Myopic Ivy

Parents Forum
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<p>Is it me or is there a perpetual obsession with the Ivy League on CC. Everyone who has attended one seems as though they have to mention it in thier posts. Is the perception that this will add a bit of loftiness or added importance to what they have to add? Here's a kid who went to Yale.. check out his stats.</p>

<p>SAT- math/verbal 1050
EC's-binge drinking
Hobbies- Being arrested for... binge drinking.
Class rank 72 out of 80.
GPA- 2.85
Legacy- Yes, Father/Grandfather</p>

<p>Guess who?</p>

<p>Guess everyone who gets in isn't a shining monument to high brow intellectualism. Now I hear their poaching community college kids to add to thier "diversity".</p>

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<p>And you believe this???</p>

<p>And yes - I agree in part that there is somewhat of an obsession with the Ivy's here - but remember - the Ivy's are an athletic conference!!! - so maybe they compete in binge drinking as well.....................</p>

<p>And not everyone who does get in - stays in - uuummmmmmm</p>

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<p>Is it really myopia? Or just the right background for someone who wishes to be the president of the U.S.?</p>

<p>I think you're judging the board a little too harshly. If someone mentions a particular school, people with relevant experiences will chime in. That goes for ANY school, though, that's brought up - people come here to share their experiences and to ask questions. </p>

<p>If this were a forum on cars, I suppose the Corvette enthusiasts would be getting more than their fair share of e-time. </p>

<p>I really don't understand what this attack is all about. In fact, I think it's kind of funny because YOU brought up the ivy league.</p>

4

<p>I think it's safe to say that that post was a joke. Rule no. 1: don't believe everything you read here.</p>

<p>I agree with the lefthand--in that other thread, you were bemoaning at length that the Ivies don't give merit scholarships. I am wondering why you care.</p>

5

<p>Nightingale:</p>

<p>Not a supporter of the profiled Yalie, but bear in mind that the SAT was recentered and there's been grade inflation at both college and high school level since the Yalie in question was in school/college.</p>

<p>And yes, why are you concerned with who gets in/wants to get into an Ivy (not that they're interchangeable)?</p>

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<p>I think that it should not be surprising that there is a high degree of interest in selective colleges, including those of the Ivy League, on this web site. But I strongly disagree with your perception that there is an obsession. The parents and students who are interested enough in education to FIND this website are the same people who value education highly. Their (our) children tend to be high achievers, in both academics and in extracurricular activities. Who else would be interested in applying to selective colleges? It's a matter of self selection.</p>

<p>But I've read too many posts about 'hidden gems' types of colleges (many of which I've never heard of before) to buy into the idea that the parents on CC are only interested in a handful of schools. It's hard for me to see how anyone who has read the Parent Forum for any period of time could walk away with the idea that it's an "Ivy or Bust" mentality.</p>

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<p>Guess who?</p>

<p>Oh this is easy, it's George Bush, current POTUS.</p>

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<p>Just my view... but I think it's a disgrace that small LAC's with meager endowments are not opposed to merit aid whereas the Ivies are. I suppose, as one poster pointed out, it is simply a supply and demand issue. These colleges have many more applicants than slots, so WHY should they offer any merit aid. Well that's a good business model but let's remember colleges, especially well renowned ones, should be concerned with more than the bottom line. Many alumni give to these colleges so that what they consider to be a top flight educational opportunity will be delivered to America's youth at a reduced cost. Now with exception of the enrolled 10% of the student body, whose parents make less than 40k a year, that apparently is not being done. </p>

<p>In a previous post one poster said, "If your family income is between 80 and 150k a year you probably cannot afford send your child to an Ivy League school." Apparently no financial aid and definitely no merit aid is offered in that income strata? Why? </p>

<p>Whereas I concede that is a respectable income level it is by most accounts not enough to fund a 170k education even if done over time. Perhaps those families with a single child might be willing to take this on, but most families with multiple children cannot. Obviously there are exceptions. For instance those willing to make draconian sacrifices, folks willing to live below well thier means for decades and perhaps for the rest of thier adult lives. I just think rather than making indentured servants of the parents in that income range these Ivies could do more for applicants with parents in that income strata. I mean the point has been made that many kids from poor backgrounds fail at these places owed to the diminished state of thier inner city or rural schools, but, if you as a college feel you've help all the kids you can from poor backgrounds why not step up and share the endowment funds with the next income level or beyond.. the money is there. </p>

<p>I also feel that there is a great deal done to perpetuate the lofty status of these institutions on this site. This continued aggrandizing of these institutions leaves kids who are rejected or accepted without the financial means to attend heartbroken. I don't and won't have a dog in this fight neither myself or my kids had/will have those types of scores but I read yesterday about a girl crying for an entire weekend when her parents could not afford to send her. Although about 90% of applicants are rejected our President, a "C" student in prep school, was accepted. Go figure. Helmeted athletes with SAT scores 150 points below the mean are accepted. Go figure. If you believe what you read here many athletes are induced to attend by trumped up financial aid packages that amount to nothing more than athletic scholarships.</p>

<p>If these colleges were true to thier ideals why are legacy kids and athletes with mediocre scores accepted and 40% of the valedictorians who apply rejected? I just don't appreciate the perpetual image building and hypocrisy associated with these places and the toll it takes on kids and parents as well. Please no angry responses I am entitled to my opinion.</p>

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<p>And who was denied admission to his state university's MBA program but admitted to Harvard Business School?</p>

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<p>I will concede that my son is at an Ivy. My daughter went to an LaC which also did not give Merit Aid. Our income, for a few years, was high enough not to receive aid, but low enough to feel it. This year, if we are lucky, we may reach that 80,000 mark, but probably won't. So we're applying for FA for the first time with a chance of getting it. If we don't, we'll still be able to pay through savings.</p>

<p>We are those myopic people who lived below our means since we've had means. You think that makes us "indentured servants". I see it as the exact opposite. Not needing or wanting much in the way of material things is very freeing. It gives choices--choices in career decisions, choices in college for our kids. Not living below your means is a choice, too; I don't begrudge it for others, but I do believe it can limit other choices.</p>

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<p>There ain't such a thing as Harvard Business College. By the time GWB applied to HBS, he was considered a successful businessman. Plenty of people go to HBS after a stint in business. GWB was no exception.</p>

<p>According to the Harvard website,

[quote]
Even families with annual incomes well above $130,000 may qualify for scholarship aid.

[/quote]

<a href="http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/utilities/faq/financial_aid/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/utilities/faq/financial_aid/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>


</p>

<p>Nicely put.</p>

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<p>You are basing your assumptions on outdated information. Legacy admits are no longer accepted wholesale at the Ivies or any other top ranked school. If you check the official decision threads for RD and ED/EA admission on this site, you will see multiple legacies with high scores and high grades who were rejected from schools like Harvard, UVa, and Chicago. The plain fact is that, when schools admit a small percentage of applicants or have a self selecting pool, no one has a guarantee.</p>

<p>Legacy status can help a candidate: it's often the equivalent of putting a thumb on the scale. It can tip things in your favor when two candidates of equal worth are evaluated However, legacy is only one of a number of factors that can give an applicant an edge. It can be a plus to be a recruited football player, a Native American from a poor background, or someone applying from a state that is not well represented. It can especially help to be a developmental admit, which is a student whose parents gave large sums of money to a school. Still, there are no absolutes. I was recently speaking with a developmental admit officier and he indicated that, with things so competitive, developmental admits normally have to have scores and grades within a certain range. </p>

<p>I am not sure why you keep singling out the Ivies. The Ivies are not the only schools that give little merit money. Places like Amherst, Swarthmore, or Williams give virtually no merit aid. A school like the University of Chicago gives a very small number of scholarships. You virtually have to walk on water. And there are other schools like Brandeis that require the submission of the CSS profile for all merit aid applicants, even if they are not claiming financial need. It's not a cut and dried situation.</p>

<hr>

<p>PS. We are one of those "indentured servant" families who choose to live below our income. We are quite happy with what we have. It is a question of values.</p>

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<p>"And who was denied admission to his state university's MBA program but admitted to Harvard Business School?"</p>

<p>"1080 SAT"</p>

<p>What is the point of any of this? Even if the facts were true -the reported SAT score is incorrect and it was Texas LAW school- why is important to revisit the history of Yale's admission of blue blood families? Was the record of the patrician and intellectually gifted John Kerry better? </p>

<p>Aren't you getting tired of hollow and pointless bashing?</p>

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<p>You're correct! Amherst, Swarthmore, Williams,- Baby Ivies.. same ilk.</p>

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<p>Same ilk?</p>

<p>Why such resentment?</p>

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<p>Nightingale -</p>

<p>I think you need to let go of the bitterness toward the Ivy League. It's just not very practical for them to offer merit aid; at these schools pretty much the entire undergraduate study body consists of very smart, high-achieving kids. They are nearly all "merit" kids. Which ones would they or should they single out for merit aid? Well, since they are all bright, the ones they choose single out for aid are the lower income kids. And instead of "merit" they call it "need-based financial aid." And there you have it --> the current system. And far more than the 10% making less than 40K get aid. Those are just the ones that (at Harvard) get a FULL RIDE. More than half of the students get some form of need-based aid.</p>

<p>People on CC and in the population in general talk a lot about the top 10 or so schools for the same reason that there are big crowds around the Ferrari and Lamborghini exhibits at the Auto Show. It's where all the buzz is. But most people drive a Honda or Chevy instead of a Ferrari and still live perfectly happy, successful, and productive lives. It's the same with the colleges.</p>

<p>There are over 4000 colleges in the US. Whether the eight schools of the Ivy League do or don't give merit aid is an issue that shrinks to insignificance in the larger educational picture. If getting merit aid is an important factor in your child's college selection, focus on the ones that DO give it. There are plenty of fine schools that do.</p>

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<p>Is it me or is there a perpetual obsession with the Ivy League on CC.
both
I don't read the threads that are expressly about the Ivys- because I am not that interested in those schools ( except for titilating threads about Yalie is found to have financed education by selling drugs! news @ 11!)</p>

<p>But this is a website focused on helping students and their families with college selection, so it shouldn't be a surprise that students who are academically prepared as evidenced by say, the numbers of AP courses they may be taking, are interested in ivy league as well as other top schools.</p>

<p>It wouldn't make sense if a student who has maybe taken honors in freshman year, a couple APs sophmore year, and 3 or 4 APs junior and senior year, didn't want to look at schools which could provide him with the opportunities he had been working so hard to get ready for.( they start with the brand name schools-because we are big on brand names in US- as evidenced by some peoples fixation on them)</p>

<p>Some schools get a big name because of * their graduate programs* and are fairly well known. Other schools without graduate programs may not be as well known to the average student, but that does not mean that the opportunities they offer are fewer.</p>

<p>My daughter is about ready to graduate from a top college. We only knew about her school because it is in the same region- but applications have increased-greatly as have the median scores and stats since she first applied, as knowledge of the school has increased.</p>

<p>Just because I didn't know much about it before, didn't mean it wasn't a very good school- but it doesn't really have a grad program, it is in an area of the country with a smaller concentration of colleges( as compared to east coast), and it is very small(less than 1,400).</p>

<p>But several highly rated college guides have featured it lately, including US news, which has raised its profile among students who may have only been looking to New England schools.</p>

<p>Now that I am looking toward my 2nd daughter, I am grateful for sites like CC, because I am now aware of many other fine schools across the country, which may not be known well to the average student. Schools like Earlham, Macalester and College of Wooster. Warren Wilson, Beloit, Agnes Scott all schools which I never had really even heard of 5 years ago.
When my oldest daughters counselor suggested looking at Maclester and Carleton, I thought" my daughter is a good student! Why is she suggesting schools in frigging Minnesota!" Now of course I realize that they were very good suggestions ( except for of course that she is coldadverse- ironic since it snowed in Portland this morning).
The point I am trying to make is this- yes some may seem focused on schools whose name they have become familiar with over the years, because of graduate programs or sports teams- this is predictable, we are more comfortable with what is familar. But as students get deeper into the process and look at what criteria * that is original to them* to evaluate schools, they will broaden their search to consider schools outside of Ann Arbor- Northwestern and Duke, to maybe look at Northeastern, Madison and Asheville.</p>

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<p>In some cases, when we first land on this site, we are Ivy-obsessed. In my early posts I said I had decal fever. I now have a D at an Ivy - but no decal. As a result of my time on this site, precisely because there are so many people NOT focused on HYPSM, I read through Carleton's website the other day and thought, Aha!, focus on sciences and the natural world in particular, intelligent kids, sense of humor referred to everywhere, travel abroad, near enough to an interesting city, soccer at a level where S could perhaps plays, AHA! This might be the place for S! And I am a legacy at an Ivy and even so think that self-same Ivy might not be right for S even if he were accepted. It will be for S to make that choice if he's presented with the opportunity.</p>

<p>So give us credit for the capacity to take a journey. It happens.</p>

<p>Wait, I just realized I mentioned I went to an Ivy. Is it OK if I mentioned it to say I am not sure my kid should attend:)?</p>

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<p>Why confine the resentment to the Ivy League or LACs? Why doesn't Bill Gates give me some money? He's got plenty... and I don't. We DO live in a country with countless educational 'pricepoints' and options. I don't think anyone's life has ever been ruined because they didn't attend an ivy league school. </p>

<p>Just a guess: colleges have long term goals (one of which is to exist in the future) and spending down the endowment for the benefit of the students who were first in line when the spend-down began would leave the school penniless and unable to help anyone else. There must be laws governing endowments and how much money can/must be spent each year. I don't think you can set up a non profit and then not spend it, but maybe it's possible to spend it all. </p>

<p>There are tuition free schools - Olin engineering (at least in the beginning it was, don't know if that's still true), Cooper Union, Webb Institute, service academies and now the Yale School of Music (grad school). Grinnell College considered going tuition free, but decided against it.</p>