<p>Their Math Program is among the best in the country (Applied Math is # 1). Their economics program is equally good. Just stating facts, I have no vested interest in the school. I myself graduated from Fordham which is IMO is very underrated. And yes, I agree that CAS as a whole is overrated and outside some of the schools, what you’re getting at NYU is a brand, more so than education. Actually let me preface my statement in another way. NYU is not underrated taken at face value. But if you compare it to other schools like Emory and Tufts and see where they are ranked, then yes it underrated.</p>
<p>Vinni, I agree with you 100%. Every school has its niche program that it can proudly say is one of the best and rigorous in the country and it makes a for a very poor argument. Any tech school like WPI has a rigorous engineering program so that’s not saying much. Most liberal arts programs at BC are very demanding and the overall education at BC is far superior to WPI’s. Graduating from a Jesuit school myself (Fordham), I can attest to the rigors of the Jesuit core curriculum (English, Philosophy, Theology), and I would say the average student at WPI would be no match to an average student at BC when it comes to the liberal arts. Vice versa could be said about Engineering and WPI compared to BC.</p>
<p>^If you are comparing engineering to theology i think most will say that engineering is MUCH tougher. I think the same perspective is also shared across adcoms at graduate schools.</p>
<p>vinnyli, to make the assertion that a BC kid can handle the coursework at WPI is ridiculous. For one our curriculum is completely different from any other engineering program in the country. We take on 6 courses per semester broken out to 3 per term. Whats a semester for the average BC student 4?This is included with our major qualifying project in our senior year. So how can you tell if one person can do well in a certain area vs another? For your information I would bet my money that engineering is tougher than theology, philosophy, or english. This topic is subjective and there is no point in arguing over.</p>
<p>Math4breakfast
A) I am not comparing Engineering to Theology. I was using the entire spectrum of liberal arts courses to make an argument that each of the students at their respective schools would find the other school’s program challenging, because that is not what they are used to doing. Notice my last sentence?
B) Your screen name Math4breakfast proves my point. You eat math for breakfast. We don’t. So you can’t make a general assumption about the rigors of one school in comparison to other.
C) Speaking of graduate schools, do you have a statistic of what majors adcoms view to be the most demanding? If you apply to law school, would you not agree that a degree in Philosophy would be just as highly regarded as a degree in Math? To be able to take on liberal arts classes shows a lot of logical reasoning and critical thinking.
D) Your sentence structure, reading comprehension, and weak arguments exactly prove my point. You would also not stand a chance at a Jesuit school.</p>
<p>Yea superstar, this topic is subjective, I agree. You cannot say one is harder than the other. A student majoring in engineering decides to major in engineering for a reason, because of interest. He/she is just as likely to get a C in an upper level History/English/Philosophy class as any other major would be likely to get a C in an upper level Engineering class. It is like comparing apples to oranges, which was my point all along. Once again, notice in my original post, I wrote both can be perceived as hard depending on the person. I also acknowledged that most students at non-tech schools would probably not be able to handle engineering classes. But at the end of the day, these students at tech schools are also the ones that receive a one-dimensional and a black/white education. Just my opinion.</p>
<p>^i see your point but thats how the general public view schools such as ours and G-tech or RPI. WPI has humanites and arts courses integrated into our program and we also have a consortium with Holy Cross. I posted a sample schedule of our curriculum below. I see your point about one dimensionality but math is a form of art and science which a lot people tend to forget.</p>
<p>[Office</a> of Undergraduate Admissions - Sample Academic Schedules](<a href=“http://admissions.wpi.edu/academics/schedules.html]Office”>http://admissions.wpi.edu/academics/schedules.html)</p>
<ul>
<li>i honestly think we have the hardest curriculum in the country but others would disagree. Again its all subjective.</li>
</ul>
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</p>
<p>Not exactly. I was not comparing apples to oranges, but apples to apples. As a national university, WPI is obliged to offer majors that are not engineering majors (you should know this). BC CSOM kids are more than qualified to succeed at WPI’s weaker business program, and BC humanities kids can probably handle humanities at WPI. As for the sciences and math, BC kids oriented in the sciences and math probably can do sciences and math (and maybe even engineering) at WPI, as their SAT math test scores are similar to WPI. Shouldn’t a BC kid with the same major as the WPI kid but with better English and similar math SAT scores (meaning he is more than qualified to be accepted at WPI) be able to handle the work at WPI? I agree that it’s stressful, but by no means is it impossible. It’s like saying that Duke kids can’t handle WPI work because Duke is less rigorous as WPI (they only need 108 credits to graduate, btw). </p>
<p>I pose the philosophy question not to compare apples to oranges, but to compare apples to apples, once again. Unlike WPI, which has required projects but no core (correct me if I’m wrong), we have core requirements in addition to our major requirements. Philosophy is a year-long core requirement at BC that everyone has to take, regardless of major. So are theology, English, and history, which require memorization, critical reading skills, and writing. An average WPI kid will be weaker on the SAT reading and writing sections than a BC kid, so WPI kids are generally less qualified in the humanities, which generally require extensive reading and writing, than BC kids (no point to take offense to that, WPI is geared more towards the sciences).</p>
<p>As for engineering, I agree that it is tough, one of the toughest majors a college could offer. However, is it tougher than something like advanced philosophy (generally regarded as the toughest humanities major along with economics), or physics, or mathematics? Not really. My dad recent got his computer science/computer engineering Masters degree with a 3.93 in his major, but he has to ask me to do his analysis papers in his philosophy class. You know, the class that you consider “easier”.</p>
<p>Of course, you can always choose to get all the easy teachers for those core courses, as the teacher always determines the grade, but you can do that at both places. They tend to fill their classes quickly, though. XD</p>
<p>I am by no means trying to put down an institution here. I have respect for WPI as an institution and have always regarded it as one of the stronger tech schools in New England. However, I am trying to address a point you made earlier; the fact that you don’t think a BC kid can handle WPI work when 1) the average WPI kid is less qualified statistically than the average BC kid, and 2) most WPI kids can handle WPI work. I myself, who attend BC, am more qualified than the average WPI kid; my GPA was 3.93 and my SAT’s were 700 CR, 780 M, and 720 W. Even though I chose BC as a finance major because it interests me more than the sciences, which I detest, I have excelled in high-level math and science courses at my old school and held my own in state and national math competitions. Let’s be realistic here, do you really think that I am so incapable that I can’t handle WPI work?</p>
<p>P.S. We take 5 courses a semester. And I’m pretty sure that Caltech has a much more rigorous course load.
P.S.II This is good debate practice.</p>
<p>WPI has a core and requires 5-6 humanities and arts courses like I outlined above. You are pretty arrogant to assume that you are qualified in taking an engineering coursework because you killed standardized test scores and took math and science courses in high school. Maybe you are qualified for MIT or Cal-tech as well? First off the vast majority of students that are interested in engineering/sciences will apply to tech schools. These students have taken math/science courses and think they know what they are getting into but severly underestimate the rigors of an engineering program. There is a ridiculously high transfer/drop out rate at tech schools such as RPI/WPI/Georgia Tech. They simply could not handle the coursework and had to major in a relatively easier concentration.</p>
<p>Business requires minimal math skills hence you will probably be only limited to Calc 1, Statisitcs and basic econ math. I took calc 2,3,4 in my first year here at WPI on top of intermediary biology/physics courses. Now compare this with say corporate finance? accounting? Micro/Macro Econ? i think the former would make its case as being more rigorous. I’m taking differential topology, differential geometry and stochastic processes next year on top of other engineering courses. I doubt you can make the case that your courses will be harder than mine. I have no tangible experience with advanced philosophy but the intro course i did take was not hard relative to my other courses. This obviously only tangentially touched upon the basic fundamentals of philosophy.</p>
<p>If you want to look at stats i posted them below for WPI
SAT Range (middle 50%) (CR+MA) 1210-1420 (CR,MA,WR) 1780-2090
ACT Range (middle 50%) 27-32 composite score
Average class rank: in top 11 percent </p>
<p>Obviously BC has a better student body but we also gather a much smaller pool of applicants. BC has much better setting (Boston) and D1 Sports. If you compare only CR/M scores comprehensivley we are not too far away from BC. Also you have to understand that WPI is drastically changing and trying to attract a different applicant pool. If you would like to continue and poke fun at our students and say you are much more qualified than i am or the general WPI population then go right ahead. I am only addressing one of the points you made earlier about how WPI students not being able to handle humanities or theology courses. Thats absurd and its subjective. It would be much easier to make the transition from engineering to business/econ/philosphy than vice versa (of course generally speaking) maybe you are an exception Vinny.</p>
<p>*on a side not comparing WPI to BC is comparing apples to oranges. We are an engineering school and you are a catholic jesuit school and also about 3 times the size of WPI.</p>
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</p>
<p>I never said I am qualified to pass the engineering program with flying colors, now, did I (although even you must admit I am more than qualified enough to be admitted to WPI’s engineering program based on statistics alone)? I am not interested in engineering (but there is no evidence to suggest that I can’t do well in an engineering program), but I have an interest in business, mathematics and law. Since I am in CSOM, I would naturally study business at WPI (which is a newer and relatively weaker program). Do you really think that business at WPI is any harder than business at BC, minus actuarial science which isn’t offered at BC?</p>
<p>You may say what you want, but the freshman retention rate at WPI is somewhere around 92%, which means that most WPI kids can handle WPI work (engineering retention would naturally be a bit less). And as I said, BC students are just as qualified mathematically as WPI students when using SAT statistics. Where WPI falter compared to BC students is in their CR and W SAT statistics. I am not poking fun at WPI or their student body (why would I when some of my friends are going there?), I am simply stating facts to prove a point that BC kids are as qualified as/more qualified than WPI kids. There is no need to get angry, as I have no problem admitting that Harvard and MIT kids on the whole are more qualified than BC kids and have no need to make excuses for it. If most WPI kids can handle WPI work, as evident with the high retention rate, why can’t BC kids handle WPI work?</p>
<p>Intro to philosophy can’t compare to differential topology or discrete mathematics (I’m sure it’s at the level of Calculus I though), but higher level philosophy courses can. I have an uncle who was a double major in math and philosophy, and he says that philosophy was just as hard as math. Engineering may be able to transfer to business/econ pretty easily, but I assure you that philosophy and history are a whole different ball game.</p>
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</p>
<p>HAHA! Wow I really hope you’re joking. The IR program as well as the pre-med courses are highly regarded. Also, Tufts has a lower acceptance rate than NYU, and their average SAT scores are MUCH higher. It’s a truly great school.</p>
<p>I never said you would pass the engineering program with flying colors now did I? If i did show me the quote. You gotta get this through your head. The point i am trying to bring home is that this matter is subjective and there is no possible way that you can say that a WPI student cannot go through a BC theology/psych program or vice versa. Although the latter is probably unikely. I am pretty sure the retention rate at WPI is not 92% but i will look that up for my own interest. </p>
<p>Mathematically sure BC students are qualified but engineering is a whole different ball game which is the topic that i am referring to. BC does not have an engineering program hence apples to orange comparison. My mathematical example posted above was to show the rigor of the program and how it outshines the supposed rigor of a business program. You keep referring to econ and advanced philosophy when you haven’t taken a college course yet have you? are you really trying to compare differential topology to calc 1? if you are indeed an incoming freshman how do you know the regiments for a difficult econ/philosophy course? you really need to get some experience before commenting and stop acting like a know it all. I am being rational, dont jump to conclusions. You also keep referring to your uncle and father (anecdotal evidence) they don’t speak for the majority.</p>
<p>Kjcastillo-
I think nyus rate is lower than ours. I dot think one is clearly better than the other</p>
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<p>You shouldn’t skim my defense, then, because you completely misinterpreted what I said. I said that I was statistically qualified to be accepted into WPI’s engineering (which is true). I also said that if I were to compare apples to apples, I would be comparing BC CSOM to WPI’s business majors (WPI DOES offer business majors). You still haven’t proven to me that CSOM is any less rigorous than WPI’s business majors and that CSOMers cannot handle the rigors of WPI’s newly established business program.</p>
<p>What I am trying to say is this: BC kids are, as a whole, stronger statistically than WPI kids, so why can’t BC kids do their respective majors at WPI and pass when WPI kids can? This was the quote I was responding to:</p>
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</p>
<p>From that quote, I interpreted that you presume the BC kids couldn’t handle WPI work. I have presented evidence to suggest otherwise. And I never said that WPI kids could not handle humanities at BC. Quote me if I have accused WPI kids of not being able to handle BC work. All I said the average WPI kid is noticeably “less qualified” statistically than the average BC kid in critical reading and writing, two things that humanities prioritizes, so I am less sure that the average WPI kids would be able to handle the humanities as well as the average BC kid can. That’s all.</p>
<p>I have taken Intro to Philosophy as a college course last summer (there is such a thing as dual enrollment) and AP Calculus BC w/ Multivariable Calculus last year, and I would say Intro to Philosophy is comparatively as hard as Calculus I (not too far a stretch). Where did I say that Differential Topology was as easy as Calculus I? Quote me. I’m not saying that engineering is easy (in fact, I respect anyone who comes out of that major alive from any accredited school), but I am however calling you out on the fact that you believe engineering to be harder than any humanities major. It truly depends on the person, and I provide anecdotal information to support the fact that they are both equally challenging in their own way. No need to call me out for my “lack of experience” and “arrogance”; I’m old enough to make a rational argument without demeaning other people.</p>
<p>P.S. The freshmen retention rate at WPI is indeed 92%.
[College</a> Search - Worcester Polytechnic Institute - WPI - Admission](<a href=“http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=4120&profileId=1]College”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)
P.S.II I really don’t want any harsh feelings either way. I apologize if I was being, as you described it, a “know-it-all”, but you did go too far when you said that BC kids cannot handle the workload at WPI. Again, I have no disrespect for the school itself, but by saying that, you clearly undermine the overall intelligence of our student body. I was only trying to drive that point home.</p>
<p>Every school has its own niche market: ie engineering or liberal arts or sciences, but in the end it is simply what you make of it.</p>
<p>Also there’s a lot of talk about academics comparisons. What about looks? Check out this cool site - Calisto100.com</p>
<p>Just wanted to say: SAT math and engineering math are different. So someone who is bad at aritrhmetic and good at calculus would be successful in engineering. The SAT math isnt really a good gauge of math ability- maybe slightly accurate but still very flawed. Someone with a 700, but who passed advanced math classes could instead go to a more technical school, than a future econ major with very average math skills who was able to “beat the SAT” or learn the tricks of the trade and score a similar 700.</p>
<p>^^Can you offer us an alternative indicator?</p>
<p>*I said that I was statistically qualified to be accepted into WPI’s engineering (which is true).</p>
<p>-What are you trying to prove by this. Whether you are statistically qualified or not, you are not guaranteed success. </p>
<p>*I also said that if I were to compare apples to apples, I would be comparing BC CSOM to WPI’s business majors (WPI DOES offer business majors). </p>
<p>-Why are we comparing BC business to WPI business. The whole basis of this argument from the beginning was whether BC students could handle engineering vice versa.</p>
<p>*You still haven’t proven to me that CSOM is any less rigorous than WPI’s business majors and that CSOMers cannot handle the rigors of WPI’s newly established business program.</p>
<ul>
<li>Yes i did. Atleast form my point of view my math intensive first year including intermediary bio/physics will beat out your intro to psychology/ intro to corp finance/intro micro/macro. You take ten courses per year we do twelve. </li>
</ul>
<p>*What I am trying to say is this: BC kids are, as a whole, stronger statistically than WPI kids, so why can’t BC kids do their respective majors at WPI and pass when WPI kids can? This was the quote I was responding to:</p>
<p>-Generally speaking it will be more tougher for a psych/econ.business kid to take on rigors of enginerring than vice versa no? You hear about engineering schools weeding out students…you don’t hear about this at psych programs. Stats don’t tell the whole story by the way.</p>
<p>*I am however calling you out on the fact that you believe engineering to be harder than any humanities major. It truly depends on the person, and I provide anecdotal information to support the fact that they are both equally challenging in their own way. No need to call me out for my “lack of experience” and “arrogance”; I’m old enough to make a rational argument without demeaning other people.</p>
<p>-I mean, i have been saying all along that the topic is subjective no? I still stand by my opinion however just as you are, and i think engineering is harder than any humanities major. I am not trying to be demeaning but stating an opinion that is pretty well reasoned. For anyone it would be hard to believe that a student who hasn’t begun college could truly understand the rigor or intensity of a certain major but apparently you have taken a philosophy course and understand advanced philosophy.</p>
<p>This whole argument started off with this statement by you
*Personally and ranking wise, I don’t think the strength of WPI’s engineering is any more noteworthy than BC CSOM (as for the student body, you can argue all you want, but the math SAT’s for both are comparatively equal, so I’m pretty sure many, if not most, BC kids can handle WPI work). The majority of WPI kids having the ability to handle philosophy at BC, however, may be a different story, no offense. I hope you prove me wrong. </p>
<p>-im not sure why you went off track and started comparing our business school to yours becuase BC clearly has a better one. One thing is, is that you underestimate the rigor of engineering and you had no idea of what type of curriculum WPI has. Its clearly not traditional and cal-tech runs a similar term system although not exact. Your assertion that the typical BC student can make it through the engineering program and WPI could not do psych is absurd. Again agree to disagree. You certainly have your moment of arrogance becasue you make WPI students intellectually inferior to BC. We have comparable CR/M scores granted we are more skewed to the math side but nontheless its comparable comprehensivley. Sure you could probably get into WPI but what are you trying to tell me? that you are statistically worthy of getting in? that with your stats you can complete the program successfully? that students at WPI cant get into BC? do students at WPI really want to go to BC? again vice versa. Good discussion though.</p>
<p>Oh and this comment
*Personally and ranking wise, I don’t think the strength of WPI’s engineering is any more noteworthy than BC CSOM</p>
<p>-WPI has some pretty prestigous alums one known for founding modern day rocketry. </p>
<p>What about CSOM? The thing about business is that i can read about it like i have been this summer and learn. You can’t say the same about engineering. I am quite familiar with M&A and building a discounted cash flow model, precendent/comparable transaction modeling from scrap in addition to learning the in and outs of the financial statements. You should read margin of safety by seth klarmen one of the best value investors out there.</p>
<p>I resent that, superstar. A major in say, accounting is just as hard as a major in engineering</p>
<p>-What are you trying to prove by this. Whether you are statistically qualified or not, you are not guaranteed success.</p>
<p>Exactly, and that’s why you can’t really say that I won’t be able to succeed at WPI engineering. However, with my decent performance at math competitions and consistently good performance in high level (or college level/AP) math/science courses at my high school, along with my high SAT I and II scores for math and science, I don’t think it is too much of a stretch to say I don’t lack the ability to complete an engineering program. I could very well succeed in engineering, I could very well fail. It’s just that engineering math, which is based on geometric math, never interested me as much as statistics/linear algebra. So in reality, we will never know.</p>
<p>Now, I am going to quote myself:
</p>
<p>That was bad wording on my part, I’m sorry, but you did misinterpret what I meant to say. As you know, that was a response to the quote I highlighted earlier. What I meant to say that compared to other engineering programs, the strength of WPI engineering is not any more noteworthy than BC CSOM compared to other business programs. As for the student body, they are statistically comparable with BC having an edge in the English sections, so BC kids probably can do just as well at WPI as WPI kids. However, I am unsure of the strength of WPI kids in the harder humanities based on SAT score statistics, so I am less sure if WPI kids could compete with BC kids in an area which BC requires as a third to a half of its curriculum. I won’t argue which student body is smarter (like I said, I have smart friends at WPI and other schools in Boston), because that is also subjective.</p>
<p>I don’t exactly know about rigors of engineering as a whole aside from the top schools (that’s what you get for being Asian). I am aware of the difficulty of computer engineering (this is all I have to base it up on), however, as I used to proofread my dad’s papers for grammatical errors. I will admit I have little clue as to what he wrote about. Like I said, I don’t have any disrespect for engineering, and do believe it is difficult. As for the extent of the difficulty, I would say it is much harder than business (besides actuarial science) and comparable to physics, economics, math/statistics, and philosophy.</p>
<p>So all this time, the argument was about a misunderstanding? Ah well, good argument anyways.</p>
<p>PS It looks like my freshmen year isn’t going to be that easy, with all the AP credits I’ll be utilizing. ;)</p>