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<blockquote> <p>Nor is she likely to do anything that's going to really change the world<<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>I think the most important work she'll do will be inside the 4 walls of her own home, no matter what she may or may not end up doing outside the home to change the world.</p>
<p>After all, Gandhi and Hitler had mothers...</p>
<p>I love "A=Average;B=Bad;C=Catastrophe;D=Disowned;F=Forever Forgotten".</p>
<p>I tend to think this way.</p>
<p>Oh, to be able to bring back the Asian kids talking about their Asian parents thread from about 5 years ago!</p>
<p>"Bartleby, your analogy that IQ equals earning potential is slightly tenuous. Sometimes extremely intelligent people can be socially dysfunctional which can negatively impact their growth in the business world. Sometimes extremely intelligent people gravitate to the educational field because of the comfort level; a field that is notoriously underpaid. I think it's difficult to equate above average intelligent vs. great intelligence to above average earning potential vs. great earnings potential. Once these kids hit the streets post-college the field levels and it's really anyone's game again."</p>
<p>No, it doesn't. Studies are clear on the strong correlation between IQ and income. Are there people of average intelligence who are fabulously wealthy? Sure. Are there brilliant people who are dirt poor (for reasons like lack of will, social incapacity, choice to work in fields which are not financially rewarding)? Sure. But these people are what statisticians call 'outliers.'</p>
<p>"Not every cancer researcher is a genius."</p>
<p>Um, no. It's impossible to get a job as a cancer researcher without having a very high IQ for the reason that the kind of work that is done by cancer researchers requires an enormous amount of brain power. </p>
<p>"I find it hard to believe that Bartleby really believes that "average" students end up in cubicles. Some of them end up changing the world... even without a Nobel prize."</p>
<p>Sure, some do. Note that I said it is <em>unlikely</em> that they will. Particularly this girl who, at least according to her mother, has no passionate interests outside of video games. Nothing wrong with that. </p>
<p>"Bartleby, countless extremely successful individuals were mediocre students, take Ansel Adams for example. So to predict what a human being might become based on school success up to and including high school is bogus. As for what parents dream for their children, I'm surprised that an individual can know what the majority do or don't dream."</p>
<p>And many, many more weren't. In fact, most successful students, and most highly intelligent people are also forgotten soon after they expire. Just a lesser proportion of them.</p>
<p>"I'd agree w/blossom that this is a very short-sighted view about who changes the world (and how) and, additionally, applies an undue emphasis on high school performance as an indicator of 1) intelligence 2) earning power 3) future career prospects.</p>
<p>I know people who are not very learned in the traditional sense (e.g. don't have histories of high, educational performance). However, they (in several instances) have near-genius (I think) levels of emotional intelligence, plus determination -- they are out-earning people with multiple, advanced degrees and they are in high-level management positions."</p>
<p>Yes, that certainly happens. Sometimes it happens because of luck or random chance. Most of the time this happens it's because of something else, as you yourself suggest--determination, charisma, passion in such a profuse quantity that it outweighs middling intelligence (intelligence, by the way, is different from educational level, since you don't seem clear on that point.) The point is that the girl who is the subject of this thread doesn't seem to have any of these traits in unusual amounts, according to her mother.</p>
<p>" intelligence, by the way, is different from educational level, since you don't seem clear on that point"</p>
<p>Well, I don't seem to recall a section of the OPs postings that indicated her daughter had taken one of the IQ tests to which you refer. Merely that she had 3 APs and didn't seem necessarily passionate nor hard-working. So her 'raw intelligence' is an unknown quantity.</p>
<p>The fact is, I've known several people (one, an uncle with an IQ tested at over 160) who did not thrive in the business/professional world at all because of other, personal factors. You can say that is anecdotal, but the studies you mention re: the corrolation between IQ & income would have to be evaluated in reference to this particular girl. Maybe people w/an IQ of 80 earn less than those with an IQ of 130. But what about between 110 and 130? </p>
<p>Moreover, the point is that to predict a mediocre outcome for a 16-18 year old's life is quite premature, in addition to being unhelpful.</p>
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<p>I love "A=Average;B=Bad;C=Catastrophe;D=Disowned;F=Forever Forgotten".<</p>
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<p>Not so silly as it looks, actually. A UK based qualifications review in 2007 or thereabouts showed wide differences between UK GCSE standards for Maths and Sciences versus Hong Kong Education equivalent levels. A UK 'A' result was equivalent to a Hong Kong 'C'.</p>
<p>Believe it or not! But it explains why so many local HK kids need extra tutoring. It really is tough on the guys n gals. Turns out bright academics, but generally lacking in creativity. ('scuse the generalizations).</p>
<p>Richard
Hong Kong</p>
<p>Bartleby:
"Studies are clear on the strong correlation between IQ and income. Are there people of average intelligence who are fabulously wealthy? Sure. Are there brilliant people who are dirt poor (for reasons like lack of will, social incapacity, choice to work in fields which are not financially rewarding)? Sure. But these people are what statisticians call 'outliers.'"</p>
<p>Where are these studies of which you speak? Who conducted them, and why is the potential connection between money and intelligence of any interest whatsoever? Do you believe that money=success -or- money=happiness -or- money=(worth as a person) -or- money=(value of contribution to society)? Or maybe you believe that income=intelligence , which is insulting to teachers, at-home moms, and numerous other high IQ individuals who don't equate money to anything other than the items and services it buys.</p>
<p>
Oh, to be able to bring back the Asian kids talking about their Asian parents thread from about 5 years ago!
</p>
<p>After 1 week of college and living at home, I left. My parents thought I would never amount to anything. Eventually I got my degrees, and they were finally relieved.</p>
<p>When I read the initial post and then all the responses, I guess I saw it differently. Everywhere we go, we run into parents telling us how amazingly awesome their children are; one would think they are all going to be superstars. The competition is intense - beyond intense - when you couple that with the parents living through their children.</p>
<p>I am in a similar place. I worry greatly for my dd because she doesn't seem to be finding her niche or hitting her stride in her sophomore year in hs. I am worried that she will not be able to get into any university because of the current trends in the economy. We sent her to a large high school for diverse opportunities - and we are finding no opps for her. I realize the importance of extracurricular activities. She has applied to 7 clubs and not been accepted into one. She was the only returning player not asked to return on a sports team. She didn't make the drama play. Do I continue? How many times does a kid fail before they find their niche outside the academics? We are thinking of having her switch schools after this year - maybe she needs to start over.</p>
<p>Do I know what I am talking about? Yes. I have a freshman at the UF and I know what it took for him to get in. I also know that he'll succeed because he is comfortable in his own skin. </p>
<p>Perhaps the only activities for her right now are outside of school so I will start exploring opps with her - or make suggestions. It will be difficult but since we have determined that her high school - and yes, I have talked with guidance counselors - and it has not helped. She makes good grades and takes AP courses - but that is not enough. She will have her license in 6 mos so that will enable her to find other activities, jobs outside of school. </p>
<p>I do not consider her a loser by any means. I am concerned that she won't find her stride. I find parents who are willing to say their children are average these days seem to be in the minority...</p>
<p>GMOSUGrad--my son absolutely and adamantly refused to do HS extracurriulars (after being in a bunch of academic clubs in middle school, winning academic awards & science fairs, etc.). I tried everything.</p>
<p>As it turned out, he developed some outside interests (a musical instrument he liked, some public service he selected [not me], started 2 of his own businesses).</p>
<p>When it came time to apply to college, there were the slots for HS ECs. But, there was also room on each application to put in interests outside of HS. I was so worried he wouldn't do well in college apps because of his refusal to do HS stuff. But, it worked out -- he's gotten in to 6 schools so far (some are pretty good!). So...I'd say to give your daughter time and also, as you mentioned, consider things that are outside school.</p>
<p>I think this can also be good because it gives the kids connects w/people outside the same HS group of students.</p>
<p>Re: the IQ vs. earning potential question. </p>
<p>Malcolm Gladwell's book "Outliers - The Story of Success", points out that there's been a lot of research done that tries to sort out how a person's official IQ test "translates" into real-life success. His review of the research suggests that there's a correlation between success and IQ, but only up to a certain point. Gladwell concludes that once a person reaches an IQ of around 120, having extra IQ points "doesn't seem to translate into any measurable real-world advantage".</p>
<p>Based on statistics, 68% of the population falls in the "Average" range. That means that whether they be teachers, employers, politicians, etc etc-- chances are almost 7 ot of 10 of them will be "average". Its often frustrating to the bright and really bright people when they are smarter than their bosses, teachers, etc, but it is not uncommon. In fact, just the opposite, based on these stats.</p>
<p>GMOSUGrad, neither of my kids do a lot of afterschool ECs. Older son did Sci Olympiad and Academic Team, younger son does Sci. Oly. and just this year joined the literary magazine. Outside of school younger son has started making and selling jewelry this year. Older son did a lot with computer programming. But I have to say, I am shocked that you have to be apply to clubs. Clubs in our school take everybody. For some of the team things, you might end up being an alternate if the numbers don't work out, but you are still welcome.</p>
<p>I can't bear to read through this thread. OP, you need a reality check. 1830 SAT=85th %ile. What is "merely average" about scoring better than 85% of the college bound students who took this test? Average in whose eyes? I hope that in choosing to skip the posts between the first post and this post, I missed the part where you say that you are being sarcastic.</p>
<p>If not, I am sorry for your kid.</p>
<p>GMOSUGrad -- Me too! I don't think some of the people responding to this thread are getting the point. It isn't about not loving or supporting our "average" kids! We know our loved children are special people. We are, however, also smart enough to understand the bell curve and that most kids actually ARE average. </p>
<p>Some of the parents or kids who assert that their kids are above average in high school or even in college are eventually going to find their "special" kids working in cubes, managing retail stores, or doing other "average" jobs right next to the "average" kids. </p>
<p>The question of "special" or "average" is actually irrelevant. Whether our kids are mailmen, teachers, doctors or lawyers, the true test of success is not what college someone graduates from or how much money they make, but whether they are happy, self-supporting and emotionally healthy. </p>
<p>A Harvard grad just got laid off at my company - an Ivy degree obviously wasn't a magic guarantee of success. There are plenty of doctors sweating out insurance reimbursements, medical malpractice claims and substance abuse issues. There are plenty of lawyers with marital problems working miserable 60 hour weeks. There are plenty of people at every end of the economic spectrum with financial problems. </p>
<p>I'd say the parents who need a reality check are NOT the ones who acknowlege their kids aren't extraordinary and who ponder how their kids will fit into a competitive society -- but the ones who magically believe that their successful high school or college students are going to be assured success through the rest of their lives. </p>
<p>We all hope and pray that's true, but high school is ultimately....just high school.</p>
<p>GMOSUGRAD, seriously? You seem to be intimating that your child is a loser. She is obviously an intelligent young woman who simply does not "fit" in high school. Hmmm ... sounds like me at that age. If you met me now, you would never know that I was once so shy that I hid in closets when people I didn't know came over ... or that I felt like such a dork in high school ... or that I was never considered for NHS (even though I had stellar grades & test scores) ... etc. ... etc. I have led a very full and happy life in spite of my "loser" status in high school. </p>
<p>Yeah, yeah ... it's so much more competitive now. Right. It's only competitive because we THINK it's so competitive. You kid WILL get into a college. Maybe not the one YOU think she <em>should</em> get into, but certainly she will get into a college. I doubt that she will be marked for life because she hasn't "hit her stride" her sophomore year in high school. If you let her know that you think this is the case, though, she just may have some self esteem problems as a result.</p>
<p>Happy, healthy, well-adjusted, and self-supporting. If those adjectives describe our children when they reach adulthood, then they ARE successful. We don't need to question their worth just because they aren't <em>above average.</em> (And I will point out again that 85th %'ile IS above average by definition)</p>
<p>Kelsmom, people aren't offended by the description of a child as average as much as by the OP's statement: "Does anyone else have a child who turned out sort of dumb?" and the suggestions by some posters that being considered average in high school limits your entire future.</p>
<p>Here's a quote from one of my favorite songs, "Brooklyn Roads"</p>
<p>"As I'd sit there softly crying,
teacher'd say he's just not trying
Got a good head if he'd apply it,
but you know yourself,
he's always somewhere else."</p>
<p>That song was written by Neil Diamond- a hugely successful entertainer and songwriter. I think it's somewhat autobiographical. </p>
<p>Teenagers are so young - they're not finished yet. They have their whole lives to grow and develop as people. </p>
<p>So... don't listen to your friends and don't listen to people who brag about their kids. Listen to your heart. Listen to your daughter. She's well above average and seems to be finding her niche. </p>
<p>Remember- some of those super achievers burn out in college.<br>
In our extended family, the solid B students with the lower SAT scores seem to be doing better - they have plugged away, they each have a plan and have followed their interests in a steady, hard-working way. </p>
<p>The A students with the whiz-kid SAT's have struggled a little bit more. I'm not sure why; they worked equally hard, but don't seem to know what they want. </p>
<p>My Dad likes to say, "The game isn't over yet."</p>
<p>bartleby, I believe is his/her name, has succinctly grasped the essence of my initial message:</p>
<p>"Yes, that certainly happens. Sometimes it happens because of luck or random chance. Most of the time this happens it's because of something else, as you yourself suggest--determination, charisma, passion in such a profuse quantity that it outweighs middling intelligence (intelligence, by the way, is different from educational level, since you don't seem clear on that point.) The point is that the girl who is the subject of this thread doesn't seem to have any of these traits in unusual amounts, according to her mother."</p>
<p>She really does not have any unusual or outstanding traits, talents, or passions, as far as I can tell, other than being a really nice girl. And I do not discount that, but on one's college application, the question "Are you a nice person?" is not asked, and I do not know if "nice" is valued in our society.</p>
<p>ssonnsecty: I won't dignify your nastiness with a response past this sentence.</p>
<p>And to GMO...whatever your exact initials are, I am not sure, but I relate to your messages and wish I had some concrete suggestions. It does sound as though your D's school is not exactly inclusive on the clubs score. I will say that an activity away from school might be refreshing. My D did not last long when she took our dog, who had been trained as a therapy dog, to a local nursing home -- to visit the patients and take the dog to their rooms -- because, unfortunately, they required a TB test and for some odd reason, her reaction was a false positive (for which she still had to take medication) and, long story short, she was not able to go to the nursing home since she did not have a TB test result they liked...but my point is...this would have been a good EC, and she did enjoy it for the short period of time she was able to pursue it. All you need is a well behaved dog and a TB test. </p>
<p>I believe that your D -- and you -- just need to remain vigilant and find an opportunity or two to explore an activity or interest, so she does have some experience and some stuff to write down on the application. Community theatre, church choir -- that kind of thing. </p>
<p>My D was accepted to more than one college and rejected by two and is very happy with the one she plans to attend. She is not an academic superstar. But she will find her way and will contribute to society in a way that will be positive. I have never had her IQ tested, and have never felt the need. We need cancer researchers, yes, and we need nice people. My D is the latter. Your girl is someone else or somebody else, and your concern is justified because the college application process can be ruthless.</p>
<p>Oh yeah...</p>
<p>I am totally convinced that a lot of kids just plain cheat and that explains not only their super high GPAs but also their high test scores.</p>