<p>OP, my kids are merely average too. In fact, they are below average for what they have been given in terms of opportunity, native intelligence, and talents. It does hurt at times, when I think how much more they could be if only.... Then I have to think how average I am too as a stay at home mom with average kids!</p>
<p>If you google "dorms like palaces" maybe you'll find some schools that meet your standards.</p>
<p>P.S. Your child is well above average. Really.</p>
<p>OP, You are normal and I understand you 100%. You love your child so much that you want the best for her. At the same time, all you see are those kids who score 2380 on SAT and 17 AP classes with a weighted GPA of 5.97. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, not everyone could have all perfect kids. </p>
<p>On CC, many will jump on you when you use the word "average". Even so that includes about 50% of the test takers who were forced to take the test w/o any intention to attend a 4 year college or those 7 grades who took SAT for whatever reason. </p>
<p>Go on to read some other threads, you will find some of these same people who ask what to do to help their 2000 SAT kid to get another 200 points.</p>
<p>"There is something wrong here. And it is not with the daughter. The OP needs help. Pretending this is really a thread about a suitable trade school or college is enabling the OP to continue to focus on the child as the problem is not helpful."</p>
<p>Agree sort of. In my first post, I too suggested she suffers from depression and is way off base in how she's treating her daughter. In my second, I tried to emphasize what really matters, which is happy, healthy kids. Like so many others.</p>
<p>Given the OP seems completely unable to take any of our philosophical or psychological advice, and what the OP needs here is far deeper than a message board, and will only be resolved over the longhaul, not tomorrow..... I'm taking the pragmatic route. </p>
<p>I felt very sad for D when I've read her mom's posts. And while I can't help D feel good about herself at this point nor can I make her mom be a different mom to her, I can offer suggestions about great schools for this great daughter. </p>
<p>Besides, maybe being 'out of country' is a good thing for this relationship. Seriously.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Given the OP seems completely unable to take any of our philosophical or psychological advice,
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</p>
<p>Anyone who could type a line could give "advices". Who says the advices are right ones and OP must take them?</p>
<p>I do think this thread is more about finding a solution to what OP's D should do next, within the context of a budget. Otherwise, why would a mother who sincerely thinks her child is a loser, and dumb get excited about their child attending McGill! I believe the OP was mostly thinking aloud about encouraging a vocational program and trying to justify this to herself. BTW, I do not think there is anything wrong with a vocational program for the student who wants one.</p>
<p>Well when all the advice says the same thing, that might be a hint that the advice is correct.</p>
<p>
[quote]
OP, You are normal and I understand you 100%. You love your child so much that you want the best for her. At the same time, all you see are those kids who score 2380 on SAT and 17 AP classes with a weighted GPA of 5.97.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, not everyone could have all perfect kids.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Oh, good grief.</p>
<p>Near-perfect SAT scores, or 17 APs, or a 5.whatever GPA does NOT make a kid perfect. Those kids are high scholastic achievers, but they are NOT perfect.</p>
<p>A kid who scores in the 83%ile on the SAT is NOT average. A kid who takes 3 APs and does well in them is not average.</p>
<p>The OP's daughter is not average.</p>
<p>And kids with 2400 SATs and 5.0 GPAs are not perfect.</p>
<p>"You love your child so much that you want the best for her. At the same time, all you see are those kids who score 2380 on SAT and 17 AP classes with a weighted GPA of 5.97.....Unfortunately, not everyone could have all perfect kids"</p>
<p>Best for your child? More like b est for you, having a trophy child, live through your kid. What about giving your child self-esteem, and unconditional love? What about them not feeling like failures because they were not perfect in school and music for you? What about having a great relationship with them rather than an abusive, toxic family life due to your own insecurities that will leave scars for life? </p>
<p>No child is more or less perfect. Unless of course you operate with such a narrow, empty, petty view of the world that judges humans only by how well they can superscore on multiple-choice standardized tests sold by the College board. </p>
<p>If I had to choose between two fates for my child, I would, hands down, choose to have a loving, happy child with great character and an interesting, balanced and varied life that was self-chosen, than a perfect SAT scorer stressed about getting only a 4 on an AP exam. This isn't rationalizing post-hoc: I'm parenting with that intent. </p>
<p>Don't get me wrong. We highly value education in our house (we are both professors, both taught at an Ivy together for numerous years). All of us value reading novels, debating the news, travelling the world, doing activities just for the fun of it, having great dinner parties with interesting people and teaching ourselves new things. Our kids are bright, confident, and do some weird things, and are turning into interesting people. They'll make their way in the world. Sure they do well enough in school so they will have various options open but who cares about a particular score or rank school? People have been SUCKED IN by what is sadly, mostly marketing hype melded with parental insecurity; it's so sad how insane its driven some parents and families.</p>
<p>I'm still having difficulty with the OP's use of language:</p>
<p>"merely average", "Laughable 1830", "Bit of a loser", "sort of dumb", "nothing really distinctive to offer a college", "no special talent, no special expertise. It is almost laughable." "performance is comparatively abysmal"</p>
<p>Many posters have noted this kid is probably not "average". But...even if we agree that, by CC and high performance HS standards this child might be "average" -- why such language? When did "average" become "dumb" or "a loser?" </p>
<p>The OP may also be relieved to know that most admissions counselors will be thrilled to read an essay that is "not brilliant but truly represented who she is." </p>
<p>I can acknowledge at least one positive result of the original post and the comments on this thread -- I will seriously consider all of the language I use when describing my academically average child. We have not invested quite as much as the OP in special experiences, lessons, etc -- so maybe my expectations of how this child would "turn out" are not as high as the OP's. My child also has the unfortunate situation of being in a generally high performing suburban HS and following a superstar sibling....but we will be ecstatic if this child qualifies to take an AP course or two, if test scores average over 600 and GPA is anywhere near a B.</p>
<p>I'm currently reading a book called "Mindset" by Carol Dweck. Would be a good read for the OP.</p>
<p>I was originally directed to this board because my only child was off to college in August and I was experiencing sadness, depression and a large sense of loss. I googled empty nest syndrome and found this site.<br>
At first the site was great for me because I found others going through what I was dealing with and it really helped. As time went on however I came to see that most of the people on this board were parents of high achievers or parents striving to make their kids high achievers.
My son's grades are slightly above average. His ACT scores were in the same range. He is smarter than his grades show but he is not highly motivated in academics, at least not at this point in his life. But he is happy. He is going to a small school that he loves, he is playing the sports that he lives for, he is learning how to find his way in life, he is doing well although not outstanding in his classes, he is maturing, and most importantly he is very HAPPY.<br>
In my life I have worked with many over-achievers, both people who were that way on their own and people who at 30 years old were still striving to be that perfect success for their parents. I have seen people burn out, people commit suicide, people turn to alcohol and drugs and people just give up--all because of to much stress on their lives. Stress to be successful and achieve that notoriety. They have money, they have power, they have recognition--but they don;t have happiness.<br>
Me--I would rather be happy and I would rather my child be happy.
Let your children be who and what they are. Let them live their lives--they will figure it out. If they are not a 4.0 student--so what. If they don't take 8 AP classes -so what. If they are not in the top 10% of their class --so what. If they go to a "lesser' school--so what. Many of us went to "lesser' school and we are doing just fine.
What I am saying is encourage your kids to do their best--but if you don't have a self motivated kid--don't worry about it. They will figure it out--in their own way--in their own time--and they will be a better person for it. And so will you.</p>
<p>
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Unfortunately, not everyone could have all perfect kids.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Do you know how fundamentally exhausting it is to maintain that sort of "perfection"? Do you realize how many "perfect kids" burn out and end up incredibly unhappy?</p>
<p>The happiest of my former classmates, looking back eight years after my high school graduation, are what you all are calling the "average" ones. They didn't have perfect SAT scores, they lamented the fact that they didn't get into Stanford and Harvard and Yale at the time, but they went to colleges that they truly loved. Some of the Ivy grads (many are my best friends from high school) are happy, but way too many of them are exhausted, and seem to go through life a little confused. They're supposed to be phenomenally successful, and often, they <em>are</em> quite successful, but they are strangely unhappy because they're doing what they think they <em>ought</em> to be doing, rather than doing what they know will make them happy.</p>
<p>The "average" people, on the other hand, didn't feel limited to business, engineering, medicine, and law, and have found callings in really amazing fields that suit them perfectly. They didn't have to be role models for anybody, and in finding their own niches, suddenly, they ARE role models. They're beautiful people who have found the phenomenal success that proved to be so elusive for us manically-well-rounded workaholic grads of prestigious programs who can't quite understand why we're feeling unfulfilled.</p>
<p>Life is amazing. Going to a top university doesn't guarantee success. It certainly doesn't guarantee happiness. The paths to happiness are so arbitrary... Money doesn't get you there, academic success doesn't get you there. Having pride in something, having someone BE proud OF you... That's what does it. Harvard doesn't do that. Stanford doesn't do that.</p>
<p>I hope your daughter enjoys life, and that she doesn't feel the pressure to be "perfect"... Because "perfection" really isn't all it's cracked up to be. I wish people around here would understand that.</p>
<p>Nikkistar offers valuable pearls of wisdom, take them in.</p>
<p>As many other posters have stated, OP's words used for describing your daughter are sickening. I understand that this may be harsh to see, but (almost) every post on here is completely true. Let your daughter just live her life. Quite frankly, she is a very intelligent girl; her life will work itself out.</p>
<p>If my parents were to look at me in the same way that you are looking at your daughter, I would probably begin to cry. I have a decent academic record, I'm uncoordinated, I can't sing very well, and I can hardly even draw a stick figure. Hmm..sounds a little like your daughter, huh OP? Good thing I know better than to be effected by your statements. Unfortunately, your daughter might not feel the same when hearing the message from her own mother.</p>
<p>You may not realize it, but you just bashed 80% of America's youth. We have already determined that your daughter is in fact above average, but you should still make a note to let go of some arrogance and come to terms with the average population. After all, half of us are under it. I sincerely hope that you can change your attitude, for this country deeply frowns upon such mentalities.</p>
<p>
[quote]
OP, You are normal and I understand you 100%. You love your child so much that you want the best for her. At the same time, all you see are those kids who score 2380 on SAT and 17 AP classes with a weighted GPA of 5.97.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But who says "the best" is found only at Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford/Brown/Northwestern/Penn/Berkeley? You know, the people who go to the top schools may be higher academic achievers, but that doesn't make them better human beings, it doesn't make them immune from emotional distress, it doesn't make them inherently more likely to make a difference in the world, it doesn't make them of any less value to their family and friends. It just means that they are particularly smart in the academic sense of the word. That's all.</p>
<p>Hey i'm a student and i've been following this thread all day because I think its really audacious you would say something like that about your own child, its despicable.</p>
<p>If you want another perspective on it ill share something that happened to me when I was just in middle school.</p>
<p>I'm in boy scouts and when I was around 12 years old I had decided I didn't really like it and told my parents I didn't want to continue with it. Unlike most parents who would be okay with it, my parents weren't. They punished me and told me I wouldn't amount to anything in life if I quit. Keep in mind I don't like it.</p>
<p>A year later I try again to quick. This time my parents don't talk to me for a week and treat me like i'm dirt saying things like "you'll be one of those thugs out on the street dealing drugs" "you'll be digging trenches for construction companies for the rest of the life" "you're just a quitter".</p>
<p>I didn't think nothing of it because I was only 13 was afraid of what my parents might do to me, but after thinking about for a while and reading posts from this site, including from the OP, I think what happened when I was a child is no different than telling your child if they don't get into a top school, they'll amount to nothing and the parents won't help pay for their education.</p>
<p>In case your wondering, I did get eagle scout, I didn't earn it, I didnt want it, my parents MADE me get it and they're still making me do it. Along with that they told me all the stories that i'm sure people associated with boy scouts know: If you get eagle, everyone in the world will bow down to you and fulfill your desires(exaggeration)</p>
<p>When it came time to write my essay, thats all I had to write about(and I hated my essay) since my parents wouldn't let me do other activities because it would "distract me from boy scouts". So I didn't have have any other EC I actually felt passionate about to write about.</p>
<p>Because of all thats happened to me i've actually gathered to courage to speak up against my parents to let them know I have a voice, but it doesn't really matter when they have the power to kick me out if I don't comply with their boy scout rule.</p>
<p>DAd II, That you find the following language "normal" is disturbing and please note how very alone you are in your opinion. The truth is that most of us would never use this kind of language to describe our own child no matter what the facts of their academic record were:</p>
<p>-Bit of a loser
-sort of dumb
-almost laughable
-comparatively abysmal</p>
<p>I've only read the first several posts, so sorry if you're mind has changed through these 8 or so pages, but I have to agree with the overwhelming sentiment on this thread. Harmful parental discouragement is perhaps one of the most destructive forces in a student's life, especially considering the sensitivity of teenagers. Remember, this is a crucial time of development for us.</p>
<p>Like Polihist's parents, my dad told me that I should drop out of school given my ostensible stupidity (he didn't even look at my grades, tests, whatever), telling me that I'd amount to nothing but a "dog on the streets." Whenever I get any analogous criticism, his voice rings in my head, and I must say it elicits an emotion nothing short of murderous. </p>
<p>If you believe that telling your daughter she's nothing but a median is some kind of encouragement for growth or focus, think again. Not all people who receive criticism can turn it into a source of determination; her life isn't a ****ing game.</p>
<p>I think you're forgetting your place as a mother. Indeed, it's truly disgusting that you speak ill of your daughter, especially on the internet. I must ask, did your parents think you were a par excellence individual?</p>
<p>Bec, You are the kind of Mom I strive to be and your son's willingness to fight so hard for what he wants in life is truly awesome. </p>
<p>You and your son are not average, you are far above. I wish the journey was not such a fraught one for you both but I am so very thankful that he has you to walk with him.</p>
<p>Let's turn the tables a minute:</p>
<p>To the OP: if your daughter were chatting among friends.... how do you think she would rate you? Does she have a wonderful, brilliant, amazing parent? or would she think that her mom is "about average" as parents go? </p>
<p>What do you do for a living? Do you have an advanced degree? Awards? Why are you worried about the cost of college? After all, there are a lot of kids whose parents are highly accomplished, rich and famous. Why should your daughter have to settle for anything less?</p>
<p>(And if you happen to be an "average" adult... then why would you think you were entitled to anything other than an "average" kid?) </p>
<p>I understand that we all have hopes and dreams.... but I raised a couple of kids with the attitude that I would be eternally grateful if we could avoid legal troubles, car accidents, drug abuse, and teen pregnancy. I got my wish. (Almost... there was that fender-bender that caused our insurance rates to triple..... but that happened the day after I had berated my daughter for not studying for her SAT's... so its fitting that it can be used in this thread to illustrate the self-induced bad karma of an overly-critical parent). </p>
<p>You might think my bar is set pretty low, but I really didn't think it was reasonable to expect much more than that my kids would stay out of trouble and grow up to be law-abiding citizens -- after all, its their lives, not mine. I happen to be very proud of both my kids -- I think they have accomplished some amazing things -- but I was proud of my son for the work he was doing when he was a college dropout, just as much as anything else. I mean, sometimes I'm just proud of my kids for things they do that are good as opposed to things they do that are special, such as volunteer work they have done.</p>