My child is merely average.

Parents Forum
181

<p>"Have you ever had a conversation with someone who is, shall we say, less than stimulating? People are NOT the same with respect to natural intelligence and ability."</p>

<p>i agree that people are not all endowed innately with the same amount of potential, but by the time one has a conversation with someone, their intelligence has had plenty of time to be affected by the environment. there's a famous french study in which orphans with an average IQ of 77 were adopted into various families, and later on they measured their IQ again, finding that the kids who went to low SES families now had average IQs of about 85, the kids who went to middle SES families had an average IQ around 90, and the kids who went to the highest SES families had average IQs of 98. </p>

<p>the numbers may be off bc i am going by memory, but the basic premise is what's important -IQ is malleable to some extent, so someone's current intelligence may not correspond to their innate potential for intelligence. oh, SES correlates pretty strongly with IQ, so the kids who went to the high SES families were raised by relatively intelligent people, in addition to greater access to resources.</p>

<p>that being said, I think people are born with different capacities, upper and lower limits of where their intelligence could end up depending on environmental factors. a kid with average capacity won't become a genius by having wealthy parents and spending his/her time with geniuses.</p>

<p>i think the kids who work hard to get a C in their weak subjects end up being more satisfied than the kids who get A-s but know they could get an A if they worked harder. i am definitely in that second category. i procrastinate so much that i have to rush through my work. It causes me some mental duress (although i try not to beat myself up) bc i want to be a hard worker but somehow can't find it in myself. certainly being a hard worker is more morally admirable .</p>

182

<p>DadII- I really do think you have a skewed view of things as a result of your own focus AND this forum.
I can assure you that not only are the majority of kids seeking admission to 4 year colleges shooting WAY below most of the schools discussed on these forums, but most are absolutely content with their aspirations and choices. In my neighborhood, which I consider pretty affluent, the majority of kids go to state univerities which are NOT the flagship. They have never heard of and certainly never considered most of the schools you regard as the only possible options. My successful and educated neighbors still wonder why we are sending our son to that big state school up north (he's at an Ivy that is often confused with a state football powerhouse).</p>

183

<p>I know several high SES families who adopted kids from other countries and lavished everything they could on the kids but the kids are and were and are not interested in attending college or any particular profession, despite both adopted parents & most of the adults they encounter being college grads & professionals. These kids are all still trying to figure out their paths--graduated from HS & aimlessly drifting from one dead end job to the next. Their parents have offered help but the kids continue to drift. (I also know this isn't always the case.)</p>

184

<p>People, people, you are trying to solve a problem which has confounded social theorists and geneticists for decades and I guarantee you won't sort it out on an anonymous message board.</p>

<p>I think the message to the OP is that all things being equal, even bright kids vary quite significantly in their drive and motivation at the age of 17. If we lived in Europe where kids were tracked at a young age, her daughter would likely end where some bureaucrat decided she should be. (Like my cousin who works at a commercial bakery decorating cakes. If she'd been born in the US she'd probably be halfway through a BS in Engineering). But we don't live in Europe, and your daughter has many, many opportunities to discover something she's passionate about.</p>

<p>If it's cake decorating then great- but trade school doesn't need to be her starting point given her academic record. I think many of the posters here (when not being needlesly cruel) have given insightful comments as to how grief can impact a young teen. I lost my parents in middle age and it took a very wise therapist to remind me that sometimes just getting out of bed is a major accomplishment. How wonderful that this kid has been able to do so much more than that- and maintain her balance and kindness to boot!</p>

<p>OP- let us know how it goes. Your D sounds like a very resilient person.</p>

<p>Have you read any of the recent works on Emotional Intelligence? A good and relevant read I think....</p>

185

<p>^^HIMom
yeah but they probably would've ended up less intelligent if they didn't have all those advantages. motivation is a whole different beast (perhaps they are intelligent enough for college, but they don't have the drive for whatever reason).</p>

186

<p>HiMom, I am not aware of any large sample study which confirms your observation. I believe there are many studies of small populations where the kids suffered from FAS (fetal alcohol syndrome), abuse, or born prematurely which does confirm that environment in these cases is generally not enough to compensate for early trauma.</p>

<p>Are you suggesting that the OP's kid is somehow not a product of her environment?</p>

187

<p>"For example, the average of SAT or whatever test. How many of the test takers were really trying to get into a 4 year college? Why do people think the CC kids are not the norm? This is, afterall, the place for those who really want to go to a 4 year college. I think the GPA and test scores on CC are a very good representation of those with a common goal."</p>

<p>You have got to be kidding, Dad II. This is not the place for those who "really want to go to a 4 year college." This is the place for those who want to go to the most elite colleges for the most part. The vast majority of students want to go to a local university or perhaps a state flagship or state directional school, and simply have no interest whatsoever in Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford or all the other top schools that you think the world revolves around. And their parents are FINE with that. HAPPY with that. They know that one can have middle class or upper middle class just fine without necessarily going to HYPS. I don't think you've fully internalized that yet. Just remember the post where you and your wife were coming home from a party and you expressed surprise that someone could actually be proud that their kid was going to the state flagship? Guess what - that's the majority of people. CC is a VERY skewed, "abnormal" forum in that regard.</p>

188

<p>"You're standing on very soft ground. It's ludicrous to claim that "ALL kids / people are about the same intelligence / talents," because it just isn't so."</p>

<p>I completely agree. Even taking into consideration healthy, well-cared for students in stable, functional homes, there are still differences in intelligence and talents among them. My college roommate played the flute at our high school. She worked very hard, practiced way more than anyone else she knew, loved music, and had no physical reason not to succeed. She did very well, but could never match the accomplishments of another girl at our high school. This young lady was a cheerleader and took all honors courses, so she was very busy. Yet she was an amazing musician; she made all state first chair, and also made all state in choir while putting very little work into that endeavor. She was simply considerably more talented. I could say the same about some wonderful artists I have known. I could spend every minute of my life working hard to draw or paint well; I might improve over the stick figures I currently can produce, but I would never be able to come even close to the artwork these talented individuals create so easily. My Dad has a knack for drawing caricatures. He never took a lesson, but he can just do it. Same with piano. I took lessons for three years as an adult and was so frustrated by my inability to get through even a simple piece without making several errors, even though I practiced like crazy. My Dad never studied music or took any instrumental lessons. He can't even read music, yet he can play sophisticated pieces on my piano simply by listening to them only a few times! It freaks me out sometimes.</p>

<p>No, people are definitely not all of the same intelligence/talents!</p>

189

<p>"My successful and educated neighbors still wonder why we are sending our son to that big state school up north (he's at an Ivy that is often confused with a state football powerhouse)."</p>

<p>That's exactly what happened to the son of a friend of ours - he was a Penn legacy - got admitted to Penn off the waitlist - and everyone around here thinks it's the same thing as Penn State. Dad II, you come from a culture where getting into the best universities makes or breaks you. That isn't the culture here. I guarantee I can find you tons of small business owners, for example, who enjoy a very nice, affluent, upper middle class lifestyle who don't spend a minute of their lives thinking about the Ivy League, wouldn't know Dartmouth or Brown from a hole in the wall, think about college mostly from the perspective of their state flagship and football/basketball championships -- and that's FINE. And if their kid goes to Northern Illinois University -- well, that's fine too. As long as they are happy and healthy and productive. Even though I myself have a bit of the snob in me, I have to say -- at the end of the day, they're right, and they're far more emotionally healthy than the parent who sets up a list for their kid that is HYPS only.</p>

190

<p>"I think you are judging the world by what it takes to get an A in something!"</p>

<p>I thought that this thread is devoted to discussion about grades, I never meant anything else, including brilliant actors, musicians, speakers, leaders, ...etc. Sorry if I am wrong. However, I still believe that I am and members of my family are just average people who are successful because of hard work. I also have observed other people around me and concluded the same. I am no expert and no teacher.</p>

191

<p>My antennae about the veracity of this thread are also up, I must admit. A little checking reveals that the OP talked last yr about her HS aged son, of at a boarding school, and said
[quote]
My son is an only and went off to BS 20 miles from home with three of his 8th grade classmates.

[/quote]
If he is an "only", where and how did the daughter miraculously appear on the scene this year? The OP hadn't posted since last year (when posting with FA questions for the son) and then resurfaced with this HS sr daughter. Hmmmmmm........</p>

<p>Mention was also made ofthe OP having
[quote]
wound up with a scholarship to a PhD program at a major university

[/quote]
but also apparently has a 20 yr old outstanding college loan??
[quote]
I say this as someone who went to a very name-brand school; still have a 7500$ balance on a student loan taken out over 20 years ago

[/quote]
This certainly isnt impossible, it just sounds a bit incongruous. </p>

<p>There was discussion about the father of the "only child" son being deceased, but no mention of the daughter or her father. There was mention of the OP having had a car accident with settlement money (have no idea if this is realated to the dads death or what). So, is this daughter really a daughter? Has the OP remarried and this is a stepdaughter?? Is any of this real?? It does cause one to wonder......</p>

192

<p>"I thought that this thread is devoted to discussion about grades, I never meant anything else, including brilliant actors, musicians, speakers, leaders, ...etc. Sorry if I am wrong."</p>

<p>When you spoke of "talents," I did not understand that you were speaking about grades. I only use the word "talent" to describe an ability that is not related to academics. But I guess someone could also be a "talented mathmatician," or a "talented physics student." At any rate, I still disagree that all kids are of the same intelligence/talents. I've seen too many examples of kids who work their butts off, yet still don't match the accomplishments of some of their peers, whether it be in academics or the arts.</p>

193

<p>Well the part about the loan balance after 20 yrs is pretty believable to me, but I too saw a lot of "red flags" when I first read the post. </p>

<p>OTOH, it has gotten pretty interesting.</p>

<p>I live in a city where I doubt there are more than 10kids aspiring to top ten schools. My D is like some kind of legend around here, and she never even HEARD of the school she attends before 2 years ago.</p>

<p>In this same town we went to a live auction for all the "movers and shakers" a few days ago. We have finally "arrived" as important folk ( H is vp of a regional medical group)! There were two tables of local doctors, and we ALL sat on our hands, so as not to be seen as "bidding". The winning bidders ($1000's for cigars, wine, and decorated Christmas trees!) were all businessmen, who may not have even attended college, let alone gotten graduate degrees!</p>

194

<p>Agree that the discussion is interesting, shrinkrap-- just not completely believable. I also double checked the OP's original post last spring, when she spoke of her son applying to school "next year" (that would now be this academic year). Now, no mention of that son, who supposedly attends a boarding school with 100% college acceptance rate, but instead of this "slacker" (my words, not the OP's) sr daughter?? Sorry, something just doesn't pass the smell test. I could be wrong, but....</p>

195

<p>DadII, I do understand what you mean by relativeness and comparison. I think it does explains lots of feelings we have about lots of stuff. </p>

<p>But the huge difference is we are talking about our children. Not our incomes, our houses, our cars, our personal achievements, to which we have much more control. Children are separate selves with different abilities, motivation, personalities and self-determination that is not necessarily like us, nor our possessions. </p>

<p>Our children's abilities, motivation, personalities are shaped by a multitude of invisible but interacting biological and social forces. While we try to control the parts we can and create the optimum environments for our kids to thrive, we are not solely responsible for how they blossom; and we should take neither credit for our children nor blame either. Yes you as a parent are responsible for SOME variance in who your child turns out to be, but only some variance, not all. It's a parental delusion that we can somehow control and mould our child to be our version of perfect. </p>

<p>I do not expect to convince you. This is like politics or religion. You have fundamentally different values and assumptions than I do.</p>

196

<p>This may be slightly OT (though I think others discussed this issue in here somewhere).. my DH was at a dinner meeting last week with a bunch of folks who all live/work near each other in a VERY exclusive subdivision of VERY expensive houses (think NFL and MLB players). The conversation turned to college, and every one of these guys (lest I say-- good ol' boys) talked about their kid applying to or attending either the big state flagship U (which several of them attended) or one of the smaller, lesser known and maybe 3rd tier state schools. NO mention of the private schools (either local or regional) let alone any mention of any Ivy-equivalent school. In fact they seemed a bit surprised that our kids attend(ed) top tier private schools. We live in a nice, but not ridiculous house. We choose to put our money into education- not fancy houses/cars (in all fairness, I must acknowledge that a few of the people at that dinner could easily afford to do both-- they did well in a business venture and can afford big houses, fancy cars and full tuition at top private colleges). Anyway, I digress. While I have no idea how strong a student any of their kids are, my DH was just surprised that they were all perfectly confortable with, and only considering sending their kids to one of the state schools. Period.</p>

197

<p>blossom: No, I have not read about Emotional Intelligence, but it certainly sounds intriguing and the discussions of nature vs nurture are fascinating. Really, why ARE some kids naturally smart? </p>

<p>I have two more points to share and then I may retreat, because some of the comments here directed toward me are quite cruel. Many are well intentioned and offer good insights, but some of you are really quite nasty and mean spirited. </p>

<p>First: I thought the McGill idea was a good, practical suggestion, and their website's admission information indicated that D was within the ballpark for admissions. D is fairly open minded to suggestions, so I mentioned the idea of McGill U to her; she wanted to know where it was, so I said Canada. Mind you, I have always loved our neighbors to the North, have visited on vacations a few times, both Western and Eastern Canada, and just assumed that most people in my family felt similarly. But no! D said, "I don't like Canada." Shocked, I asked why. Well, it turns out that a certain animated cartoon spends a bit of time making fun of Canada (ehh, dontyaknow, hockey), which D has somehow absorbed into her world view. Her concept of Canada is that it is only good for low cost prescription drugs.<br>
After I put my teeth back into my mouth, she did avow as to how she'd check out the website of McGill but expressed reservations about being an American in Canada. I pointed out that it was not THAT far from the US, perhaps 60 miles to the border of Vermont, which cheered her some. That Quebec was a French speaking province failed to delight or interest her.
This was all illuminating to me because I have never discussed her perceptions of Canada with her and had no idea that she was recalcitrant about our neighbors to the North -- I thought everybody liked Canada! Who would not like Canada? Okay, whatever.</p>

<p>Second: Struck out with an ED app to an uber-competitive in-state public Ivy, the denial came in the mail; but just received an acceptance to another in-state college that she liked when she toured it. It has a new Rec Center with climbing wall; dorms with a volleyball court outside; and a Greek system. It is almost the halfway mark of senior year and she is happy with this acceptance. It seems to me that cutting our losses and going with this sure thing is a good decision; one could spend a lot of money in application fees and not do as well. A bird in the hand and all that. It offers a slew of academic majors, is affordable, close to home (about an hour southwest of us), and she can take her car on campus as a freshman.
Is it ideal? I cannot answer that right now. Many of you have opined that she is college material and I took your advice to heart, and realize that although there are many fine vocational programs available, the chance to read some books, write some papers, perform a lab experiment or two, and live in a community with one's peers is part of growing up. It has inherent value. Even if she never uses her education in a vocation or occupation, it will not really be wasted. You have all assured me that my average student is not average but normal. For now, our quest is over and she has a place to register come next Fall.</p>

198

<p>OP-
Can you kindly clarify the points of confusion for those of us who are perplexed by what looks like inconsistency? That would really help. Do you have one child or 2? Do you have a son and a daughter? Are they both HS seniors or is one already in college? If you have a son and dau, is your son a "superstar" compared to your daughter?? Thanks for clarifying.</p>

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<p>Congratulations to you and your daughter, LC. Getting accepted this early in the process to a school she felt comfortable in should take the pressure off of both of you.</p>

200

<p>MiamiDAP:

[quote]
I told my D when she was 5 years old that there is no reason not to have all "A"s in school, all she needs to do is to complete her homework every night.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Hmmm... Did you also tell her that there's no reason not to have all 800's for her SAT's? ;)</p>

<p>On more serious note: I never liked a situation when the schoolwork was too easy. If one of my kids was getting A's in all subjects, that was a red flag for me that it's quite possible he is not learning much in this school. When a kid is truly, seriously challenged, there's always a chance he'd get a couple of B's or C's even when he is putting all his strength into his work, and I am perfectly OK with those B's and C's. When there's no risk-taking, there's no fun.</p>