My child refuses to consider safety schools and financial limitations

Parents Forum
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<p>I'm at a loss on what to do. My D has a list of schools that she wants to apply to: </p>

<p>NYU, GW, Chicago, BU, American</p>

<p>She has a total SAT score of 2020. Gpa is 3.9. I have no problems, in theory, with any of these colleges. However, I have to consider the cost of going to college. My income is less than $33K per year, and I don't own any homes/property/business. Also, I don't have any family members with money to help us out. I expect that our EFC will be zero, or close to that. </p>

<p>My D just refuses to consider applying to any financially-sound schools. She won't consider an instate school, where she would qualify for a state grant, and where the total cost is significantly less than the $50K per year of her choices. She feels that her choices are better because they're "private," and that they're ranked higher than our state's colleges (exception: Princeton). </p>

<p>Moreover, I know that BU and American accept around 50 percent of applicants, but her other choices are lower than that. She doesn't want to consider any college with a higher acceptance rate because she thinks that a higher admit rate (over 70%) means the school is "bad." Plus, she feels that she can beat the odds and gain admission, and that I'm somehow "insulting" her by suggesting that she add a couple of safety schools. </p>

<p>She hasn't applied to any of these schools yet, and I have not mentioned anything to her about my concerns in the last couple of days. However, whenever I bring it up, it just leads to a big argument. </p>

<p>What route should I take with this problem? I know that some believe that college is an "investment," so borrowing $20K a year, for instance, is worth it in the end. However, I see too many college graduates with loans payments they can't afford, and no way am I going to use private loans. Then, a couple of friends tell me to lay down the law and just tell her that she can't apply to schools that don't give good financial aid. </p>

<p>I'm sorry for the length. Any advice from other parents out there?</p>

2

<p>I don’t know what to tell you honestly, but I’m sorry she’s being so stubborn. With your income and financial situation she should get a lot of financial aid. You should just let her know that you aren’t going to borrow any money and that you aren’t going to co-sign any loans. You might want to post on the financial aid board. There are a lot of people over there who REALLY know what they are talking about. Good luck.</p>

3

<p>What we did with our kids before they even started looking and then brought up again before the applications went in was that we could afford XXX, after that they would have to take out loans. It was not a matter of discussion and we weren’t trying to be mean, but we know what we can afford. So far, it’s worked and our older two found colleges that they liked and offered very good merit aid. It was much more then a “concern” to us.</p>

4

<p>I think your daughter needs a serious reality check. Show her your finances on paper and let her see exactly what the situation is - if she’s mature enough to handle going to college, she should be able to deal with this. I sense a bit of fear in your “voice” and you must stand up for yourself. DO NOT go into debt yourself to send her to school. With your income level, you don’t need any more burdens in your future, and in fact should start planning for when you need to stop working at some point. If she chooses to go into debt to go to school, then that will be her problem to deal with.</p>

<p>Offer to help her research schools with good financial aid packages. If she is still not happy, you must let her know the limit of your ability to help her and leave it at that.</p>

<p>By the way, even the best students have safeties. There are no guarantees except this - being in debt is no way to start life! She seems to be living in a dream world, imo.</p>

5

<p>GW and Chicago offer pretty good aid. NYU and American probably won’t work for you. BU is a maybe. Perhaps you can offer to pay the app fee for GW and Chicago and decline for nyu and American. At least she will get something she wants. She should probably also apply to her state flagship and another state school as well as a couple of need based LACs. Negotiate!</p>

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<p>You must insist that she apply to some financial safeties, too. Help her find one or two that she would be okay with going to.</p>

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<p>Have you asked her how she’s going to pay for these colleges?</p>

<p>She’s used to you paying for things, I suspect, but now that she is making her own decisions, and will soon legally be an adult – if she isn’t already – it’s time for her to learn that adults pay their own way. She may not be happy about it, but that’s the way it is.</p>

<p>If she can’t get the money to go to these colleges, she won’t be able to attend them. It’s not the end of the world if she has to take a year off.</p>

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<p>The thought of my D taking a year off and staying home might make me take out private loans to pay for college.</p>

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<p>Figure out exactly what you can afford and are willing and able to spend. Be very clear to yourself about that first so you can then more strongly, succinctly and clearly tell your daughter the bottom line. Maybe you also need to connect the dots for her— showing her what you can afford, and what each of her options may end up costing and where the gap may lie. Maybe you even have to write all of this out, so she can see it for herself, or process it later at her own pace. </p>

<p>Then I would also find a way to have her think about her back up plan and get the right decision choices in her head (which is NOT between dream school A and ‘bad’ school B, but between ‘bad’ school B and the alternative of not being in college at all). If she is not admitted to her set of schools, what will she be doing next year, what does she picture? Getting a job or?? Likewise, if she is admitted and fin aid doesn’t cover the gap between what you can pay and what it will cost, what are her back up plans? </p>

<p>Keep asking her if she would rather be at home looking for a local job OR enrolled in a safety? </p>

<p>All easier said than done but maybe you aren’t yet able to be sufficiently black and white and steadfast in your decision yet; and/or she doesn’t believe you; and/or she’s just not yet mature enough to think through to the reality of next year.</p>

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<p>I insisted each kid have a “mommy school” that I got to choose, not questions asked on their parts.</p>

<p>They didn’t end up going to my picks, but they were accepted, and we would have been able to afford them.</p>

<p>And in the end, they liked these schools; they just liked the ones they chose better. Since the numbers worked out that was fine with me.</p>

<p>Rutgers, College of New Jersey are fine schools. And then SUNY schools are a bargain out of state.</p>

<p>And you may want to consult the thread on good merit offers in your D’s range.</p>

<p>It’s hard to “convince” the young when they dig their heels in, but we can insist.</p>

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<p>As far as letting her know how much you can afford to contribute… I don’t see on your income the ability to contribute much (if anything.)</p>

<p>If I was in your situation I’d just tell her that. If she won’t cooperate and work with you to find some other options, then so be it. Community colleges don’t generally have application deadlines, so there’s always that option.</p>

<p>Don’t take out loans (or co-sign loans) on your income.</p>

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<p>How is she paying for her college applications? If she’s relying on you, you don’t have to pay for applications to colleges that you know you wouldn’t be able to afford.</p>

<p>Otherwise, let her know about how much you’re willing to provide for each year of her education. If she refuses to apply to financial safeties and ends up not being able to afford to go to the colleges that accept her, she’ll have other options including taking a gap year or living at home while going to the local community college. Some people have to learn the hard way.</p>

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<p>Bundle…Don’t even THINK about taking out any student loans. You are not a high earner and you shouldn’t jeopardize your financial situation when your D does have other options. </p>

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<p>I had the same thought as Northstar. Don’t pay for any apps for schools that are unaffordable. Don’t waste YOUR money. BTW…all of these schools are private, if she’ll need financial aid, she’ll need her dad’s financial info. Will he provide it? Will he help pay for college?</p>

<p>I would bring a 3rd party in to mediate this situation (someone who you know won’t stupidly side with her.) It would have to be someone that your daughter respects and trusts.</p>

<p>How does your d think the bills will be paid? Student loans by her? Student loans by you or her dad? the college fairy???</p>

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<p>A couple of things that might keep this from escalating into War.

  1. You won’t know the package on any of these schools until she applies and is accepted. So, tell her to apply and tell her that when she gets the acceptance package, the two of you will have to sit down and make some hard choices. She will go for this because she can defer reality until April. You can live with this because you defer battles until April. </p>

<p>2) Insisting on one Mommy pick is reasonable. Tell her you will come up with application fees for 5 schools but the deal is that she has to do one Mommy pick and that she has to do a bang up job on that application. This is more than fair. (Meanwhile see if your income level excuses you from application fees for any of these schools). </p>

<p>3) Don’t have heart failure on the sticker prices at this point. If the cost of attendance is $50,000 that does NOT mean you/she will have to write out a check for that amount. There are many ways to trim thousands. For instance, many colleges have 3 levels of meal plans. If she will eat “light” instead of “deluxe” she may save $2000. If your health insurance will cover her so you don’t have to buy college health insurance, then you may save $1500. If she is willing to use used books, she may save $500 a year. </p>

<p>4) Know that each school has scholarship money that you will have never heard about. The music department may have money for a left handed tuba player of Lithuanian descent and you won’t know about it until your left handed, tuba playing kid applies and is accepted and suddenly you get a call gently inquiring about the family tree. This is the stuff that shows up in the acceptance packet – and why you don’t know what YOUR cost of attendance is until April. </p>

<p>5) Know that financial aid officers play their cards very close to their chest. At this point in the year, they don’t know exactly which kids they want. By March of next year they will know they are running short on applicants choosing chemistry majors . . .or that the music department has plenty of flute players but is desperate for horns. That’s when they are deciding just how bad they want your kid. They will be looking at the FAFSA (absolutely, you MUST fill this out in January. Use estimates if you don’t have the taxes done and amend the FAFSA later. But get an early January FAFSA application date). More in a minute</p>

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<p>It really is pointless to argue about a school until April. I promise it is. </p>

<p>Parents everywhere are having indigestion to heart failure over college costs. But this is NOT like buying a house where you write a contract saying “this house for this amount”. This is an ever evolving situation and the financial aid officers will only make vague, happy statements until April. </p>

<p>Please, please do let her apply to some of the private schools on her list. She sounds like a strong candidate for any of them. One or more may have deep pockets for her. You won’t know until she tries. Keep in mind that if she is accepted to one of these prestigious schools, it will give you a bargaining chip. You can go to Mommy’s pick (Happy College, just down the road) and say “She applied to you and to BU and BU has offered her $$$. (Never mind that BU costs $$$$$$$$$). Can you match BU’s offer because I really think this would be a better fit for her” or some such similar. Happy College may be charmed by thinking they could snatch a gal of that BU caliber and come up with some extra dough. </p>

<p>This stuff takes shrewdness and nerves of steel. We did it with Kid #1 and he ended up with a terrific school and is very happy there. He also got some rejections, so it wasn’t all roses. His school has been abundantly generous. It can happen. (I’m hoping lightning strikes twice 'cause Kid #2 is in the pipeline).
Good luck!</p>

16

<p>If your EFC is zero…and it seems it might be close to that, given your income…then your D should get good financial aid at many private schools that give need-based aid with no gap. What am I missing?</p>

<p>It’s entirely appropriate for her to figure on borrowing $5K a year on loans that are hers, not yours. It’s also good for her to figure on working 5-8 hours a week during the school year and working during the summer unless she gets a bang-up internship that’s worth more in the long-run than a job would be.</p>

<p>Absolutely do not take the price tag as being what all these schools will cost.</p>

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<p>I agree with the other posters. You should not even consider borrowing for your daughter’s education. There’s no way you could pay it back. Moreover, you are, as you say, not in a position to contribute more than a tiny amount to your daughter’s education out of your own income. </p>

<p>Therefore, your daughter’s not going to get any money from you for college. Time for her to wake up and smell the coffee. I think Chicago would make it possible for her to attend if she were admitted, but NYU? It is to laugh.</p>

<p>She needs to rethink her list, because there are a couple of schools missing from it-- the ones she is sure she can get in and afford.</p>

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<p>Thanks to everyone who responded to my post. =)</p>

<p>As far as college application fees, goes, that hasn’t been an issue yet, as she hasn’t sent any apps out; she’s still working on the Common App. I was thinking about not paying them for certain schools (although I was told that due to my income, I would qualify for fee waivers.) However, I do have to step up and do this. I really cannot afford to take loans out on her behalf. (Although some friends believe that I should do so.)</p>

<p>Mom2collegekids: her father is not in the picture at all. I know that some schools require the noncustodial parent to send income and asset info (i.e. the noncustodial CSS profile), which is another issue with schools that require it, but he will not help out. I am alone in this, as her high school counselor isn’t much help, either. </p>

<p>I do like the idea of “mommy school,” though. </p>

<p>My D states that she will just borrow whatever the school doesn’t cover in financial aid. I know this is a crazy idea, but then I read of horror stories about college graduates who have six-figure loans who can’t afford the monthly payments, so borrowing excessively seems to be a common “strategy.”</p>

<p>I sometimes regret showing her the USNWR college rankings magazine. I know that it can be a helpful tool for many, but in my case, it’s hard to convince her that a school that isn’t in the top 100, a third-tier, or a university-Master’s, is one where she can get a good education.</p>

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<p>1) You won’t know the package on any of these schools until she applies and is accepted. So, tell her to apply and tell her that when she gets the acceptance package, the two of you will have to sit down and make some hard choices. She will go for this because she can defer reality until April. You can live with this because you defer battles until April. </p>

<p>2) Insisting on one Mommy pick is reasonable. Tell her you will come up with application fees for 5 schools but the deal is that she has to do one Mommy pick and that she has to do a bang up job on that application. This is more than fair. (Meanwhile see if your income level excuses you from application fees for any of these schools).
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<p>I agree with the above, but would add that there should be (at least) 2-3 “mommy picked financial safeties”, and this is why…</p>

<p>1) Financial safety schools usually have very EZ apps…usually online and no essays required (or a real “nothing” essay). If necessary, do the EZ online apps yourself. When DS2 only wanted to apply to ONE school (we knew he’d get in), I asked if I could do some EZ online apps for him and that was fine. It took me just a few minutes per app. I sent the scores, and filled out the school request for transcripts. Some of these EZ online apps are only one page, because those schools have “formula acceptances”. All they want is to see transcripts and official scores and that’s it. :)</p>

<p>2) Financial safety school apps are usually cheap or free if done online.</p>

<p>3) I don’t know what her dad’s role will be in any of this, but private schools insist on seeing his financial info. He may be an absent dad…or he may resist giving that info to her (or you), or his income may be too high so your D won’t qualify for any or much aid.</p>

<p>4) It is very likely that none of her choices will be viable in the spring when the F/A package will arrive, even if there are minor helps in it. More likely they will have student loans in them, and those just aren’t a good idea for most undergrads (or parents who don’t make a lot of money).</p>

<p>5) ** When spring comes, and it becomes obvious that her choices aren’t feasible, she will NOT be happy IF all she has is one financial safety left. Even if she “likes” that school, she will feel financially railroaded into taking the “consolation prize.” HOWEVER, if at that point, she has 2-3 financial safeties to choose from, at least she’ll feel somewhat empowered and somewhat “in control” of her education’s future. **</p>

<p>Because of your unique situation - one where your child won’t pick any financial safeties - I believe that you’ll all be happier in the long run if you insist on at least 2-3 mommy picked financial safeties. :)</p>

<p>Since you may not have a chance to get your D to visit any of “your picks” before you apply, if the schools’ websites have an online “Virtual Tour,” avail yourself of those…</p>

<p>Also, there are people here who could help you come up with some good financial safety suggestions… :)</p>

<p>Good luck!!!</p>

<p>BTW…I just had a thought…does any of her attitude have anything to do with a somewhat recent divorce or something like that? Is she “digging in her heels” because she feels that the “family situation” is causing her not to get to go where she wants to go? I’m just wondering because that happened to one of S2’s classmates. This girl didn’t want to accept that her parents’ financial situation was much different now that they were living in two households. </p>

<p>Perhaps, I’m way off base with that above thought. Perhaps this is happening because her friends are all applying to pricey privates, so she wants to do what they are doing. That happens a lot, too.</p>

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<p>It’s very easy for some people to say that…they won’t be the ones struggling to pay those loans back. Never listen to others when they insist that you should spend/borrow money that you can’t afford. They won’t have to live with the results. </p>

<p>{{{hugs}}}</p>