<p>I have decided to dip out of this debate, because I feel that plumazel and yohobroncos (especially the former) are letting personal biases color their ability to engage in a rigorous discussion. If they produce a shred of evidence to support their radical position, I will happily return. :)</p>
<p>i said i already conceded lol, but not a lot of statistical evidence has been provided though, but whats been said is enough to change my perspective</p>
<p>and what personal biases do i have?</p>
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<p>I apologize then. You seemed to be supporting the opposition in your most recent post.</p>
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<p>Perhaps I confused you with another poster. If so, I apologize again. I continue to believe that in plumazul’s case, though.</p>
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And I appreciate that.</p>
<p>Seriously, folks, this thread is dead. No convincing rebuttal has been provided by plumazul and it’s just turning into another pointless AA flamewar. Pick your ice cream and take it outside.</p>
<p>I’ve been having a lot of cookie dough ice cream lately, and it’s been pretty good. I feel more like cookies and cream, though.</p>
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<p>I do not approve. Ice cream is Satan’s food, and exercise is a much healthier alternative for satisfying one’s hunger. Silverturtle, do not get demotivated. Go to the gym and go pump some iron.</p>
<p>^ It’s not even real ice cream, though!</p>
<p>^ Those countless grams of sugar and lack of nutritious value are real though. Sugar is poison. You are only doing harm to yourself by ingesting such edibles.</p>
<p>Out of curiosity, why are all of you so convinced that race, by itself, tilts applicants’ probability of getting in? </p>
<p>As mentioned, income disparity between URM and whites should affect probability of admissions for URM: the SAT is known to favor higher income test takers and colleges could very well adjust for that.</p>
<p>There’s other psychological factors, too. URM, especially lower income minorities, could have more interesting/difficult backgrounds. This could shine in their essay. A good essay is a good reason to bump up the value of an applicant, and this has nothing to do with AA. It is simply an individual adcom’s bias–part of the “holistic” process. </p>
<p>Also, way more whites apply to elite colleges than URM (by definition). Thus, having “black” or “Hispanic” in the race category could simply intrigue adcoms. It’s an interesting factor in an application, just like an applicant who speaks Hebrew fluently or an applicant who lived in Chile for 5 years is interesting. This is also an adcom’s individual bias rather than AA.</p>
<p>^Mind you, this is differentiating race from, say, a legacy or recruited athlete. Legacies and athletes would have an outside influence (coach, interviewer) affecting the decision; They are not simply subject to an adcom’s preference. This is an important difference because an outside influence separates you from the randomness/game of luck that an individual adcom’s holistic decision would entail. A legacy/athlete have their own probability distributions for getting in.</p>
<p>Even if the Princeton study is meaningful (a simulation program needs preconceived statistical assumptions to simulate), then this is only one study. Most of the other data I’ve seen thrown around doesn’t adjust for the factors above. No rational person trusts their entire belief on an unreplicated simulation study. </p>
<p>I’m not providing evidence for anything. I’m not saying any of you wrong. I just want to know why you are all so SURE that URMs have AA affecting their decisions rather than these other factors. Is there really so much evidence to refute these possibilities?
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IMO, a wealthy, black student raised in a white adopted family in Bloomfield Hills (near Detroit where many URMs live) might not have any advantage.** Do you guys disagree? If so, why? If not, then how can you think that race alone is a factor in admissions decisions?</p>
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<p>The data suggest it, and the admissions officers confirm it.</p>
<p>^^^The data only consistently suggests that more blacks get in (percentage wise) than whites, and that these URM admits have lower stats. It does not differentiate between the factors I listed above. One simulation study shouldn’t convince you otherwise.</p>
<p>Which admission officers confirm that race alone matters? Every site I visited (including the MIT site posted on page 2) refers to a holistic consideration of the application in the CONTEXT of their life. A black student like I mentioned above has no context and no connection to their race.</p>
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<p>I don’t know their names, but they hosted information sessions at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT, Brown, Columbia, UPenn, Dartmouth, Cornell, UNC, UVA, and Amherst. The MIT quote that you shared confirms it as well.</p>
<p>I have never heard of that, so I call BS too. But I got an app in the mail before I even got my ACT results back sooooo…</p>
<p>The MIT quote clearly states that race consideration is holistic and considered in the context of the applicant. “Black” in the race category means nothing when a black student raised by a white family in a rich community.</p>
<p>When I was applying to colleges I went to plenty of info sessions myself. I don’t remember any elite colleges stating that race alone is individually considered. It would be terrible PR to say such a thing–you can’t tell a crowd of people that “Hispanics are favored simply for being Hispanic.” You’d turn off both white and Hispanic applicants.</p>
<p>Colleges are trying to enrich their community by having a wide array of backgrounds. By saying that colleges will be swayed by a single word in the race column, you imply that colleges are just accepting URM to bump the stats. I disagree. I think they care about their community, too. Which means they want the race factor to mean something holistically.</p>
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<p>Most of them did not say it voluntarily.</p>
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<p>Yes, with one of those contexts being racial.</p>
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<p>That surely would factor into the admissions officers’ consideration, but African American students are often disadvantaged in ways that being part of a rich, White family would not fix. And admissions officers know this.</p>
<p>Why has this thread not ended yet? The arguement was already agreed upon, so there is no need to continue belittling each other over such a minute topic.</p>
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<p>I don’t completely agree–but it’s irrelevant. This is your opinion, and that’s fine. But stats showing Hispanics have lower stats or that blacks have a higher admit rate shows nothing about Affirmative Action. </p>
<p>It’s understandable that someone who thinks black students are disadvantaged beyond just income and community reasons (ex. prejudice) and who sees the stat disparity in college admissions would ASSUME that there is Affirmative Action. They would probably interpret an adcom’s answer in an info session as implying AA as well. This doesn’t make AA real. </p>
<p>It is a reasonable assumption, nothing more. There’s no reason to be thoroughly convinced about things that have no statistical evidence.</p>
<p>@justtotalk: While plumazul may have posted it in an ill-conceived attempt to defend his(?) position, I actually think the Fryer study provides rather compelling evidence for the existence of color-based AA in the status quo. Given the apparent superiority of color-based AA practices, I would expect to see their use when diversity is a goal.</p>
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<p>Actually, the combination of lower stats for Hispanic and Africans Americans and their higher acceptance rates does provide compelling evidence for Affirmative Action.</p>
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<p>There was nothing to subjectively interpret in the admissions officers’ answers. I asked the questions very directly, and they (though sometimes uncomfortably) answered very clearly.</p>
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<p>There is evidence.</p>
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<p>Again, fine. I would actually HOPE that AA is used to diversify colleges. After all, there’s not many black students who live with adopted white families in rich communities, are there? So most students helped by AA would actually be diversifying the school effectively and helping expose others to an array of cultures.</p>
<p>That’s great.</p>
<p>That doesn’t mean that there’s any stats proving that AA solely based on race exists. There are plenty confounding variable which I mentioned above. These can’t be controlled in a real study, because no researcher has the right to tell applicants which school to apply to. Therefore, only simulations can be used. The assumptions these simulations run on may not portray reality.</p>