<p>LindaC had said: "let me just say that I am articulating what many would never say and many will never see and while it may come across as harsh, I am very concerned about helping D find some sort of meaningful place in the world, a world that, at the moment, is calling loudly for kids with 2300 SATs; kids that are Varsity swimmers; kids who are starting businesses and grossing 20000K a month; kids who are completing an AA degree at the same time they graduate high school; kids whose family incomes are a thousand times that ours is; kids who for some reason are great in Math or great at debate or great at Chinese."</p>
<p>But see, I look all around me - and I'm one of those vaunted top 20 U grads! - and I don't see the world "calling" for that at all. If your goal is simply middle to upper middle class respectable lives, you don't have to have been the academic superstar or attended the top U's to get there. I guarantee that if I took the educational achievements of the people in my solidly upper middle class neighborhood, you'd have a handful who went to elite schools, most went to a state flagship and many, many would have gone to directional schools or "no-name" schools. Because it's what you do with it all that matters. And kindness, ability to get along with people and work ethic really win at the end of the day, not the name on your diploma. Honestly, I loved, loved, LOVED my school and bleed purple and white, but at the end of the day it helped me get my first job and then from there it was <em>me</em> that made the difference.</p>
<p>Linda,
Your daughter will be fine! My son was a quiet B/C student with similiar SATs. His ECs were anime club (where he and his friends watched Japanese cartoons) and German club (where he and his friends sat around and ate cookies). His essay topic was about eating at Vietnamese noodle restaurants. He spent his free time reading computer gaming magazines and Mad magazine and playing computer games, as much as we would allow.</p>
<p>He got into six out the seven schools he applied to and even got some scholarship money! He is attending a state university that many parents in our area regard as a loser school. But, here's the thing! He has made the Dean's list for the last two semesters with a 4.0 GPA because he found something that really excited him. His professors love him because he is a steady kid who always does the assignments and participates in class. He visits them during office hours to talk about career development and they are happy to advise him. The professors at this school are delirious with joy that a student really cares about the material. And they are all recommending him for a prestigious internship this summer! </p>
<p>So, have faith in your daughter. She sounds like a wonderful child who has dealt with tough circumstances (loss of her father). She will find the right path through school and do well.</p>
<p>I applaud goaliedad's thoughtful analysis and advice. And as NSM points out, empathy and compassion are a lot more productive than insults and judgement.</p>
<p>I'm guessing that all parents on this board would do well to follow Pizzagirl's lead in supporting their students' achievements. I know how easy it is to fall into the trap of assuming that one's child is gifted, talented and extraordinary. It only takes one teacher early in the process (eg kindergarten) to tell you that your child is a genius and suddenly all future achievements are viewed within that context. Of course, as they grow up and develop their own interests and talents, the reality ends up being far from that extraordinary end of the spectrum.</p>
<p>This thread has taught me to be more encouraging and less judgmental of my own kids' efforts and accomplishments. Both sons are healthy and happy, with friends and interesting hobbies and that's an achievement in itself. This thread has also taught me to be more tolerant and empathetic, because I surely do not want to fall into the nastiness that sometimes snowballs on anonymous message boards.</p>
<p>My stand has always been that ALL kids / people are about the same intelligence / talents and so forth. What makes some more successful than others is the hard work. I told my D when she was 5 years old that there is no reason not to have all "A"s in school, all she needs to do is to complete her homework every night. Worked like a charm all thru second year in college so far. I hope it will continue working for her.</p>
<p>Interesting, MiamiDAP. I have a different perspective. I think different people do have different capabilities. I have always been happy if my kids did "the best they can." I don't care if they get an A, a B, or a C, as long as they did the best they can.</p>
<p>"<br>
My stand has always been that ALL kids / people are about the same intelligence / talents and so forth. What makes some more successful than others is the hard work."</p>
<p>I believe that people do have different capabilities and talents. There has been research indicating that hard work pays off the most when one is doing things that one is inherently talented in. If you, for instance, give training to someone who's excellent at a skill, and to someone who's not that good at a skill, the person who'll improve the most is the one who's excellent at the skill.</p>
<p>Take a look at books by the late Donald Clifton, an industrial organizational psychologist whose area of research was people's strengths and matching the right people to jobs. "Soar with your strengths" is a book I recommend highly. The gist is -- play to your strengths, manage your weaknesses. People will do best in fields and endeavors that match their natural talents. Often you can identify people's natural talents by what they enjoy the most. Typically people enjoy most the things that they are naturally talented in.</p>
<p>"I told my D when she was 5 years old that there is no reason not to have all "A"s in school, all she needs to do is to complete her homework every night."</p>
<p>It would work if the class's expectations match their abilities. I did my homework every night in graduate statistics, even redid every problem a couple of times trying to get the right answer. I still struggled to get a "C". </p>
<p>Particularly with older S, there were classes that he could ace without doing homework at all. Those were classes that he found to be very easy (even if the material was challenging for many), and that the teacher would give students "As" if the students aced the exams even if the students didn't do homework.</p>
<p>Have you ever been around developmentally disabled people? Do you think they really could get all As, and even go to college, if they just did their homework?</p>
<p>Another mom of a college freshman was telling the story of her daughter. The daughter did great in high school through hard work. She spend every morning before classes, break, lunch, and after school getting help from her teachers. She turned in all her homework and any extra credit available and it really paid off. She earned her way into one of the top schools. So, first semester at the top school she takes what she is hoping is her last math class, as math is not her major, and she has always had to work hard at it. She is industrious in the class, and even her classmates come to her with help as she takes such wonderful notes. First midterm comes in, and she is shocked to see she not only didn't get a perfect score, she didn't even pass. This really kicks her into high gear, and she goes to the professor and sets up tutoring sessions. He happily helps her through the rest of the semester, even yelling out little quiz questions when he runs into her on campus. She studies harder than she ever had in her life for that final, and hurrah!!! He tells her she passed. She didn't let it just lie there, she had to find out by how much, as she is sure she nailed that test. Turns out she got a C on the final, passed the class by a few points. She calls to tell her mother this story, and basically echos MiamiDAP's theory, she thought the difference in grades were just how hard you worked. Now she must admit that some people really are just better at a particular subject or skill than others. </p>
<p>I believe being smart is one of those talents you are born with. What you do with it is up to you. Just as in sports, or music, hard work can overcome lack of talent to a point.</p>
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My stand has always been that ALL kids / people are about the same intelligence / talents and so forth.
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<p>You're standing on very soft ground. It's ludicrous to claim that "ALL kids / people are about the same intelligence / talents," because it just isn't so.</p>
<p>Can everyone learn and progress? Does hard work and great teaching help? Absolutely. But there is no doubt at all in my mind that people have very different cognitive attributes. </p>
<p>I see it especially in languages and mathematics. I find it fascinating in fact how some can absorb a new language or acquire advanced mathematics like drinking water while others struggle to string two foreign words together (me!). </p>
<p>I see it in the students I teach. Really really dedicated hard working students who struggle over and over again- no matter how many one-on-one tutorials to get something that others in the class found obvious. Or the party dudes who waltz into my midterm after a night of drinking, finish the exam early and get 90%. I have small upper level courses so I'm fortunate enough to know a lot of my students very well. They do not at all learn the same way- some have to work hard, some not at all. Or I see it with my D's friends: some have several tutors a week and still struggle in a core course; others never crack a book it seems and make honor roll. Where I really notice it most is in advanced college mathematics. Many students hit a plateau and the A seems no longer achievable.</p>
<p>"The more that people here can respond with empathy and compassion, the greater would be the chance that the mother will listen to us, change her perspective of her D, and get the help that she needs"</p>
<p>(can someone teach me how to make real quotes?)</p>
<p>NSM, and GoalieDad, you are right of course. Much more mature response than mine. See, this is why I could never be a therapist :) </p>
<p>I DO think she's depressed and needs help. I had empathy at the outset for the OP, as it clearly seemed she was depressed: I think my frustration grew when it seemed like people in CC were treated this like its reasonable (hence, my posts are more intended for a sub group of posters than the OP herself).</p>
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Or the party dudes who waltz into my midterm after a night of drinking, finish the exam early and get 90%. I have small upper level courses so I'm fortunate enough to know a lot of my students very well. They do not at all learn the same way- some have to work hard, some not at all.
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<p>This is what frustrates my own kids. Interestingly, the one who is most frustrated by the kiddo who does not need to work much for an A, works less for his grades than my other child who works much harder for his grades. My sons are also jealous of people who can get by on a extremely little sleep, and feels fine.</p>
<p>People have different intellectual capabilities.</p>
<p>Well, I did not mean to include disabled, I was talking about average healthy people. Any sickness will result in not being able to do your best. I have seen that some subjects reguired much more work from my D than others, so I totally agree that we have different set of capabilities. However, what sets D. apart from lots of others is willingness to put huge effort into something that seems to be totally foreign to her brain, that she is completely not interested. This skill is invalueable at any job, since we all have some tasks in our job duties that we prefer not to do and still have to put our best efforts to complete. One more point in regard to homework, it is a very good practice to complete it correctly on your own BEFORE seeking help. But we always offered help to D and she used it mostly for her worst - History, hours and hours of help. Cannot help any more, but she does not need to take History in college, sigh of relief.... - she got "5" on AP History literally by "sit of pants" humongous effort.</p>
<p>Miami- you can't be serious! Have you ever had a conversation with someone who is, shall we say, less than stimulating? People are NOT the same with respect to natural intelligence and ability. I think you are judging the world by what it takes to get an A in something! There's more to life than the classroom.</p>
<p>"I have always been happy if my kids did "the best they can." I don't care if they get an A, a B, or a C, as long as they did the best they can."</p>
<p>Totally agree. And now that they are sophs, I have pretty much stepped out of it. I deliberately don't have the password to check their grades online. Dd was checking her grades today and I asked her if I could look and told her that she could say no and that was fine; she let me look, except she requested I not look at one class which isn't her strongest :-). That's ok; we laughed and I looked away. I know that "bad" to her is probably a B-. But she's working hard and taking it seriously and that's all I can ask. I <em>could</em> come down on her, make her review her homework and writing and essays with me -- but the days of me "making" her do those things are gone, and rightly so. I think that even though in my heart, I sure as heck would love to be trading stories of "so, what do you think, Harvard, Yale or Princeton?" it's not going to happen ... and true intelligence in life is dealing with that as it is and knowing that it's not the end of the world. Dd has had some health issues and frankly health is most important of all.</p>
<p>MiamiDAP offers another interesting point that I think we parents can overlook. Our kids don't just have different aptitudes or intellectual strengths, but also different traits! </p>
<p>Some people can push themselves through and over any obstacle, whether its due to a persistent personality, perfectionism, competitive spirit, fear, thrill of achievement, sheer willpower or something else. Others clearly don't have that level of self-discipline. I see myself in the latter category and I so admire those in the other. Even though I have a PhD and had been very successful through school, it's because I learned early on I had to focus on what I loved and was good at (since self-discipline alone was not going to cut it!). If you'd put me on a path of coursework I found tedious or mentally painful or too difficult, forget it. </p>
<p>Maybe my D is the same way. I too care about her efforts and not outcome per se. But maybe 'doing her best' should not be judged by how much effort I think she puts in. For her, 'doing her best' may be much much effort she put in relative to her existing level of self-discipline. </p>
<p>I don't think I usually appreciate that as much as I should. She wants to get say 90% or finish something by Wed, but just can't concentrate anymore or bring herself to do just one more page, or one more edit...just like I say want to lose 10 lbs or get enough sleep, but just couldn't resist that piece of cake or surfing CC at 11pm...</p>
<p>Our kids are all quite amazing individuals. They have strengths and weaknesses that humble and awe me. My S has the singular focus required to be able to study and focus to study & absorb complicated math and physics problems & concepts in doctor's waiting rooms. My D has the ability to soothe and understand the emotions of people when they are at loggerheads with each other and her. Both of them recognize and admire the strengths of the other (which exceed their parents' abilities).</p>
<p>I agree that all humans have amazing abilities which vary from in utero and continue to vary throughout the rest of our lifetimes. These abilities are affected by so many things--our environments, genetics, role models exposure, and so much more. Various fields have study including psychology, sociology, anthropology and more have been debating which of these factors have which effect on abilities and last I hard the disagreements continue.</p>
<p>I feel our kids are best served by us encouraging each of them (and ourselves) to be and do their/our "best," whatever it is without pushing beyond that (which becomes counterproductive anyway). Figuring out that balance for each individual is a fine art--some days we're much better at it than others & the balance will shift over time.</p>
<p>Since CC is an international forum, I think a lot of discussions are very general. Many a times, I think, some discussions are taken outside of the context. </p>
<p>For example, the average of SAT or whatever test. How many of the test takers were really trying to get into a 4 year college? Why do people think the CC kids are not the norm? This is, afterall, the place for those who really want to go to a 4 year college. I think the GPA and test scores on CC are a very good representation of those with a common goal. </p>
<p>I remember the days when I took the test for college. That was in 1977, the very first one since the culture revolution. Out of about 80 kids from the families in our apartment complex, only one kid failed to gain admission to a university. That year, I think the admission rate in the whole China was less than 1%. While majority of the student did not get into a university and this kid could have been the top 5% of his class, he was considered below average within that complex. His father, a college professor, was openly challenged in the classroom. The students did not want him to teach because he could not teach his own kid into a university. </p>
<p>It is also the same for a 120K/y income family. They may be o.k. in comparison with the whole world. However, if they happen to live in a town where the medium household income is 200K/y, they will be in the bottom 25%. In other words, 3 out of 4 people they meet daily are doing better financially than them. So, any discussion outside the contest are really not that meaningful.</p>
<p>Of course, no one should use the language OP used on any one, let alone their own kids. Other than that, I totally understand OP's situation.</p>
<p>Agree with the most recent posts on this topic. Each child is different from the other and have their own strenghs and weaknesses. As hard as it is, parents should try to avoid having preconceived ideas/expectations and just go with the flow...especially if there are siblings involved.</p>
<p>We have 3 daughters...all different. D1 just started grad school and D2 is in her 1st yr at CMU. Even when they were young, parents assumed that all 3 would attend the same secondary school...wrong! D3 has a learning issue that is not readily noticeable and received some educational therapy. Yes, it takes her longer to complete writing assignments...and her standardized scores may only be "average"...but her self-esteem is fully intact. And, that we are so thankful for and want to maintain. No, she will probably not go down the same path as her siblings...but, she will definitely attend college...and, hopefully, one that is "right" for her...and she will love.</p>
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Why do people think the CC kids are not the norm? This is, afterall, the place for those who really want to go to a 4 year college
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<p>No, the kids on this discussion group are geared to the Ivy Leagues and top 20 colleges. Most kids in this country are happy (and their parents are proud) if they get into their flagship state U.</p>
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It is also the same for a 120K/y income family. They may be o.k. in comparison with the whole world. However, if they happen to live in a town where the medium household income is 200K/y, they will be in the bottom 25%. In other words, 3 out of 4 people they meet daily are doing better financially than them. So, any discussion outside the contest are really not that meaningful
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<p>You decide where you want to live. A person who lives on the upper west side of Manhattan and earns $750,000/ year will find themselves surrounded by others making many multiples of that. Should they feel like a failure because of this?</p>