Hi. As S is working on his chops, I have been poking around looking at comments (face-face with people or reading other forums outside of CC) about how to manage one’s life as a musician. Figuring that spending time to get the right expectations and perspectives could combine with college musical training and networking to allow a musical ‘career’. What I have found from musicians (not here) is a Very pervasive dark outlook. Especially folks that compare today’s scene to the scene of a couple decades ago. I have read the most encouraging of reports as being skill+luck+hustle+day-job = doable. Why am I seeing these outlooks, what do they mean, how does one frame these outlooks?
Have you read through this long thread? http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/460187-how-many-music-and-voice-performance-majors-find-jobs-p1.html
I think the formula you cite has pretty much always been the case for working artists. If you do really well on the first three, then you get to forgo the day job. Being an artist is not easy. I heard an interview with an actor, I forget who-maybe Anthony Hopkins-who said if you really want to be a working artist do no have a plan B to fall back on, because if you do, you will.
@electricbassmom, you put it very well. As parents, we want to do everything to make sure our kids will succeed, but there are no guarantees with art. So we encourage the dual degrees and Plan B’s, but that’s not the right path for everyone. Some people have no choice; all they want to do, all they really can do, is make music or art - it’s as essential to them as breathing.
One of the most informative and entertaining articles on BM vs. BA I found is on Peabody Conservatory’s website:
http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/conservatory/admissions/tips/doubledegree.html
@GoForth, you are not alone with your concerns. After all, even a mediocre lawyer, accountant, engineer, etc., can make a decent living, whereas many excellent artists struggle to make ends meet. (On the other hand, every musician I know loves what he/she does for a living, while I can’t say that for the lawyers I know…)
It takes talent, hard work, drive, and persistence - often for many years - to make it. Our kids have to figure out for themselves over time if they have all of that. I’m sure many parents feel like John Lennon’s Aunt Mimi who told him “The guitar’s all right John, but you’ll never make a living out of it.” Who knows, some of us may be as wrong as she was!
The way to frame it is making a living in the arts has always been fraught, that for every star soloist or top billed hollywood actor, there are those who cobble together living (the Law and Order franchise in NYC has especially been valuable in keeping actors going; once went to a Broadway musical where one of the actors listed as an accomplishment “never been on Law and Order” lol). Anthony Thomassini, the chief music critic of the NY Times, put it well in response to a query from a reader about it being difficult to be in music, and his response was it always appears like it is difficult to be in music. …and I think he is correct. For example, it was only after WWII that you saw true full year round orchestras (in the sense of being employed by the orchestra, having benefits and such), before that members of orchestras like the NY Phil were in effect part time employees, so they had to find other jobs and such (today if you get in, the NY Phil has full benefits, and the pay by arts standards is very, very good)…so there always has been that element of being difficult, risky, etc.
That said, I think the gloominess is because a lot has changed in the past decades, and it has taken away from things musicians used to count on. For example, a lot of the work in doing soundtracks and similar things is either being done with synthesizers, or is being farmed out overseas (put it this way, you used to see soundtracks done by the London Symphony and such, these days it often goes to Eastern Europe because musicians are a lot cheaper there). While Broadway pit orchestras still exist, the size of them has shrunk and producers have been pushing to use either recorded music or synthesizers. Regional orchestras and smaller orchestras, that once could be counted on for some income, likewise have dried up in recent years. Session musicians for recordings have likewise dried up, are a lot less common then they once were.
Gig work has become a lot more competitive as well, the level of playing required for gig work has shot up, too. Musicians I know of from prior generations today would have a hard time with their skillsets competing with kids coming out of music schools today…
This by the way is true of all forms of music, with pop music, with the crumbling of the record company model of ‘making it’ (which fo course was always a relatively limited number of people who made it to that level), streaming of music and so forth have changed things a great deal there. There are opportunities, with the old distribution model getting broken, where record company R and A guys and the chain of marketing and such deciding who gets recorded, musicians are finding they can get their stuff out there on their own, so technology has taken some things away, but it has given other alternatives, and of course live performing still goes on.
So does that mean someone shouldn’t major in music? That if they do, let’s say a performance degree, that it is a futile waste of time, that they will forever be mired in genteel poverty? The answer is no. I still would tell someone if they aren’t sure about music, not sure of their passion, they may want to pursue something else in college (and maybe do music as private lessons, and so forth, ‘on the side’, or maybe as a dual major ba/bs kind of thing), but getting a BM degree is not the end of the world if you find you can’t make a full time living in music, either. There are a ton of ex musicians or current musicians who work in fields like IT, for example, and as others point out, a BM degree is a college degree, that in terms of many jobs is no different than getting a bachelors in a liberal arts field (and for example, despite what people think, it could be a lot more valuable than a general business degree undergrad, which has become a)saturated with people thinking that means $$$ and b)is seen by more than a few employers as the kind of major that slackers and frat boy types take because they think it makes them look serious, but isn’t necessarily that demanding.And yes, it would matter where you got your degree, a bba from Wharton or Harvard or Northwestern or U Mich would count more than getting a bba from some generic college…). Employers know how difficult music performance degrees are (and I am speaking as a hiring manager of long experience), and if you want to go to grad school for something else, it could actually help in admissions, depending on the area (BM music majors get into major grad programs in Medicine, Law, Comp science, MBA programs, and may weigh more heavily then a standard liberal arts degree might).
My perspective is go in with your eyes open, understand how competitive it is, how fraught the arts are in general, but also know that the process of attempting to be a musician, doing a performance degree or a BA in it, has a lot of major life training with it, much of it unique (yeah, yeah, I know what the woman who wrote “Mozart in the Jungle” claimed about studying music, but having been around a lot of talented music students, many of them also are academically out there, bright, and when you get into conversations with them obviously are on the ball), so it is never wasted, whether you do it part time, whether you cobble together a career based on doing different things, or whether you get lucky and get into a major orchestra or otherwise ‘make it’
I have been reading the link from @SpiritManager and am only on post #123 at this moment. I may have read this post before, but am going over it again. I know my post probably sounded redundant, but I had to do it. After reading through a huge amount of the forum here and thinking that S’s current course of action was alright for now, I started looking at post-college scenarios. I really stumbled into a thread of dark gloom that contrasted with the spirit you see here. However, even there, I finally found some counterpoint posts.
So, I started looking around, because I am one of those curious type of person, and found some neat stuff. For example, search the internet for “cruise ship musician”. There are jobs there to audition for. Several sites that seem to be recruiting agencies for entertainment venues list expected pay for different positions. What I am looking at here - is there a way for a dedicated performance musician to go grab a musical job if the musician can be flexible on other terms. I plan to look at what market options can exist, such as this cruise ship one that I just mentioned. Knowing about options or “Plan 'B’s” that are still music performance will probably be a good frame of mind to work with. The only music performance job types I have been envisioning were either orchestral member or a gigging band member running around the city in a series of gigs. I do not recall seeing a performance-only list like this:
A) orchestral member
B) gigging around city
C) playing on a cruise ship
D) house band member in Vegas at casino (I made this up without checking)
E) navy jazz band
F) full-time wedding band in major city
G) and so forth…
Somehow, it has made me happy to think of a list of this format that can be worked on to make it larger and more hopeful. I also have started to look at the audition requirements for some of these newly-found job types (I am actually only talking about cruise ship right now), just to be aware of common themes - just like one looks at the audition requirements for their favorite college choices and tries to find common denominators and re-usable pieces.
I also spoke to friends and received private messages on the topic of this thread and come away with the composite response that the following ingredients should serve well: 1) commitment to the task, focus, grit and 2) breadth of awareness, social, and business.
Do you know, I am an engineer. I went to school for that, and I have been at it for 25 years. I am also a bit of a free spirit. I was able to cope with my job/career when I became an independent contractor, these last 15 years. In one of the bigger recessions in our industry, it was not only hard to find work, but the pay rates were fairly low. There was no telling if they would ever recover. I didn’t like that, so I decided to prepare a plan B. I started a janitorial service while I was still doing engineering. It was pretty cool and had much more freedom. I found I could make about 60% of the hourly rate by cleaning that the engineering rates were approaching. I swore that if the rates were ever equal, I would not offer any more of my engineering services, and I would ramp up my janitorial services. I did not really relish having to start hiring and managing on the janitorial side, but never grew quite big enough to need that. Then, the engineering market turned around, and I leaped right back in with all my spare hours. It was all good.
GoForth, engineering is one of the relatively few areas of study in college where it’s “normal” to actually work in your field upon graduation 
It’s vastly different in other undergrad disciplines, especially these days. So when assessing music as a college degree, remember that if your son were to pusue instead a liberal arts degree, or English, or physics, or history, or even math, there’s really no predicting how they might come to use that degree in terms of self-sustainment. (The exception to my mind is computer science…)
As a degree, music is more like engineering in that at good programs it includes concrete vocational training and is more akin to being a professional degree (like engineering, law or medicine) than a liberal arts degree.
With that said, I truly believe that pursuing a music degree (or any BFA for that matter) should be for the intrinsic value, the love of play and the life of your mind, as opposed to the extrinsic notion of career placement, if you get the distinction.
I have two relatives and one friend that earn their livings in music after a fashion. One via cruise ships. Its a great lifestyle for the young. Its much more difficult in middling years due to the desire to settle down and the practical considerations of family.
The second supplements live playing with being an adjunct professor at a university and teaching at a performing arts school. He’s recently discovered a growing opportunity for music therapy with seniors.
The third is a full time classical musician who gigs out a lot at formal affairs.
I don’t think any of the three would change their lives as they are doing what they love, which is more than I can say for many of the folks I went to school with
But at the end of the day, none of us can reliably predict where a path will go after graduation. Eg. I have many programmer friends who are musicians The form, not just content, of the undergrad degree is what’s most important, and music school offers great form, and a great set of transferrable skills. Form survives the vissitudes of life…not content…we don’t even know what jobs will exist ten years from now
Some musicians do major in music for a BA, in a course of study that combines liberal arts and music training. Soe musicians do fine studying something else entirely and still taking lessons and performing.
Your son is still pretty young and a lot can change in the next few years, so I think it is important to emphasize that he is not locked into a path just yet.
Graduate musicians, no matter what degree they got, have many options in music (arts administration, running festivals, teaching, non-profit work, performing as you have listed) and outside of music (just like any other bachelor’s) and can go to grad school or professional school as well. I would not worry about it too much (spoken from someone who was in your position about 10 years ago).
If you go online to order books at all, there are several good books out on the topic of carving a music career. I own a copy of “The Musician’s Journey: Crafting your Career Vision and Plan” by Jill Timmons. The Internet and other social media, fundraising mechanisms like Kickstarter, and, in general, a new emphasis on entrepreneurial efforts, have changed music quite a bit. Also, in the city where I live, most of the best musicians free lance and seem to play in every classical gig in town!
Goforth, you had mentioned that your son is a bassist. I am also the parent of a bassist. One suggestion I have is that your son join the International Society of Bassists. Attend the ISB conference at some point before he heads off to college ( this year it is in Colorado). It is an amazing experience that is represented by all ages and genres of bass players. It is quite an experience to see hundreds of these instruments convening in one place. ISB will expose your son to so many people ( they have a college day at the conference and many sessions for young, high school bassists). You may also want to read the various threads on Talkbass.com. Another useful source is Jason Heath’s site. Jason is a bassist and teacher; he has a library of podcasts that are interviews he and others have done with top bassists. He is honest but not gloomy about the challenges he has faced making a career in music. Jason has a performance graduate degree from Northwestern and, after many auditions and patched together gigs, is now a HS music teacher. He still plays in orchestras and teaches at a couple of colleges as an adjunct.
Attending audition-based summer festivals can help your son get a sense of his level of playing as well as making connections with peers and teachers. These experiences can motivate kids and can also help some, such as in the case of my daughter, re-evaluate and opt for a plan B. We never discussed having a plan B with D. She is a good violinist but was not at the level she could be satisfied professionally with. Three festivals and 10 years in regional youth orchestras helped her decide the best path for herself. Today D continues to play in regional orchestras, does wedding and church gigs (she had a very lucrative Easter weekend playing services) and plays in a chamber group. She is entering a PhD in neuroscience this fall and hopes to continue her music at her new school.
Each person’s musical journey is so different; there is no way to predict the outcome for your son or even what the musical work world will look like by the time he graduates college (6 plus years from now). The instrument, the artist’s temperament, other skills the artist has factor in when assessing outlook.The learning gained on the music path is priceless and, as others have mentioned, is much more than facility with an instrument. Your son sounds like a sharp fellow who will know what path to take when it is decision time.
Hi, hornet. Thanks. I think I have entered “stage 2” of being a CC parent, after the “stage 1” of “wild confusion and panic”. Actually, talkbass is where I had seen a thread with the dark outlook in post #1 of this thread. It is a somewhat of useful site, especially for the buy/sell forum. Thanks for the heads up on the other opportunities - I’ll pass them on.
On the forecast for now, after a DCI summer that will subtract some bass chops, trying the Midwest Youth Artists through the Junior year of high school. After that, in the summer of 2016 between the junior and senior year, it is not clear what will occur, but it is clear that it’s a fairly important stretch of time - the last summer before college auditions. One of the bass instructors this year for Interlochen had met my son recently and encouraged him to go there this summer, but we were booked already. We’ll probably worry about summer 2016 in about 8 months from now, as chops and networking connections are built up in the meantime.
At what point/age did your D choose to pursue neuroscience? One thing I told S was keep the good grades in HS and cover all the classic building-block courses so that he could have a solid foundation and have the ability to change course if desired. He might want to continue the same idea in college to make his electives the best for supporting potential changes in direction. One helpful poster here commented on the potential weakness in the elective courses at an otherwise great music school - I ws not paying attention to that until lately, and it could be important - did your D find that to be so?
I read much of the John Heath site mentioned by @hornet. It was quite a lot of up-and-down feeling to it. One dichotomy in my reading is where John mentions that getting into a major orchestra requires nothing other then playing skills and not necessarily people or other skills. Whereas other writings on being a musician in general seem to applaud a mixture of playing skill, business wisdom, and social charm. S and I were just talking at dinner last night about what are the cornerstones of musicianship that he might keep in mind as he decides which camps, jobs, or other activities to pursue as he goes along - would a sales/leadership non-musical activity ever trump a primary instrument activity. It seems like there could be non-reconcilable opinions on even this basic idea.
If you have a steady job in a major orchestra you aren’t trying to win a new job with your bedside manner every night. If you play jazz being easy to work with goes a long way, as does being entrepreneurial. You are your own business.
Saintfan has summed it well in terms of musical genres and expectations. Social expectations vary according to the work. Because the bass is such a versatile instrument, there is no one way to approach building a career as a bassist. Heath has worked in a lot of these genres so he does, at times, seem all over the map in his comments.
In the orchestra world, as Saintfan indicated, it is all about playing. Auditions for major orchestras are typically done “blind”. Persons auditioning are given a number and play behind a screen for the audition to a group of judges. The judges choose the player on sound and nothing else. No one is interviewed other that having a check-in for the audition. The chosen musician is then hired on a trial, usually for a year. If the musician is a bad fit for the orchestra in terms of personality, work habits, etc the contract is not renewed.
This may be silly or naive in my part, but I do not worry about employment for my bassist. There are many job opportunities for excellent and versatile bassists. Yes, it could mean lining up several things in order to make a living. I have confidence it can be done. Easy? No…but I cannot imagine my son doing anything else (nor can he).
We are not classical people, but by observation it seems that the one gig model (if it ever really existed) is mostly over there as well. There seems to be a rise of the equivalent of classical “bands” along with all the special interest chamber groups like early music etc. People have to be prepared to get around and have many irons in the fire.
First: My son gets VERY Angry when people suggest he has a plan B. His attitude is that is music suicide to have a plan B. More importantly he is always pointing out the amazing skills he is learning by being a musician and knows that if he has to he can translate those into something to make money.
And I get why parents worry. I worry. But hey I am also worried about my musician’s older brother who is getting a PhD in mathematics. Why? Well NSF just de-funded and is causing two key institutes in his specific field to shut down after this year. Turns out there is not enough money. Never mind that the type of research going on in these institutes is key to helping us work on problems like curing cancer, climate change, traffic problems, and social ills. Never mind that anyone who is anyone in the field (internationally) has spent time at these institutes. NOPE…doesn’t matter because these days if you are scientist you are also going to have to go out and hustle to try to get money in hopes of supporting your research.
We are living in corporate USA and the arts and sciences are simply not valued. There have been times before in history when this has been the case. Before corporations there was the church. Artists continued to do art and scientists continued to do science. It is what humans do. I am proud of my children for not caving in. And yes it is going to be an uphill climb for them. But I would rather have kids that believe in what they are doing than kids who are going off to just make money and sit in a cubicle all day.
I hate to be the “dark” voice in a thread. But as a 30+ year professional musician I am big into plan B. Not because its impossible to make a living playing, but because the COST of making a living playing music can be so high. It is so hard to maintain relationships, a home, a sense of belonging while touring.
I live a plan B life and love it. I play at the highest level a couple times a month, and I have a home and family. Of course, mine is the voice of experience after a decade plus on the road.
I thought this was an interesting perspective . . .
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/04/14/music-industry-jobs/25787067/
I hear what you are saying singersdad, but when you are young and without commitments, that seems to be the time to live the musicians life and save your plan B lifestyle for when you want to settle down.