My child refuses to consider safety schools and financial limitations

Parents Forum
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<p>Bundle, I was probably exaggerating when I said free ride-perhaps she wouldn’t get it for those schools, but surely for some. I do consider paying $10K-$15K a year for a $50K/year+ school is pretty much a free ride. For most of these elite schools, there are many kids whose parents have high incomes (little savings), who qualify for zero FA because of income-leaving the child or parent with $200K+ debt after 4 years. In comparison, $40-$50K of debt is quite a deal. Not so good when you’re 22 years old and have picked a low paying career field, but if she has interned and chosen an employable and higher paying career then not so bad. Of course, who has any idea what the future job market is going to be! But what a discount compared to what most people are paying.</p>

<p>I do suggest that you do two things to get a more accurate estimate. Call up the school’s FA office, and directly ask them what the maximum FA available is-and is it in grants, work study or loans. Hopefully you’ll get a straight answer. Also, it might be worth posting on the school specific college confidential websites. You may find that people are very forthcoming with detailed information about income and FA packages when they can be anonymous. If she can get into the school she wants with a small yearly loan and work study-wouldn’t it be worth it? And if she doesn’t have a job to earn some extra cash, then she’ll just have to survive without the plays and nightlife in the big city. There are plenty of other starving students to hang out with, but she could always work in the summer.</p>

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<p>It was too late to edit my post, hence the new reply.</p>

<p>[Macaulay</a> Honors College - Frequently Asked Questions](<a href=“Macaulay Honors College”>http://macaulay.cuny.edu/prospective-students/faqs.php)</p>

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<p>For the banks, yes. I would not consider so much debt a good deal for the student, however; I think that is far too much for a new grad.</p>

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<p>" I do consider paying $10K-$15K a year for a $50K/year+ school is pretty much a free ride. "</p>

<p>I personally would consider it a great deal for my kid, but the OP is a single parent with a less than $33 k annual income. Such a “good deal” wouldn’t be a good deal for her and her child.</p>

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<p>With 33K/year without any other significant sources of income, I’d think she’d get a big chunk of it. I have no experience in FA, but wondering why so many parents here against the idea of applying? Look at Duke, for example, [Duke</a> Financial Aid:](<a href=“Homepage | Karsh Office of Undergraduate Financial Support”>Homepage | Karsh Office of Undergraduate Financial Support) .</p>

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<p>They should apply to some of these schools her daughter is interested in. OP is interested in her D applying additionally to financial and academic safety schools as well. Then in April there will likely be an option that is doable.</p>

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<p>^^
susgeek…is that money available to OOS students or just to NY students.</p>

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<p>I posted in message #122 - it is available to everyone.</p>

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<p>Quote:
Should a student who applies for financial aid not be offered an award that makes attendance possible, the student may decline the offer of admission and be released from the Early Decision commitment. </p>

<p><a href=“https://www.commonapp.org/CommonApp/…_Agreement.pdf%5B/url%5D”>https://www.commonapp.org/CommonApp/…_Agreement.pdf</a></p>

<p>But wanting to compare FA offers is the best reason not to apply ED, which should be reserved for the one dream school above all others where she would attend if there is any way to make it work financially. But if it doesn’t work (e.g., too much in loans, and it’s the student’s/family’s decision, not the school’s), she just says thanks but no thanks, and applies RD elsewhere.
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<p>But…if they offer Student Loans, then technically they are making it financially possible. The school defines whether they have made it possible to attend…that’s the gray area.</p>

<p>Plus, my going ED, if she’s accepted, she’s required to immediately withdraw her other apps. That means she’ll never know what fabulous offers other colleges may offer.</p>

<p>My sis’ son did ED…they are paying full-freight at a top 20 school. They now wish they had applied RA so that they could have seen what other options/offers would have come in. She realizes now that he son would have likely been given free tuition (or at least 1/2 tuition) at his second choice school (that would save them between $70k-140k - yikes).</p>

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<p>mom2,</p>

<p>The ole Miss crowd is making voodoo dolls in your image…</p>

<p>Seriously, the OP’s D should realize that acceptance to a well endowed school with good financial aid is not a foregone conclusion. Her stats are good but not great. She needs safties!!!</p>

<p>Many schools’ endowments have taken a hammering and need blind admission is largely a myth in today’s economy.</p>

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<p>Well, I think burdening a young adult through her 20s and early 30’s with a $600 a month repayment is very difficult (if she borrowed a total of $50k). </p>

<p>My sister is a licensed therapist who now makes good money; she found that her student loan debt caused all kinds of problems…with her marriage, with her ability to buy a first home, with so many things. </p>

<p>The problem is that it often takes a while before a person is making “good money.” If my sister had to repay the money now - now that she’s 45 and making REALLY good money - then it wouldn’t have been a problem. But during the years of ages 26-36 (after she finished grad school & internships), it was very difficult to repay. She borrowed about $55k total.</p>

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<p>The ole Miss crowd is making voodoo dolls in your image…
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<p>And here I thought I was just shivering because it’s cold. LOL</p>

<p>Seriously, I just recommend Miss St. because the merit is so good there. Many of my son’s classmates are there, even though it’s OOS.</p>

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<p>Yes…I wonder how many schools that have “no loan,” “meet 100% need,” or “need blind” policies will be having to change their policies at some point.</p>

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<p>Well, I guess we all have our own opinion, but I don’t think I can be convinced that coming out of an elite college with only $40-50K of debt is not a bargain–when others are coming out with over $200K of debt. I am rather confused at why this discrepancy seems to be acceptable to most. There are many students who get absolutely no help from their parents–yet because of their parents income (or because some schools don’t assist internationals) are going to come out with tremendous loads of debt. Chances are, the kid with the $200K debt is going to come out and get the same job as the kid with $40K debt. That seems a bargain for a world class education. And most students have the ability to work over the summer to supplement their financial aid. Back in the good old days, we actually worked full time while going to school to pay for it, 2 jobs in the summer, or got our education paid for by serving in the military. Parents paying or taking out debt for it, financial aid—never heard of it! My parents paid for the first quarter of community college, and thought they were very generous.</p>

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<p>^^^</p>

<p>Well, the OP’s D isn’t applying to an “elite” college. Her first choice is to GW. It’s a very good school but not an elite school. </p>

<p>And, in actuality, there aren’t many students that graduate with $200k debt for undergrad - or anything close to that. (see below) For one thing, such a debt would require the parents to take on some of the debt or to at least co-sign. Frankly, few parents would ever co-sign for that much debt out of fear that they’d have to pay it back.</p>

<p>From below, you can see that most kids don’t have even $25k in debt at graduation from top schools. That makes sense, since repayment is difficult even for these graduates. We don’t know if the parents will be paying back some/all of this debt.</p>

<p>Avg Student Indebtedness at graduation , Private National University ( % borrowing )</p>

<p>$5,859 , Princeton ( 19% )
$9,871 , Caltech ( 39% )</p>

<p>$10,813 , Harvard ( 39% )
$11,108 , Rice ( 42% )
$12,297 , Yale ( 33% )
$13,926 , BYU ( 35% )
$14,148 , MIT ( 49% )</p>

<p>$15,724 , Stanford ( 40% )
$19,085 , U Penn ( 41% )
$19,358 , Boston College ( 52% )
$19,390 , Brown ( 44% )
$19,625 , Yeshiva ( 48% )
$19,839 , Vanderbilt ( 38% )
$19,908 , Northwestern ( 49% )</p>

<p>$20,095 , Brandeis ( 77% )
$20,126 , Dartmouth ( 52% )
$20,883 , SMU ( 38% )
$21,984 , Johns Hopkins ( 50% )
$23,181 , Emory ( 42% )
$23,333 , Georgetown ( 44% )
$23,687 , Tufts ( 40% )
$23,961 , Tulane ( 47% )
$24,205 , Duke ( 41% )
$24,500 , U Miami ( 56% )
$24,750 , Cornell ( 46% )
$24,827 , Wake Forest ( 38% )</p>

<p>$25,586 , Boston University ( 59% )
$27,121 , U Rochester ( 55% )
$27,455 , Syracuse ( 64% )
$27,562 , U Chicago ( 41% )
$27,692 , USC ( 51% )
$29,756 , Lehigh ( 58% )
$29,835 , Notre Dame ( 57% )</p>

<p>$30,375 , Rensselaer ( 70% )
$30,533 , Carnegie Mellon ( 50% )
$31,299 , George Washington ( 47% )
$31,300 , Fordham ( 62% )
$31,546 , Pepperdine ( 61% )
$34,850 , NYU ( 58% )</p>

<p>$37,175 , Worcester ( 76% )
$37,892 , Case Western ( 65% )</p>

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<p>Mom2, I wonder when they talk about “average student debt” how they specifically figure it. If they consider 2 kids, one whose parents paid most of the tuition and borrowed $5K, and the other whose parents didn’t, owing a total of $75K and call the 2 an average of $40K each, that seems disingenous. I honestly don’t know an accurate formula where you can not consider the kids whose parents paid most of the tuition, or kids who had most of a free FA or merit ride, with the kids who were actually paying for it and get an honest number. I can tell you, at my son’s school, they will lend “independent students” $57,500/year, and “dependent students” $33,000/yr. I guarantee you somebody is having to borrow that, and I would imagine many parents are willing to cosign for their kids even if they aren’t willing to pay for it. Because, to quote another CC member, we are “financial lunatics!” I know the internationals at his school get no school or federal aid, I have heard of people coming out with loads of debt. I have heard horror stories on different college application websites.</p>

<p>I don’t know enough about GW to make a statement of how much it would be worth paying for. But certainly a parent who is just making enough income to get by needs to not even attempt to pay for it. If it is important enough to the kid to go to that particular school, they need to decide whether they are willing to work or take on debt for themself.</p>

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<p>“I wonder when they talk about “average student debt” how they specifically figure it.”</p>

<p>Check the school’s Common Data Set, Section H. E.g., for GWU:

Can someone more knowledgeable confirm (or correct me) that H5a ($16,975) is considered part of financial aid from the school (loans in the student’s name) and the rest ($31,299 - $16,975) is part of a family’s EFC (loans in the parents’ names)?</p>

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<p>busdriver, why on earth would you use an insane example – $200K of debt for undergrad – to try to make your point? Just because some people are crazy enough to borrow that much money for college doesn’t mean that it’s a good idea to borrow 1/4 that amount. Geez. Just because that car over there is $200K, I should buy this one over here for $50K? I don’t think so.</p>

<p>I wouldn’t let my kid borrow so much; that’s simply too much.</p>

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<p>So…if I’m reading Post 136 properly (and I’m not fluent in Greek!), it looks like they aren’t including those who pay full-freight or get merit money into the calculations.</p>

<p>Therefore, if…</p>

<p>Student A borrows a total of $40k
Student B borrows a toatl of $20k
Student C borrows a total of $12k
Student D borrows nothing
Student E pays 1/2 and merit pays half</p>

<p>Then 60% took out loans and the average debt was: $24,000</p>

<p>Obviously, when dealing with larger numbers of students, you could have a FEW emerging with $150k in debt…but since so many of their peers borrow much less, the average debt number stays low. So, it’s possible to hear stories of kids with big debt for undergrad, but those kids are rare.</p>

<p>However, it’s more common to see such big debts for med students, law students, MBA students, and those getting grad degrees without being TAs, doing research, or having an employer pay.</p>

<p>Busdriver…at your child’s school is that big loan amount for undergrads or grad students or both.</p>

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<p>I really think that letting “dazzled-eyed students” borrow more than $40K total for undergrad is crazy. Even $40k is a lot unless you’re rather certain to get a highly paid job at graduation (engineer or something like that)</p>

<p>I’d really don’t like ANY debt for undergrad. </p>

<p>Even borrowing a total of $20k is going to be “pain in the hiney” for 10 years - repayment will be about $230 a month for 10 years…that’s a car payment! And, if the kid needs to actually have a real car payment, then it’s like paying for 2 cars at one time (one for 10 years!!! )</p>

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<p>When DH finished grad school, he had $55k in student loans (UG and grad). Payments were $900/mo. (several loans, did not consolidate because he had a good rate on some of the old ones). We finished paying them off in December 1997 – S1 and S2 were five and seven years old. Bought our first house a few months later, at age 37 and after 14 years of marriage. No parental help from either family with college expenses (we were both 0 EFC kids), down payments, gifts, etc. We had to save every penny ourselves.</p>

<p>We had FT two jobs (except when I was home three years with back-to-back babies), two old cars, rented a townhouse and huge day care bills. You’d better believe that student loans affect quality of life, esp. with a young family. We called it the mortgage on DH’s brain.</p>