My child refuses to consider safety schools and financial limitations

Parents Forum
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<p>Because of the mention of Princeton, I assume that the OP is in NJ. TCNJ ranks quite well in the USNWR - #5 in the North Master’s Universities (and, as they like to point out, the top public school in that category.) And with your D’s stats, she is likely to qualify for merit aid there as well. </p>

<p>I think it is reasonable for you to insist that your D apply there, so that it will be there as an alternative. TCNJ is my S’s safety school. They use the Common App, and have no additional essay, so there would be little additional effort required on her part to apply. </p>

<p>Once you have more information available in the spring about where she got in, what FA she got, you can face the hard decision of where to go. No need to fight that battle now, without having the relevant information.</p>

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<p>I let my daughter apply wherever she wanted, and I paid for them IF she would also apply to our in state university where I knew she’d earn automatic scholarships that would mean her cost would be, not only a public tuition level, but also in -state tuition, AND even that cut at least in half with the scholarships. And possibly even a full ride. </p>

<p>Like your daughter, even though it’s a great school, it’s lower ranked and D isn’t thrilled. BUT…that’s how our financial cookie crumbles. We also buy shoes at DSW and don’t carry Gucci or Burberry purses. That’s just how it is. That’s our income/budget. We don’t buy $100 dinners out, but we eat just fine. There are others at food pantries right now. Everyone has their own level of need, desire, income, output. And we have to make smart decisions. What would happen if you take out loans of $20,000 x 4? With your income…how in the world would you be able to pay for that? The rest of your life? What if you, God forbid, get sick? You could have knocked me over with a feather when I found out I had cancer…I was healthy (feeling) as a horse! </p>

<p>So…AFTER applying to our state school…anything else was fine with me. I had to prod her constantly. But she’s applied and it’s done and I don’t care if she applies anyplace else or not. Mind you, this is a 2210SAT/34ACT child, and I know the schools she wants to attend, but I don’t think we can afford them. But…you never know until you get your financial package. I was pleasantly surprised when I filled out a cost estimator the other day, so…who knows.</p>

<p>But, as far as an “investment”. Yes, it is…up to a point. But is it SHE who will reap the rewards of a great income but YOU who will pay for the education? For me…I’m worried that, if I go into debt that long…I might get sick again or lose my job. And…will I have money for retirement or will I be a burden on her after I spent all that money on her college? At that point, she’d BETTER have a high paying job. </p>

<p>We want our kids to have everything. Especially if WE didn’t have it ourselves. And a bachelor’s degree these days is maybe what a high school education was in the 60s/70s. The MINIMUM necessary. So…your high school doesn’t cost that much. Why should college? In other words…maybe she can look to a “better” school if she wants to go to graduate school. Then she can be employed, take classes at night, etc. My deal with my D is, IF we find I can MAYBE afford a more expensive college…then there is ZERO money for grad school. But if she goes to state school for free…then maybe I can pitch in for graduate. At your income level, you might not be able to make that deal. So I see why you want to negotiate. You want the most for her. One thing that I’m doing to help her feel better is that I’ve looked at comments regarding our state school on CC. There are people from California and NY who REALLY want to go there. I think, when the school is in their own backyard, they just don’t REALIZE that it’s a good school. It’s the obvious. The “given”. </p>

<p>With her stats, she stands a decent chance of decent aid, when coupled with your income level at prestigious schools who “meet full need”. But, even then, a lot of that “aid” will be loans (except at VERY tippy top schools and it really doesn’t look like the stats lean toward top Ivies). </p>

<p>But think Northwestern, who pledges to meet need (I’m pretty sure), but not schools like NYU. I’ve never heard of anyone, merit and need combined, that got more than $32,000 in total scholarships. That leaves about $23,000 in yearly loans, etc. (Hopefully she WILL invest in work study offers). </p>

<p>I just think she really DOES have to be convinced to “go where the money is”. Maybe she’ll really stand out/shine in a good local school…whereas she might get lost in a bigger school where higher stats are the norm. </p>

<p>Bottom line. Valedictorians with 2400s get denied admission to the Ivies. Nothing is “for sure”. NOBODY NOBODY NOBODY should let application season go by without applying to a minimum of one safety school. We’re lucky ours has rolling admissions so it’s already “in our pocket”…and the rest is gravy. Maybe you have one like that. You can say “just this one, before I’ll pay for the others…let’s just get one in the bank…it will feel good to know you have an acceptance and you won’t have to stress about any of the others”. GOOD LUCK.</p>

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<p>In addition to a financial safety…your daughter needs an academic safety. She is applying to several selective schools in Chicago and GW which I would consider reaches for her and others in which she will be competing with many others with similar stats. If she limits her applications to these schools, she many not have any options in the spring.</p>

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<p>speedo…</p>

<p>Yes, the dad is a wild card, but assuming he’s low income too and will fill out paperwork…</p>

<p>Which schools offer no loans for demonstrated need? (I’m not one who thinks borrowing $27,000 in Stafford loans (or more!) is a financial safety strategy since the repayment F/A calculator says the student will owe $310 a month for 10 years.)</p>

<p>I agree that TCNJ and Rutgers should be on her list. She should also have at least one nice school that will very likely give her a free-ride or near free ride. </p>

<p>:)</p>

<p>R12 quote: >>>
I let my daughter apply wherever she wanted, and I paid for them IF she would also apply to our in state university where I knew she’d earn automatic scholarships that would mean her cost would be, not only a public tuition level, but also in -state tuition, AND even that cut at least in half with the scholarships. And possibly even a full ride.
<<<</p>

<p>Another good strategy… :)</p>

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<p>I think that a financial safety should also be an academic safety. A financial safety should also be a school where the student is assured of acceptance due to rather formula admittance policies. I don’t think a financial safety should be a selective school unless it has formula policies and the student easily meets those policies.</p>

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<p>Finding academic safeties is no problem, but finding academic safeties that are also financial safeties is a big problem. Assuming that EFC is really 0, The remaining net cost - gap- after aid at both Rutgers and TCNJ will be at 13 or 14 grand. So even after staffords, sub and unsub, the initial first year gap will be at least $8,000. That number will rise every year as will the staffords. It’s doable but not exactly a financial safety. At the income level the op states there really are no financial safeties, other than the local community college. Again, if the 0 efc is accurate, this student is actually making some pretty smart decisions, although she needs to refine her choice of colleges. NYU and American will not work at this income level.</p>

<p>mom2colleges</p>

<p>list of no-loan colleges [Project</a> on Student Debt: Financial Aid Pledges](<a href=“http://projectonstudentdebt.org/pc_institution.php]Project”>http://projectonstudentdebt.org/pc_institution.php)</p>

<p>Basically at the op’s income level choices are extremely limited without going into serious debt. Even today’s standard private school loan package
which amounts to around 29 grand in Staffords over 4 years is a good deal if the college meets your EFC. Outside of the top schools this is about as good as it gets. That’s why it’s really worth a shot to put several of the better schools on your list. The financial payoff is huge if you get admitted.</p>

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<p>TCNJ costs about $23,000 per year. She MIGHT receive some merit $ but according the TCNJ site, “merit scholarship amounts average between $3,000 and $6,000 per year… Most students who receive a merit award fall within the top 10% of their class (MUST be ranked) and have a Critical Reading and Math combined SAT score of 1300 (ACT composite score of 30) or higher. A number of other factors are also considered – including co-curricular involvement and leadership.” Beware that “New Jersey Bloustein Scholars are INCLUDED in TCNJ scholarship award amounts.” </p>

<p>Rutgers costs are similar. RU used to post a chart giving specifics regarding class rank and SATs required. RU no longer posts this info. Given this economy, I doubt they are giving away MORE money now. It used to be that you needed a minimum of 1300 M & CR to get some $. I remember classmates retaking 3 or 4 times to try to get that last 10 points to make the 1300. To get the Presidential award (almost a full ride), you needed 1500 SATs and top 5% (I think). </p>

<p>So, the OP’s stats should get her into RU and maybe TCNJ, I think she will still have substantial costs, with lots of loans included in her FA pkg.</p>

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<p>I’m not a parent, but, honestly, you need to tell her realistically how much YOU are willing and able to contribute to her education, and that YOU are not willing or able to contribute more than that allotted amount. That being said, if she wants to go to such an expensive school, let her pay for it.</p>

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<p>Haven’t read all of the responses, but here are some thoughts I think that were missing.</p>

<p>First of all, I think your daughter is assuming that she can get enough loans to finance her education. As much as we read about the students who go overboard, there seem to be quite a few students this year who cannot find a lender willing to go that deep. Especially considering that you (the parent) are not valuable as a co-signer. </p>

<p>Perhaps if she called a few lenders to find out exactly how much they WILL lend her might give her a clue that the numbers aren’t magically going to be there, even if she wants to dig a hole she can’t climb out of.</p>

<p>Your daughter seems to have picked out some big name private schools in glamorous places with good sized enrollments for the most part. Doesn’t seem to go along with the focus on personalized education that she stresses as much as a small LAC (<2000 students) might offer. </p>

<p>I think she is confusing the idea that all privates are better than all publics for personal attention as well. In some smaller programs, a big public can be every bit as personal as a small private.</p>

<p>Do we have a field of study here (can’t tell from the school list)? Perhaps there are some bargains to be had (good program at a lesser school where she would get superior FA).</p>

<p>Clearly in the end, she is not coming to the realization that Prince Charming U is not going to sweep her off her feet and take care of her college needs for ever. Point this out however has not been an effective strategy. Perhaps, with some greater understanding of what features of Prince Charming U she desires, we can suggest some better alternatives.</p>

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<p>^
read the posts, man</p>

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<p>It’s important to determine the father’s impact on FA. You say he’s out of the picture. Does that mean he literally has not been in his child’s life - meaning no contact, no child support? If so, then you may be able to get paperwork filled out stating this by your school principal, clergy, etc. Your tax returns would back up the no child support. In this case, SOMETIMES, the private schools will not include his info. Depends on the school.</p>

<p>IF he IS in the picture, but like some parents, he refuses to contribute toward college, then you must make your DD realize this WILL impact her FA pkg at Profile schools because they will include his income/assets. If so, your DD should then make sure she includes some FAFSA only schools on her list (which won’t use the divorced father’s info). There are some private schools who also only use FAFSA (U Miami, RIT) so look around. Downside is that FAFSA only schools rarely meet full need.</p>

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<p>I don’t consider that very constructive nor polite.</p>

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<p>Yes, I think before this op gives any direction to the student, she needs to fully investigate her financial situation with regard to the father. Without that info, it’s almost impossible to do any sensible college planning. The solution here starts with mom and possibly dad.</p>

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<p>Of the 5 schools on Bundlekin’s list, Chicago is the only one that is also on speedo’s list above. And Chicago is a reach.</p>

<p>On speedo’s list, the more or less urban universities that are very approximately as selective than Chicago include Rice, Emory, Northwestern, WUSTL and Vanderbilt. Expanding the criteria to include urban/suburban LACs, you might also consider Claremont McKenna, Haverford, Wesleyan, Tufts, Lafayette, Lehigh. More rural LACs would include Oberlin. </p>

<p>These all seem to be reach schools (with the possible exceptions of Lafayette and Lehigh, which might be in match territory - hard to say w/o more info).</p>

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<p>I hope I’m understanding your last sentence. I think you’re saying that if a school isn’t in the top 100 in National Universities, then she won’t consider them. She won’t consider a 3rd tier or a Univ-Masters, is that right?</p>

<p>The whole rankings thing can be confusing in regards to determining the quality of education. A 3rd tier school may be outstanding in several majors, but because it may not have “good depth” in all majors (or it may not offer a wide-spectrum of majors), it can end up being ranked as “3rd tier” or worse. </p>

<p>There is a univ in my part of the state that doesn’t rank highly in USnews, because it doesn’t excel in numerous majors. It excels in Engineering, Math, Science, Health related, and business. It’s not super strong in the typical liberal arts, theatre, music, or art areas. So, it gets a lower ranking. But no one should avoid that school if they want to become an engineer or something in one of their strong majors. It’s location by numerous national high tech companies makes it a co-op school. Many kids graduate debt free because their employer pays their school bills. When they graduate, they begin working full-time, and if desired, their company pays for grad school.</p>

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<p>I agree. that’s why I listed Miss St (MSU). It’s a Forbes Top 20 College Buy. It’s the flagship U so it has all the hoopla associated with that.</p>

<p>The OP’s D could likely go there for free, or with very minimal loans (maybe $10k total by graduation). I know some would pooh pooh such a choice (OMG, it’s in the SOUTH!!! LOL), but since my kids’ Catholic high school sends a lot of kids there (even tho it’s OOS ), I know that it’s a good school to go to. The parents of these kids are all highly educated and are from all parts of the country (we live in an area of high tech educated transplants), so I know that they’ve “checked out the school” quite well. These are parents who’ve gone to NE, Big 10, or Pac 10 schools themselves, so I trust their judgment.</p>

<p>I will be doing a campus visit there in about 3 weeks with a friend and her daughter. Her D goes to my kids’ Catholic high. I’m tagging along so that I can learn more about the school. </p>

<p>Here’s the link… [Mississippi</a> State University](<a href=“http://www.msstate.edu/]Mississippi”>http://www.msstate.edu/)</p>

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<p>Her stats are: " SAT score of 2020. Gpa is 3.9. "</p>

<p>Her stats make the most generous schools – places like HPY, Amherst – distant reaches. Her odds are even less than the 1 in 10 odds of acceptance that most students have at such schools. Her SAT score is low for such schools, and she’d need exceptional ECs to stand out in the applicant pool of such schools, which attract many of the strongest students in the country when it comes to grades, scores, and ECs.</p>

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<p>That would raise a lot of hackles in Oxford MS.</p>

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<p>these days HYP are distant reaches for most everyone</p>

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<p>Hi. Sorry I took awhile to post. Busy day.
Wow. Thanks to all of you for your wonderful suggestions! =) It’s nice to have support.</p>

<p>As far a her father is concerned, I know that some private schools require his financial information for the noncustodial CSS profile. Since that is not going to happen, any schools that requires that form is out. I explained that to her, and she seems to understand that. At least most schools still only use the FAFSA, which doesn’t ask for it. Of course, this means no Chicago, BU and American (if my info is correct). So now we have to come up other ideas. </p>

<p>However, she actually told me today that she is actually considering Rutgers and TCNJ (we live in NJ)! (I think because a couple of her friends told her they were good schools!) Thank goodness.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the update. It’s good to hear that her perspective is broadening.</p>