Can anyone contrast precollege Saturday programs like Mannes and MSM with a strong Suzuki program starting with an 11 year old in strings. Is the upshot when they are 17 likely to be the same proficiency and happiness wise?
My kids came up through a Suzuki program. My junior is getting ready to prep for college auditions. My son did Suzuki piano (he finished Suzuki before high school) and started at 5. Heās actually not planning on majoring in piano. Heās interested in vocal performance/composition/collaborative music. My daughter does Suzuki violin and started at 4. Our program is set in one of the largest free standing music programs in the country and has very rich non-Suzuki programming as well.
I think when starting with an 11 year old, the most important things are to find a teacher the student can have a good rapport with and that will be motivating. And help your student form a good practice habit. A Suzuki branded teacher will not start an 11 year old like they would start a younger child and I actually suspect with a kid that age the approaches would be quite similar. I would attend a recital of studios of interest. Look at what kind of group/orchestra options there are and check out those performances as well. Check the back grounds of the individual teachers. My kidās Suzuki teachers have BM and MM degrees from very reputable schools and could certainly perform or teach traditionally as well. You can get Suzuki certification without those qualifications. Some teachers use Suzuki rep without training too which is a bad idea because each early piece has very specific teaching points.
I have been watching these programs for going on 14 years. I actually took Suzuki violin in a large music school growing up too. It is hard for an 11 year old to catch up with some of those early starting Suzuki kids. But that also doesnāt mean a motivated student canāt go on in music after high school. Though violin performance auditions are among the most competitive. Teens really need to develop some self motivation to be successful with music in high school and that is really what is most important. I know a few kids in our program that started as a middle schoolers after getting a little start in a school program. Many motivated kids did advance quickly through repertoire and orchestra levels.
In a nutshell, over all I would think less about Suzuki vs. non-Suzuki, Iād look for studio and teacher fit. I would say a non-Suzuki studio might have more older beginners which could be a motivator if the program has group/orchestra options? For my daughter who is just finishing 8th grade, having a peer group involved is a big deal. It might be helpful to try a few trial lessons with a few teachers and see what seems best. Iām guessing an 11 year old could have a strong opinion. LOL.
Thank you. My 11 year old has been playing for 2.5 years and is midway book 4. Shouldāve mentioned that above.
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Iād recommend transitioning to a traditional teacher for a couple of years before attempting to audition for a precollege program like Mannes or MSM. Feel free to PM me if you want more specific information.
Oh if sheās in book 4, sheās well on her way. I would still be looking for teacher fit. Book 4+ though could easily go either way. If sheās just 11 she may decide to transition teachers again.
In our large Suzuki program, many of the Suzuki teachers are well versed on prepping kids for college auditions and do just that every year. There are few teachers very focused on the most motivated kids. Many of those kids will do their own senior recitals (possibly earlier), have done leveled testing, etc. The kids on the traditional side do the same. I would ask teachers (any type) directly if they regularly have students matriculate to performance programs and how that progression would look.
If a program of any type has very few teens and advancing kids, that would be a sign of a non-fit. Our program has enough teens to send orchestras on tour.
There is really no way to predict whether your kiddo will be more proficient at age 17 using one method of instruction over the other. She is 11. She might decide to give up the instrument altogetherā¦or switch to french horn or something.
In my opinion, your kid has a good Suzuki foundation. At this point, and as she gets older, itās really all about the teacher, and what your student does with the info imparts to your student from that teacher.
My kids were not strong playersā¦but both participated in orecollege orchestra programs, and not all of the very talented string players came from Suzuki backgrounds. Also, at the Hartt School, at the time, there were separate string ensembles for Suzuki kids and some chose to do those rather than Youth Symphony.
@glassharmonica I cannot PM since i have fewer than 15 posts - silly but true.
In any case my kid was accepted at these pre colleges and our current Suzuki teacher is leaving town - however we have a great new teacher affiliated with another Suzuki program. So decision time has arrived. Precolleges are 9-5 Saturdays - so intense. Suzuki less time for sure and itās not clear to me how much less serious the students are if at all.
Go with the teacher who is the best fit for your child now. Kid may or may not be a musician, but music learning is helpful and music friends can be a good benefit for preteens/teens. Quality of program depends on quality of teaching - Suzuki or nonSuzuki. Some people will tell you that Suzuki doesnāt count for advanced students or teens, but the Suzuki principles apply at all levels. If prestige is your main concern, go with the conservatory precollege program even if its not the best fit.
@ArmadaClouds - My son studied violin at both Mannes and MSM Precolleges (started at first and ended up at second) and is still very serious about violin and music in college, so if you have any questions about those programs, please let me know. I donāt know anything about Suzuki so I canāt help you out there, but having access to chamber music, orchestra, solfege training as well as theory, composition and conducting classes will lay a good foundation for a student who loves music. And being around around kids who also love music is really important, especially if that cohort isnāt present in your childās daily school experience.I agree with posters above however that a private teacherās skill, enthusiasm and kindness is the primary concern for an 11-year-old violinist, with equally motivated peers at at Saturday program being a significant bonus. Best of luck!
Thanks @worriestoomuch i will PM you when i gey the requsite 15 posts on this site or could you please PM me and i can reply. Thanks.
The big question here is whether your child is reading music. Pure Suzuki programs will not have your child reading music and, IMHO that is a BIG mistake.
My D started in a Suzuki piano program and stayed with the program for 4.5 years finishing book 8. Not only did here teacher insist that she learn how to read music, but said she would drop her if she did not. Her transitions (after we moved) to a traditional teacher and then into Peabodyās Piano academy were seamless. She is now preparing her conservatory auditions.
If your teacher is good, and your child is learning to read music WELL, then there is no real difference between programs. Suzuki is great in that it emphasizes listening (a truly essential skill) and constant performance. If not, the more traditional programs would be advisable
While I have no comparison to offer re: Mannes and MSM, I do have some Suzuki observations.
Pros: It teaches kids the techniques they need to keep growing as musicians and it is very well thought out in terms of building blocks. For the under 6 set, it is particularly good as kids who may not have mastered other aspects can continue to learn.
Cons: There are many. It is very rigid in terms of learning style. You basically have to do every song and do every book to reach the next one. Depending on the student/teacher relationship it can get very contentious. My kiddo disliked a few songs and had to do them until they were perfected ( we had multiple suzuki teachers and most were like this). Additionally, there is very little to no room for the child to play what they like. Itās unlikely they are going to like many of these songs. Depending on where you live and the program your child is in, it becomes sadly a competitive sport. We were in a local conservatory where the kids compared what book they were in and what song they were on. Some of them played so badly during recitals that it was painful, others had the violin singing like they were concert masters.
My child started very young about 3 (wanted to play after hearing classical music for kids on the radio) and has continued to play ( itās been about a decade now). At some point, kiddo decided that competing in music was dumb and s/he was not going to be a part of that. Even decided not to do orchestra for this reason. Still plays mainly to relieve stress during the day or while thinking about difficult math/school problems. The teacher uses Suzuki and other materials but I think my kiddo has figured out what s/he likes. Music inspires my kiddo ( and that was our goal from the beginning).
I personally would not recommend Suzuki. I think a good teacher can build a strong foundation through a variety of tools. Plugging kids into Suzuki and having them base their ability on the book they are on isnāt conducive to good musicality. The kids get bored and lose interest or they become automatons who derive their musical thinking based on books and songs. As I said, many kids had the techniques and played poorly others played so well it would make you cry. Violin is not a competitive sport and very few are going to play in concert halls. The emphasis should be on creating a skill you can do for life-not one in which you can āimpressā people.
I have one violin kid with a traditional teacher and one with a Suzuki program. Not a deliberate decision, just how things worked out. Both kids have taken part in Suzuki workshops. Both have learned to read music well.
I found that the non-Suzuki kid did just as well at integrating themselves musically into the ensemble. I have however observed first hand how the rigidity in content, pacing and style inherent in Suzuki can grate on an 11 year oldās nerves! (While there may also be some little ones who wouldnāt tolerate it, it think it mostly makes them feel safe).
What I like about Suzuki is the built in cohort, which offers a peer group, the possibility eg for international workshops, and the many opportunities for recital and ensemble playing. Though I would like there to be more emphasis on multipart playing as opposed to unison, and some pieces are beginning to grate on my nerves. (If have have to listen to aunt Rhody one more time I think I might walk out). Peer groups and ensembles that fit the child are sometimes hard to come by, and the one hard pro on the side of Suzuki from book 4+/ preteens and teens onwards.
I would very much want the kids input on the decision for that alone - if sheās to go far in music, sheās gotta have one!
If ANY teacher is rigid with a student at book 4 or higher, that is not the right teacher for you. Like I said earlier, my oldest has been done with repertoire for 4 years. The teacher who happens to be Suzuki trained is still the right teacher for him, but the lessons look like lessons he might get with any teacher with an advanced student. I also think well trained Suzuki teachers teach note reading. I have seen kids show up to big Suzuki institutes with poor note reading and the most note worthy Suzuki teachers in the country will pooh pooh at that. My Suzuki kid was note reading by age 8 and and in orchestra by a young age 9. My Suzuki piano kid started note reading day one at age 5. I think a lot of the Suzuki stereotypes do note apply to every program. My finishing book 6 kid is doing a variety of repertoire, mixing order, skipping some Suzuki stuff and orchestra focused. She is not likely to be interested in majoring in music but plays alongside some kids that are headed in that direction.
With an 8-5 every Saturday commitment, Iād leave it up to my kid. Our base Suzuki program is 2-3 hours on most Saturdays. And then the most committed kids might also do a chamber group(s) and possibly 1-3 other orchestra building up to that time commitment level (while prepping for leveled testing, etc). And theyāll be participating in much of this with kids from a variety of teachers (Suzuki and other). If your child isnāt completely sold on all day every Saturday, I might try lower commitment for a 2-3 years and see where youāre at. Iām sure those kids that do that advance quickly and push each other! Iād want 100% kid buy in for a program like that.
Anyway - I am not a paid representative of the Suzuki program! I just think you see stereotypes about Suzuki out there you donāt see about traditional teachers. Some traditional teachers donāt develop a kidās ear well for example, but I never see stereotypes about that. There are top violinists out of our Suzuki program every year that play along side top violinists from non-Suzuki programs in our large urban area. Some top kids switch teachers to a traditional teacher in high school, etc. But itās been nothing to do with Suzuki but the right teacher for them at a particular moment in their music development.
I know there are programs out there labelled Suzuki not doing a good job. Believe it or not, Iāve seen traditional studios that set up kids poorly and most kids peter out pretty quickly. If you have access to in depth college prep music, I suspect there are a lot of strong teacher and program options available in the OPs area.
The Suzuki method is a framework or tool that can be well or poorly used or anywhere in between by any given teacher or program.
I was lucky that my kids studied in a wonderful Suzuki program with an especially great teacher. He started them reading music when they were 5 and about halfway through book 1. He also liberally supplemented with additional repertoire in keeping with their particular needs and interests. They both went on to traditional teachers after completing the Suzuki program. Ultimately whether to choose a Suzuki vs. a traditional teacher lies more in the strengths of the teachers and programs as others have stated.
Interestingly my S just completed a year of Suzuki pedagogy training as part of his MM and he said that he learned that when the Suzuki method was developed in Japan note reading was not emphasized because children learned music note reading in school and it was a given that they would learn and know it already. That was initially lost or overlooked when it was implemented in the US. Currently they are taught to start note reading with their students about the same time they are learning to read.
Iām a big fan of the Suzuki Method because we had such a good experience with it but itās only as good as the teacher or the program makes it.
To the OPā¦does your kiddo want to spend every Saturday, all day at a precollege music program? My two kids spent a full day doing this but not until ninth grade. They were the ones who made the decision to go this routeā¦not me (the parent).
In that very long full day, they had chamber music, and my kids both had wind ensemble plus orchestra.
Their private lessons (on two instruments) were held on different days than the precollege program.
It was a huge commitment in time, and really, your kid needs to make that commitment.
I hear you @thumper1. Kiddo is v much involved in the decision.
Having the private on a separate day is not what I want to hear - but appreciate it:)
Does MSM or Mannes have their private lessons on Saturday? Maybe they do.
My kids did precollege orchestra, chamber music and wind ensemble on Sundays at the Hartt School. Their private lessons were on a different day. One of them did take lessons from Hartt School faculty on his primary instrument. The other took from a symphony member privately. Both took piano lessons privately as well. And one was also in. Childrenās Choir also not affiliated with the Hartt School until the end of 10th grade.
This worked for our familyā¦and their instrument teachers were terrific.
My son was encouraged to apply for the MSM program but didnāt because itās two hours from our home. Ditto Boston.
@thumper1 MSM for instance has 9 cello precollege faculty and since the program is exclusively on Saturday I am going to be hopeful and say that all the business gets done on Saturday. Are your kids happy they did it?