<p>if ivygrad was such a stud, he wouldn't be here no offense</p>
<p>any ivy grad that goes around arguing what the top 10 legit schools are is not representative of a successful ivy grade</p>
<p>peace!</p>
<p>Guess you're not a stud either?</p>
<p>
[quote]
if ivygrad was such a stud, he wouldn't be here no offense
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I guess we're all losers according to you - including yourself?</p>
<p>Count me out on that - but you can continue to cut yourself down if you wish.</p>
<p>Quote:
And I agree they are all at least very very good now. But your comments like Dartmouth would be the #1 if it were ranked among the LACs proves nothing, because it has already cashed in on the benefits of being in the Ivy League.</p>
<p>^^^I don't know how to do the little quote thing...^^^</p>
<p>It is true that Dartmouth has "crashed in on the benefits of being in the Ivy League," but they have every right to. If LSU, Auburn, or Florida weren't in the SEC, they definatley wouldn't have the athletics they do now. All those extra bowl bids, automatic tournament bids, and tough wins over other elite teams helped them out. If George Mason had been in the Big East, then they probably would have risen to basketball fame earlier. They would have been helped out by all the extra cash to fund top notch coaching and training; all the extra TV time and sportcenter references would have helped their recruiting; etc...! So, Dartmouth has used its "ivy" title to surge to the top of the rankings, but its their title to use.</p>
<p>Another thing is how I think being in the Ivy league can hurt you in a way. Another sports example would be Vanderbilt--in football only. They are in the SEC, and so they are known for being at the bottom of the SEC. If they were in the Sunbelt conference, they would most likely be successful and be known as the top of the Sunbelt. The same thing goes for Cornell. When I mentioned Cornell around some kids at my school, everyone knew it for being "the crappy ivy." Schools like Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, and Georgetown are about on the same level as Cornell but they are known as elite institutions. If Cornell wasn't in the Ivy League, they would be mentioned with JHU, NU, and G'town and be considered awesome. However, now that they are in the Ivy League, they are mentioned with the likes of Harvard, Princeton, and Yale, and all I can think is how out of place they sound...</p>
<p>Funniest thing heard this weekend at the Wisconsin-Cornell ice hockey game.(1-0 in triple OT UW Wins--on to the Frozen Four) UW fans chanting "Harvard Rejects" at Cornell. Cornell fires back with stupefying "Minnesota Rejects".</p>
<p>Sorry that I was away for a while. I was cleaning out the french fry machine...</p>
<p>Bball: Ivy grad, like ALL of us here (especially me), probably has too too much free time, is bored by the news, and enjoys the sparring that goes on here. No need to insult his studliness.</p>
<p>Congrats on a calm, rational post, u betteracceptme. There's nothing AT ALL wrong with Dartmouth (or anyone else) cashing in on the Ivy League mystique. They'd be fools not to. And you're exactly right that the Southeast Conf. schools make similar hay out of their conference's football reputation. But you don't see football players who don't get a scholarship to a SE Conf. school thinking they are utter failures. If they have to go to Ohio State or Miami, they don't feel like they've let down their entire family. You don't see players who would OBVIOUSLY be better fits at Nebraska or USC turning down scholarships from those schools to go to Mississippi State and S.Carolina just because the latter 2 are in the SE Conf. THAT is one of the pathologies I am pointing to...the notion that there is such a gigantic gap between the Ivies and everybody else, that it obliterates all other considerations...that if you don't get into one of the Ancient Eight, you're just second-rate crap. While it might be true that all the Ivy grads are really really bright, it would not be true to say all (or maybe even most) of the really really bright people are Ivy grads.</p>
<p>barrons - i was waiting for the Cornell fans to shout either "Cornell rejects" or the ever present "safey school" at Wisconsin. :) Great game though, I thought it was a testament to how good both teams really are. </p>
<p>back to the origninal point of the thread, my votes for most overrated goes to:</p>
<p>WUSL, Duke, UPenn (at #4 by us news), with a little bit of Harvard in there (since i have several friends there and all of them are miserable and hate the place).</p>
<p>Cornell kids might beat UW kids on the SAT, but Wisconsin kids are pretty good at funny/sarcastic. That's why The Onion and films like Airplane, Police Squad, Ruthless People and Kentucky Fried Movie all are products of UW grads.</p>
<p>we hear alot of "harvard rejects" at road hockey games. Funny, I didnt hear it at the cornell vs. harvard ECAC final game in Albany. The best chant at that game was thousands of Cornell fans shouting "you have no fans!" at the small harvard fan section. They had no reply to that. And yes, Cornell fans still shouted "safey school" at Harvard.</p>
<p>um...i may be transfering to a non-ivy league (i.e. Duke), so i don't really consider myself an ivy kid at the moment, b/c its very tentative</p>
<p>I like that one. We had another classic hockey playoff game back in the day with Cornell. I think it was 1973 and UW scored twice in the last minute to win.</p>
<p>that's waaaaay back in the day, 13 years before i was even born! It's a shame somebody had to win the game last night, i think both teams deserve to be in the frozen four.</p>
<p>This whole thread cracks me up. A friend of mine who is actually interested in this stuff (TourGuide) told me about it or I wouldn't be here reading people argue about colleges in the middle of the day. I've been out for 17 years.</p>
<p>IvyGrad, back in the day I was accepted to Harvard, Yale, and Williams (is Williams Ivy? I can't remember). I turned them down for a full-ride at Emory, and I'm not sorry. For law school I was again accepted by Harvard & Yale, and decided on the full ride at UVa instead. Again, not sorry. I'm very gainfully employed and never felt excluded from any opportunity by my lack of Ivy creds, except maybe a country club membership somewhere.</p>
<p>I'm a big-city lawyer. I work with plenty of Ivy grads who are very impressive intellectually. The smartest person in the office is a Georgetown Law grad who went to the University of Tennessee undergrad.</p>
<p>IvyGrad, every person in my office, including the ones who went to schools that aren't in anybody's Top 50, knows how to argue a point by fairly meeting their opponent on neutral ground and without resorting to sneers, particularly the pathetically question-begging "you're just jealous" argument. If one of my associates tried to answer an argument made in a brief with a personal attack they'd get it back for a rewrite. I'm sure you can do better. TourGuide hasn't even offered much yet in the way of proof - just anecdote and a proposition on the table for discussion - but he's kicking your butt.</p>
<p>I'm not just saying that because TourGuide is my friend. Anyone who got a good education in rhetoric anywhere - Ivy, non-Ivy, the street, the job - can read this thread and will agree. Some of them have.</p>
<p>By the way, one thing about bastions of elitism - I don't mean to use that term pejoratively at the moment so please don't read it that way - is that they can wrap themselves in their own party line more easily than most can. Check out Thomas Kuhn's little book Structure of Scientific Revolutions on that; academia is a long way from pure in any respect, and the "higher" you go the thinner the air gets.</p>
<p>Having been out of the ivory tower for a long time (I got an MA before deciding not to go for a PhD and lock myself in the tower forever), I think the whole academic scene is funny now. There is a lot of storm and tempest about absolutely nothing, and there is a whole lot less genuine clash between ideas than academics imagine there is. Come on out into my field - litigation - if you want to see what an argument really looks like. They should be teaching this stuff in school but evidently they aren't.</p>
<p>^^^ awesome post</p>
<p>Is it just me or is trouble a'brewin'! Oh well, might as well see what happens next (I have my Pepsi, pita and hummos handy baby!)</p>
<p>You two (Tour and Long) are just posting plain rhetoric without much reason.</p>
<p>At first, after a bunch of anger-provoking humor, TourGuide wrote that he thinks people "fall" for hype of the ivy league just because of the Ivy League status. In most places where it counts (ie. outside of high school students), this isn't true. For example, here at Penn, I think most people would recognize that schools like Hopkins, G'town and Northwestern are peer schools to the Ivy Leagues. </p>
<p>Obviously the Ivy has its own identity, as does every other organization. But the identity is not what makes the Ivy League great.</p>
<p>My point is the Ivies are strong, but they would be just as strong without the Ivy title. The Ivy title perhaps gave them an edge at some point in the past, but that edge is now reality and they completely deserve their status.</p>
<p>Other non-Ivy schools have managed similar ascents (because of donations, scientific discoveries, whatever) for other reasons. The point is that those schools now are all amazing as well.</p>
<p>Please don't misinterpret this to mean that I think Ivy status gives an edge. I would have gone to Stanford over Harvard or Duke over Columbia in a heartbeat.</p>
<p>It might be a little riskier to take a recently rising school, such as WashU, because much of the benefits of the rise have yet to pay off. But a school like duke? Who cares, the Trinity class of 1950 has very little effect on my life.</p>
<p>Longpastcollege,</p>
<p>I wish I had a "disclaimer" for every person who comes onto CC and then automatically assumes that I don't respect non-Ivy schools. </p>
<p>Quite the contrary, check out my previous history of posts and my praise for other elite schools (e.g. Cal, Stanford, MIT, Caltech, etc.) are just as strong. </p>
<p>I am a lightening rod for Ivy criticism (whether fair or not) due to simple things (such as my handle) to my own particular stance / view on defending blantant anti-Ivy rhetoric.</p>
<p>I've never claimed that you HAD to go to an Ivy to be successful (but people automatically use that argument all of the time) - i.e. "hey Ivy<em>Grad, non-Ivy people are just as successful OR hey Ivy</em>Grad, there are just as many smart people who went to non-Ivies" Great! But let me ask you a simple question:</p>
<p>"WHY IS ANY OF THAT RELEVANT TO MY POSTS?" </p>
<ul>
<li>I've NEVER claimed that non-Ivy people weren't smart.</li>
<li>I've NEVER claimed that non-Ivy people weren't successful.</li>
</ul>
<p>I've NEVER claimed anything regarding non-Ivies. PEOPLE JUST ASSUME that I do and then begin and end their arguments from that misrepresented position... ("strawman" comes to mind for some reason - yeah, I get pulled into silly side-arguments and attacks but its something that is a waste of time frankly)</p>
<p>Frankly, I truly hope everyone here does succeed and that they all find their own particular success. Anyone who has spent anytime in the MBA / Business section knows that I have several posts there that have NOTHING to do with Ivy talk - its all my own views and perspectives on the finance industry (including discussions on investment banking, hedge funds, private equity, etc.)</p>
<p>Sure I defend the Ivies whenever I feel that they are being unfairly criticized - to counter misinformation / disinformation. Full stop. Nothing more and nothing less. My comments don't come at the EXPENSE of other schools - OTHER PEOPLE JUST ASSUME THIS.</p>
<p>I don't see it as a ZERO SUM game. I see it as "wait a minute, these schools are great - what's with all of the unfounded, baseless attacks?" Why does that upset other people? Am I attacking non-Ivies? No.</p>
<p>There are great schools across this nation - I never claimed that there weren't - that's a phrase I've repeated a number of times and Alexandre (a moderator and often opponent - who certainly has no axe to grind - should be able to back me up on this).</p>
<p>I (who often has Ivy_Grad's back), agree. Often times you have to defend intrinsic values of certain top institutions. Its perhaps not the best position, but in my opinion its the right one.</p>
<p>
[quote]
At first, after a bunch of anger-provoking humor, TourGuide wrote that he thinks people "fall" for hype of the ivy league just because of the Ivy League status.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Aurelius, very well said. </p>
<p>This is essentially the point that I was trying to make as well.</p>
<p>I must admit I took the "bait" on the deliberate anger-provoking anti-Ivy humor when I should have let it go. It's clear that Tourguide's main intention was to incite reaction (i.e. rather than contribute anything meaningful or constructive) and I fell for that hook, line and sinker.</p>