<p>Agree, It is a challege not to allow the younger kid who has older academically successful siblings not to follow the same path even though we know the path is setting them up for problems. I am a big believer in the parental gut feeling with kids. If the kid does not seem ready for any number of reasons it saves alot of problems and money keeping them home for that year or guiding them in another direction. It is tough sometimes when the child does not want to consider any other option than to go away to college as all of their friends are. Katwkittens found the happy medium and provided son with the opportunity to find success on his terms. You are to be congratulated for one of the best alternatives I have heard yet.</p>
<p>Toledo–</p>
<p>Really glad to hear your daughter agrees with you that it is time to come home and start over. good luck to you all.</p>
<p>*mom2 and denice,</p>
<p>Understand that you are trying to be helpful, but perhaps in some cases its better to be honest than brutally honest. This is a tough time for Toledo. No need to kick someone when they are down. Just sayin’ *</p>
<p>I’ve set my kid up for failure once, and I took responsibility. I know it’s not pleasant. </p>
<p>My concern is that all the blame is going to go to the student, when in truth, she was ill-prepared for this situation. The adults should never have allowed this. To solely blame/punish her for what has gone wrong is ignoring one’s own role in the mess. </p>
<p>It appears that once she felt overwhelmed in her classes (because her classmates are higher achieving), she started giving up. That’s actually a common occurrence when kids are ill-matched academically to a school. It’s also common when a child is ADD.</p>
<p>My intent is to create a situation which will result in success - which is measured by having a student doing well in school. That really is the only success we’re all concerned about. Right?</p>
<p>That’s why I think it’s important for the mom to admit to the D that she (the mom) mistakenly let her go to a school that was beyond her academic level.<br>
*** It was a reach school. Her stats are definitely in the bottom 25%* **
I would say that is more than a reach school…that’s a “super reach” when your stats are in the bottom 25%. It’s like signing your C student up for AP Chem, AP Cal BC, and AP Physics.</p>
<p>I would tell the D that she, too, has to take some of the blame…either by not seeking help/tutoring when she first felt overwhelmed or by partying and not studying/doing homework. </p>
<p>I would try to enroll her in a school that is a better fit for her stats. I would tell her that if she fails at that point, it will be solely her fault. </p>
<p>I imagine that there are some schools that will still take her. Can anyone suggest any?</p>
<p>
You have got to be kidding! 25% of students are not attending “super-reaches”. My D went to a very competitive high school, which is probably why the college was happy to accept her. Her bottom 25% GPA is probably equivalent to the school’s bottom 35%. I do accept part of the blame, but only for sending a child who is immature to a party school. I didn’t realize how bad the partying was until we dropped her off for orientation. My rant, at the time, is posted somewhere on these boards. So I feel the school is also partly to blame for allowing freshmen to drink on campus. Many of the campus houses throw big nightly parties. They advertise with painted bed sheets welcoming the freshmen with catchy sayings. Parties spill out onto the front lawns. The partying is tempting, but D still has the take the brunt of the responsibility.</p>
<p>mom2collegekids – I think you are overstating the level of error with your view of reach schools. I don’t know what Toledo means by “stats in the bottom 25%” – but my daughter’s test scores were definitely in the bottom 25% of her college. The college was a reach but definitely not a “super” reach – my daughter realized within a few months that she was as capable as any student – and she ended up graduating within the top 5% of her class, with a 3.9+ GPA. </p>
<p>Now my daughter didn’t have the organizational challenges Toledo’s daughter has, but the problem with ADHD is that students can be very inconsistent. My son – who does fit that definition, and did also mess up in college – would have a pattern of doing exceptionally well or exceptionally poorly in any given class, and to add to the confusion, he tended to do better at the difficult stuff, and mess up the easy stuff. So as a parent there was part of me worrying about his ability to keep on top of everything, and part of me thinking that the more challenging, the better. </p>
<p>I actually think my son would have done well in a school with more structure-- in hindsight he did well in classes where there were a lot of homework, lab assignments, & quizzes – poorly in the type of class that relied on one or two papers being prepared over the course of the semester. He had chosen a school with less structure – which seemed appealing at the time because it seemed like it would be more flexible and forgiving of his habits of procrastination. His problem is that he had always been able to pull out in high school, but in college the expectations were much higher, and he fell too far behind to catch up. </p>
<p>Anyway, I always looked at the school choice as a learning experience – the problem was simply that, as a parent, it became a very expensive learning experience for me, given that I didn’t monitor things and would have been better off financially banking the money I spent on his tuition for year #2. But my point is – many kids do well in their reach schools, and many rise to the challenge. So Toledo may have made a mistake – but it seems to me that Toledo has also been very proactive in insisting on seeing the daughter’s mid-semester grade reports. We don’t know what type of conversations took place in their home before the decision was made to allow the daughter to try for her reach.</p>
<p>I do think in hindsight I can see personality traits that would have tipped me off that my son (who had very high stats, probably well in the top 25% for the schools he attended) – would stumble, whereas my lower stat daughter would excel – but they weren’t all that obvious when the kids were 17. Both of them were real human beings who presented a mixed bag of personality traits, some of which seemed to point to success in college, others which might have been reasons for parental concern. </p>
<p>So honestly, I don’t think that there should be much “blame” at all – BOTH parents and the child need to chalk this up as a learning experience and move on, focusing on what they need to do to forge a path for success in the future. Given that it is the daughter’s life and education, the d. really needs to be the one making ultimate choices, but parents need to provide support where necessary and place appropriate limits or conditions.</p>
<p>It’s not a “blame” thing, really. It’s just a situation that didn’t work out. The less “blame” the less “guilt,” the more getting on with things, the more openness and problem solving in the future. JMO. Blame is not really useful.</p>
<p>Hanna said:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>But, aren’t you a college counselor? I mean, what would be the use of having you around if the kid weren’t going to apply to college, anyway?</p>
<p>T, i am truly sorry it did not work out for your daughter but it won’t be the end of the world either. Many people took a less than straight path in life and sometimes it makes all the difference. Lessons were learned and the key is not to have the same mistakes next time. Don’t go too hard on her. She probably feels worse than you do.</p>
<p>
I think you’re reading a lot into some of the posts - I didn’t see any statements by the OP alluding to this (but maybe I missed it - this is a long thread).</p>
<p>Actually, I didn’t see anything in the OP’s posts attributing the problem to being in the bottom 25% of the admitted class, the ADD issues, or any inability to handle the classes. What I read was that the student was perhaps immature (but there are lots of kids who aren’t the most mature as they enter college - ADD or not), and that the student was admittedly (this is an important point) having a really ‘good time’ at the college, which I assume to be partying (but I could be incorrect on this but the OP repeatedly makes a reference to the party atmosphere of the school in the context of her D’s issues), and is skipping classes and not doing the work. The implication is that she’s not doing the work because of the possible partying/socializing - not because she couldn’t handle the work. If this is the case then the D has a possibility of turning it around if she’s willing to. She wouldn’t be the first student to have a great time for the first semester only to have reality hit home and turn it around from that point forward. Some don’t turn it around but some do. This is where the OP needs to determine exactly where her D’s head is at on this - understand exactly what the D was doing rather than attending class and studying, and then seeing if the D is really willing to turn it around or not. So far I don’t see enough info in the OP’s post that any of us really understand what’s going on and therefore none of us can really strongly suggest a solution.</p>
<p>calmom, you’re very much describing my son - he does better on ‘the difficult stuff’ which was confounding in deciding how much possible ADD was contributing to his poor work habits in high school.</p>
<p>When something was really important to him, he always seemed to manage to pull it together. Which makes me think that immaturity was the larger issue.</p>
<p>Toledo’s daughter’s problems may result somewhat from her ADD - it’s convenient and comforting to ‘medicalize’ the issue. But I agree with other posters that a greater contributing factor was her immaturity. </p>
<p>When my S left for college I stressed over and over again that he needed to take advantage of any resources available if he’s finding he’s having problems - whether that be study groups, peer tutoring or professor/TA help sessions. It sounds like Toledo’s daughter did none of this and was having a great deal of fun on her parent’s dime.</p>
<p>I’d say high school GPA wise my S is in the bottom 25% of his college engineering class. He had high SAT scores, which again reinforced my ‘gut’ feeling that his problems were more due to immaturity. Of course, I may have my very own thread come January, when I get his first semester grades.</p>
<p>There was surprise that there was freshman drinking on campus? </p>
<p>Seriously? Nevermind whether the school allows it or not. That parents would find this surprising is worrisome to me. It does further explain how the daughter (or others like her) could end up in a place where she did not belong.</p>
<p>OP: I’m so sorry to hear this. All last year I was in an agony of fear that D would end up leaving during her freshman year – different reasons, but it would have resulted in the anger and sadness that you described in your first post.</p>
<p>With a year’s hindsight, and FWIW, I wanted to share a bit about our experience; while different, you might see some points of similarity. My D simply was not ready to go to college. Bright, well-educated, articulate, academically gifted – yes. Ready? No. At least, not at that point. She painfully finished out freshman year, and is currently taking fall semester at our local community college. But in the last 6 months, I’ve seen an amazing transformation. She shed a boyfriend who was holding her back, got her driver’s license and first car, first real job, registered to vote. She’s not emotionally dependent on us like she was. She has found, to her surprise, that she misses her college and wants to go back. She understands what went wrong last year, and what she needs to do differently. She’ll be going back to her LAC in the spring, this time prepared to tackle college in a more mature way.</p>
<p>It may be that your D just needs a little more “growing up” time. Like everything with kids, it happens in spurts, and there’s precious little that you can do to speed it up. But it can happen.</p>
<p>^Nice to hear LasMa…more than anything it is about being ready. The kid who is ready will be able to take on the challenge regardless of what percentile they are in the accepted student profile.</p>
<p>(From post #150):
</p>
<p>I don’t think it’s an either/or situation – it is complex. Hindsight is always 20/20 – but that doesn’t mean that because one kid floundered another should be denied the opportunity.</p>
<p>If I had it all to do over again with my son… I wouldn’t tell him no. What I learned as parent from the experience was the importance of setting appropriate parental expectations and making them clear out the outset. What does the parent expect in terms of grades/progress reports? What will the consequences be if the expectations aren’t met?</p>
<p>I don’t mean that parents should micromanage … its just that my approach with my son was too hands off. I should have sat down with him, pointed out how much money I was putting into his education, and simply told him that funding was contingent on his completing all courses and maintaining a minimum GPA. I did implement my takeaway lesson with my daughter – as it happened, I didn’t need to do so with her. </p>
<p>I don’t think it’s bad parenting to allow our kids to take risks and fail from time to time. Failing is a learning experience as well, and part of growing up is to learn one’s own limits. Sometimes the only way to learn that is through actual experience. </p>
<p>So I actually think Toledo has pretty much done the right thing. It’s October – the problem has been recognized, acknowledged, and dealt with firmly and directly. Toledo’s daughter had the freedom and the parental faith she wanted… and she blew it, and she knows she bears responsibility for that. It’s not the end of the world… she’ll make a fresh start commuting from home. </p>
<p>The mistake is not in allowing a determined kid to attend the college they want; no one can foresee the future. The problem is when parents remain in denial at and after the time that the problems should be apparent (and I’m talking about myself here). So I actually think Toledo should be held up as a shining example of how to do things right. Good parenting isn’t a matter of preventing all problems from ever cropping up; its about handling things right when the problems do arise.</p>
<p>Thanks, calmom. We really emphasised that simply going to class was the easiest way to keep up. D also knows that Ds and Fs are not acceptable. She also knew that if she didn’t do well, she’d be coming home at the end of the semester. We never talked about the subject of withdrawing, but thanks to everyone’s comments here, it’s looking like it’s the best route at this point. She doesn’t want me coming to campus to “help”, so I’ve asked for the web site and password to see all her grades. I hope the profs have been using it.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>My parents are of the depression-era. Both grew up in poverty. My dad was *determined *to go to college and he did and believe me, there were lots of obstacles. </p>
<p>I think many of us expect our kids to go to college and the kids expect to go to college. I would not call my son “determined” at all. Son set out his criteria for schools. We chose a list of schools to visit. We visited. He applied. He was admiitted. We went on second visits. He chose a school and went…but none of that shows determination or really even a great desire to go to college…just taking the next, expected steps. I’m realizing that my dreams for him are not necessarily his own. (But his own involves unlimited video games and snack food, so it’s hard to figure out the next step.)</p>
<p>"So as a parent there was part of me worrying about his ability to keep on top of everything, and part of me thinking that the more challenging, the better. "</p>
<p>Yup, IIUC not uncommon with ADHD, esp 2E (Twice Exceptional - Gifted AND LD) Our DD never did well with “easier” work, especially if the “easier” work was not accompanied by less work. She needs intellectual challenge and is bored by repetition. Though if something is TOO hard, she can also avoid. Finding the “sweetspot” is not easy, but just always going for the easier, the safer, can do real harm to SOME of these kids.</p>
<p>"I actually think my son would have done well in a school with more structure-- in hindsight he did well in classes where there were a lot of homework, lab assignments, & quizzes – poorly in the type of class that relied on one or two papers being prepared over the course of the semester. He had chosen a school with less structure – which seemed appealing at the time because it seemed like it would be more flexible and forgiving of his habits of procrastination. "</p>
<p>One reason we are a little nervous whenever DD mentions interest in the Liberal Arts, with papers being central. She will be doing Architecture, and some of those studio projects will require project planning - we HOPE the studio teachers will be on the look out for kids who need help with those skills. As we get closer to enrollment, we will strategize on how to communicate those needs, balancing all the pro and anti helicopter rationales.</p>
<p>Thankfully DD is quite aware of her own issues, and even tends to push back against DW’s anxieties about medication.</p>
<p>^I actually think architecture is a pretty good major for ADHD kids. You meet with your prof regularly and it’s very obvious if you aren’t making progress on your design. More of an issue is the temptation to put all your effort into studio and forget that you also need to pass structures, history courses and the like.</p>
<p>Our son was a basic B student in mostly non-honors, non-AP classes who seldom studied in high school. We obviously had doubts about whether or not he would step it up in college. Thanks to advice here on cc, we did lay out specific expectations and consequences for not meeting those expectations in a written contract that he signed. We also sent him to an inexpensive school, so our financial downside was limited if he failed to perform. He doesn’t have any learning disabilities, however, and wasn’t immature. Just lazy and fun-loving, if I had to pick a label.</p>
<p>He is a sophomore this year, majoring in engineering and doing fine. Despite being at one of the top party schools in the country, he does what it takes to meet the contract stipulations because he likes his college and doesn’t want to come home. In retrospect, he didn’t ever get buy-in on why grades were important in high school. This is not an academically oriented kid and he would never work for a grade just for the joy of learning or to please a teacher/professor. For college, however, he has seen job postings that require a GPA of 3.0 or above so he is personally motivated to keep his GPA above a 3.0. That works for us and works for him.</p>
<p>On the withdrawal issue, I withdrew from all of my classes late one semester due to a family member illness. I therefore have five Ws on my transcript from that semester, but don’t remember ever being asked about them, even when applying to grad school or first jobs. People may assume all W’s could happen for a variety of non-academic reasons, so I would not worry too much about how that may look.</p>
<p>An LD in HS usually means the school is required to address your LD so that you can work to your potential. In university, it is only the ADA rules.</p>
<p>DD has an LD, had, I think double time on timed tests- SAT, AP, school exams etc. all through HS. At Berkeley we were surprised that her LD would only count as an LD if she was testing at 2 std dev below normal, not below her other areas, but below statistical normal. The only way a kid could be really bright and test at 2 std dev below the norm would be someone with a physical handicap who could not write the answers. A student with processing issues, etc, who needs extra time, not going to come in that low.</p>
<p>To show the numbers, assume DDs IQ is 150 and her area of impairment tests at 120, that is more than 2 std dev difference, hence the extra time. But if the university special ed dept wants 2 std dev below normal (100) that is so much lower (80?) that it would likely only happen in a kid with a physical impairment. Private schools can choose to go by HS IEP accommodations, so if that LD is critical, you must research the school before choosing. This does not apply to the OP whose DD never asked for help, but is pertinent to the general discussion.</p>
<p>Game may be over, but life is not. Best of luck in making plans for the next step forward.</p>