nothing inherently magical about these 8 colleges except that magic that we bestow upon them. Their mystique exists in our minds, not on their campuses. This Ivy-or-suicide attitude that so many high schoolers have is not a reflection of the actual value of the colleges, now or previously. If Colgate and Rutgers had been chosen 50 years ago instead of Cornell and Penn, then I'm guessing Colgate and Rutgers would be far far ahead of where they are now, and Cornell and Penn would be fine colleges that most people would barely have heard of. And even now, places like Chicago, Amherst, Williams, Northwestern, Hopkins, and MIT are social climbers' safeties not because they offer inferior educations, but because they aren't in a certain athletic conference.</p>
<p>The "value" of the Ivy League "mystique" as you put it is both intrinsic and real - in other words BOTH intangible AND tangible.</p>
<p>This is the classic case of a "virtuous circle" (definition: A condition in which a favorable circumstance or result gives rise to another that subsequently supports the first.)</p>
<p>This circle essentially flows something like this:</p>
<p>Longstanding tradition of academic excellence --> Ivy "Mystique" / Reputation / Prestige --> attracts top / elite talent (faculty and students) --> graduates go on to accomplish great things and support its alma mater (positive networking and endowment implications) --> Reputation spreads throughout academic / non-academic circles --> Fortifying reputation and continuing consistent tradition of academic excellence --> Adds to Ivy "Mystique" --> Attracts best and brightest --> REPEAT CIRCLE AD INFINITUM</p>
<p>To argue that Ivies have nothing going for them except their "name" is not only a statement without any kind of merit, it completely belies the reality that at any given time the best and brightest can be found on any given campus of any given Ancient Eight school. Perception IS reality in this case. </p>
<p>Are you asserting that the quality of the student bodies and / or the quality of faculty at any particular Ivy institution is somehow a FARCE? That in reality its completely sub-par and Ivies only trade on their name? I call TOTAL BS on that statement.</p>
<p>Ivies have and will continue to attract and retain THE best and brightest (students and faculty) for the forseeable future. </p>
<p>I love all of the "haters" who come up with these cheapshots when in truth they KNOW that Ivies are as good (if not better) than their reputation - jealousy and envy comes with the territory when you are THE BEST. Ask any Champion. Ask any Leader. Ask any AT THE TOP. </p>
<p>"It's lonely at the top".... but no place I'd rather be.</p>
<p>So keep throwing your insults - cause that's all you got baby.</p>
<p>You protesteth a bit mucho, my man. And what's with the ad hominems? They didn't teach you to argue calmly and logically at your alma mater? You might want to re-read my posts, because you are arguing against things I never wrote...and in doing so you insult the readers here to think they will swallow such ridiculous straw-man arguments against me. For example, exactly where did I say, "...the Ivies have nothing going for them except their name"? And refresh my memory, at what point did I make any comment which comes even close to calling them a "farce"? Or that in totality the Ivies are "sub-par"? </p>
<p>A few years back, I was taking an English class at a very-good-but-not-Ivy college. There was a student in the class who'd graduated from Cornell. He was taking the class to help him get certified to teach high school English. At one point he said to the entire class that he was astounded at the high level at which the class was taught--that at Cornell he'd taken some English classes and they were nowhere near as deep as that class was. I always thought he must have been exaggerating, but after reading your irrational bluster, I'm now thinking he might have been right.</p>
<p>Ivy_Grad, I don't think that anybody is saying that the Ivies aren't good schools with top students.</p>
<p>I think what people are saying is that there are other schools out there that are equally as good, or in some ways, even better, than the Ivies. For example, I don't think that anybody seriously believes that the undergrads or the faculty at Stanford, MIT, or Caltech are not as good as that at the Ivies. Or, if we just want to restrict ourselves to doctoral programs, that a school like Berkeley could easily match up with any of the Ivies. In other words, the Ivies, while certainly good, have no monopoly on the best students. </p>
<p>It's not a matter of jealousy. I am fairly certain that few students who go to Stanford, MIT, or Caltech, or are getting their PhD at Berkeley, have much "Ivy-jealousy". They might have "Harvard-jealousy", but not really "Ivy-jealousy". If anything, I suspect that many of the students in the Ivies, especially the lower Ivies, would rather be going to one of those schools. For example, I strongly suspect that Stanford would win the majority of the cross-admit battles with any of the Ivies sans HYP.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And even now, places like Chicago, Amherst, Williams, Northwestern, Hopkins, and MIT are social climbers' safeties not because they offer inferior educations, but because they aren't in a certain athletic conference.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Nobody except absolute super-geniuses can consider MIT to be a "safety".</p>
<p>I think you are extremely naive to say that people look up to the Ivy league just because its the Ivy League. I really don't understand what is the point you're trying to make. I think you're just frustrated.</p>
<p>You can look down on the Ivy League all you want. That's your choice; I can care less.</p>
<p>If a person doesn't get on his knees and kiss your behind, would you say he hates you and thinks you are worthless? Is your superior self-image so fragile that you can't even read what I'm writing? It seems like all of the non-Ivy Leaguers have no trouble seeing my point. And while you are looking up "straw man," also check out the fallacy called "begging the question."</p>
<p>I thought you promised you weren't going to respond directly to me. Ladies and gentlemen, please carefully read all the posts above, and then decide if the Ivy League is overrated or not.</p>
<p>You are using a "straw man" argument to insult the entire Ivy League... oooh! I used the phrase "straw man"!!! I'm smart!!! Give me some props!!! "Straw man"!!! This is great!!!</p>
<p>I wouldn't say Ivy_Grad is representative of the general Ivy League population, though. To this day I'm not entirely certain of exactly which schools are in the ivy league... and I applied to one or two of them last year.</p>
