<p>never mind, I found a link that will show all the cutoff scores.
go here:
<a href="http://hseagle.sas.edu.sg/hscounseling/Tests/NMSCindex.htm%5B/url%5D">http://hseagle.sas.edu.sg/hscounseling/Tests/NMSCindex.htm</a></p>
<p>good luck everyone!</p>
<p>If I live in MD, but my school is in MA, what score do I compare with? In order to be a semi finalist, all you have to do is reach that cutoff score?</p>
<p>If the link above is correct, MA & MD have the same cut-off score for NMSF, 222. <a href="http://hseagle.sas.edu.sg/hscounsel...s/NMSCindex.htm%5B/url%5D">http://hseagle.sas.edu.sg/hscounsel...s/NMSCindex.htm</a></p>
<p>"people who said the Maryland cutoff went up were lying"</p>
<p>who cares? at 222, it's high enough.</p>
<p>It's too bad the NMSC test is not really a "national test", but really a regional one. In Imperial China, at least the Chinese had the sense if they were going to have national examinations to determine your future status in their society, it was truly a national test and everybody had the same chance. I believe the NMSC PSAT is an anachronism. The private schools and the big study prep companies have figured out how to beat the test. There used to be a time, probably before most of the current students were born, when the distribution of NM scholars was fairly evenly distributed among all the high schools, public and private. There are states now where the distribution is so lopsided there no NM from public schools. Yes. There are also places that the numbers are so lopsided, like Hawaii, that two private schools with 700 seniors combined took 73% of all the NM in the state of 15,000+ seniors. There are public high schools that have zero NM even though they are "good" schools and they are not in impoverished neighborhoods. It makes you wonder about the validity, if not fairness, of the test and the process to determine NM. Why is the PSAT test used instead of the SAT? Why would you use the "practice" test for the SAT to determine NM status? The NM thing is BIG BUSINESS, a monopoly; there is no incentive for them to change. There are many parents who correctly believe that the only chance for their children to get NM, they have to send them to private schools..which is basically true in Hawaii. I know there are many really good public high schools in the continental US where they produce many NM students, however, the playing field is obviously not equal if it takes a 222 in one state and a 203 or 204 in another to qualify.</p>
<p>Actually, I honestly think my son would have gotten the same scores whether he stayed in public school (where he was K-8th grades) or in the private school he transferred to in HS; he's always done exceptionally well in standardized tests, scoring off the charts from preschool on. The real reason he transferred was he kept losing all his friends & peers to private school (there is a noticable "brain drain" from public to private, especially as the kids get to higher grades). The other thing is his TEACHERS were threatened when he asked them questions they couldn't answer--instead of welcoming inquiry, they shut him out & down. Teen years are tough enough without having your teachers unwilling to consider new perspectives. We knew we had to find him an environment where intellectual curiousity was welcomed & we have, though it has forced us to pay private school tuition.</p>
<p>Yes, pineapple, the NM system could definitely use improving, but would it be fairer if the bar was set at 220 & it happened to exclude nearly everyone except the folks in MA, NJ, NY? It is big business. The only "competition" is the ACT, but it's not as widely used & offers no scholarship. Heck, for many reasons, the playing field has never been level or equal; there are biases in the tests, which have been shown in many studies. In any case, there are many schools that recognize the tests really are only one part of a student's application & some schools that don't even consider or require testing. Even when I was in HS 30+ years ago, the distribution of NMSF was not very even in HI. As expected, there were many more NMSFs in the same 2 "elite" privates & the publics of wealthier communities. Are other regions of the country all that different?</p>
<p>It is also difficult & not particularly fair to compare grades at different instutitions--iwhat is an "A" worth & how can it be compared at different HS? Colleges always have to grapple with this, so they throw in rank, "standardized tests," recs, ECs, essays, & whatever they can to help give a "better picture" of these kids. The admissions process still has a lot of unfairness in it, but it's still what we're all stuck with trying to get our kids through in one piece.</p>
<p>Does anyone have a link for the pdf released today. containing the names of the semifinalists?</p>
<p>As a new poster, you all are relieving some of my anxiety, but I'm still looking for reassurance. I knew from my score that I'd make Semi-Finalist status [which I eventually did], so I took the SAT in June. To make a long story short, I was REALLY sick [had to step out to barf - literally] but stupidly took it anyway and bombed with a 2020. Thus my worry! Is this low enough that I should take the SAT again? Will NMSQT even look at the second score if I take it again? My grades and principal's recognition will be fine, but I'm concerned that that SAT score will be too low to make Finalist. I'm in football and couldn't retake it til November, but is it worth it? HELP!!!</p>
<p>I would take it again. 2020 is nowhere NEAR bombing, but you could almost definetly do better when you're healthier.</p>
<p>HiMom,I agree with almost everything you stated. Hawaii is a strange place to be in many ways. I've been watching the NM thing for many years in Hawaii. I think if you went back to 1970 or so, you would find what I stated about NM distribution among private and public schools to be true, that the distribution was more equitable. Private schools always had more than their fair share, but not the total lopsidedness that now exists. In 1971 your son's school had 5 NM out of about 120 students. Today they have 34 out of 240 seniors or so, increasing by 9, close to half of all the qualifiers in the state of Hawaii. The "other" school had 23 out of 450 seniors, same as last year. The "other" school would have had far less if the cutoff hadn't dropped 2 points this year to 214. There is unquestionalbly a "brain drain" to the private schools in Hawaii, but what has happened here is no different to what has occurred in many places on the Mainland. You stated your son might have made the cutoff anyway if he stayed in public school. Maybe. If you have been following your son's school's history of their NM/SATstudy program from its inception, you might change your mind about that assessment. Every qualifier from your son's school takes away an award from somebody else because of NM quota for each state. This is what is wrong about local quotas versus a single national cutoff. Let your son compete with the kids from other private schools on a national basis. The "other" school's student profile is not much different than your son's, yet their ratio to NM is about a third as high. The NM can be coached and studied for, and your son's school probably has one of the best study programs in the country as testified by this year's results. Also, if you are parent that thinks your kid has a chance for NM you will probably want to up his odds by sending him there. But you must factor in that they are competing in a state that has one of the worst SAT averages in the country, so we have this oddball distribution like last year where the cutoff was 216 for Hawaii, and the cutoffs for something like 44 of the other states was below or equal to Hawaii. There are places that have zero NM from public schools. Hawaii is getting closer to that every year. This seems counter to my impression of what NM is all about.</p>
<p>Say if a person scores a 230 but the cutoff score for that state is 234, does that mean he won't even be commended?</p>
<p>no, he'll be commended with a 230 because the commended cutoff was 202 (for this year, anyway) and it applies nationwide. unlike semifinalist status, different cutoffs on a statewide basis do not exist.</p>
<p>Since my score was exactly a 202 and I took it in my junior year, will I be notified that I'm commended? And also, where did you find out the national commended score was? What exactly is the cutoff score? i.e. to be a finalist?</p>
<p>Pineapple, I don't think my son was "coached" for the PSAT test, as he was scoring very high on standardized tests (including the SAT admiinistered as part of the Johns Hopkins program) in 7th & 8th grades, even BEFORE he started private school. The school does offer courses students can take to prepare for the PSAT, but son declined to take them because he didn't see the point & felt he could better spend his time & our money elsewhere. His score actually dropped in the PSAT from his sophomore year to his junior year (he had loved the analogies they dropped from the tests, as vocabulary is a great strength since he's a voracious reader).</p>
<p>Hawaii has a huge immigrant population, including immigrants from many countries with so many languages that some elementary schools have 40+ native languages the teachers have to work with. It makes learning a LOT more challenging, but HI is subject to the same "no child left behind" legislation as the rest of the nation.</p>
<p>I don't see that folks who choose to send their kids to private schools should be penalized for that decision by raising standards for them. Heck, they are already penalized by having a much lower class rank than they would have if they stayed in public school as well as paying taxes to support public schools + tuition for private schools, as well as tougher grading curves.</p>
<p>While I agree that the NM system is not the greatest, I don't agree that your suggested improvements would really make anything better. The opportunities available on the East Coast are vastly different from what we have available in the middle of the Pacific Ocean or folks in rural settings in many parts ot he country. How should these factors be taken into consideration? How many languages are spoken in public schools in your state? How should that be factored in?</p>
<p>Yep, life sometimes isn't fair, but we work with it the best we can with what we have.</p>
<p>HiMom, if your son went to that private school after ninth grade, then you could say he probably would have made it anyway. I would say he is the exception rather than the rule at that school. I think you have to factor what it means just being at that school and the emphasis they put onthe NM. The statistics strongly suggest that those students at that school have an advantage over students attending other schools, private or public. Source: xxxx Guide to Private High Schools...you will find your son's school has a slightly lower SAT average than the "other" one ..hard to believe, but true. Yet, they have three times the ratio of NM. They are obviously doing something right with the NM test. You son's school maybe is second to none, east or west coast, in producing NM qualifiers. The students attending that school are probably not at a disadvantage economically or scholastically with any of the kids attending the northeast private schools. I suspect students at your son's school probably do not match the average ethnic or income profile of the average Hawaiian high schooler with its high immigrant profile, so why should someone in Connecticut or New Jersey have to get a 220 or 221 to get NM and someone in an affluent Hawaii private school get a 214? If you're going to make it a regional contest why is it named "National Merit" rather than "State of Hawaii Merit". It doesn't seem strange to you that 34 of 78 NM for Hawaii are at your son's tiny school? That is why the system isn't going to change, because parents and institutions are exploiting the system for whatever they are getting out of it. I applaud the University of California's Admissions Council for taking the actions they did earlier this year with regards to using the NM results as a criteria for admission. They are a voice in the wilderness, but that is the only way that sometimes unfair things change. The methodology of using a result of a single test score is very statistically questionable to start with. For those people who score high on these types of standardized tests with a time constraint, the probability of scoring lower on the next time they take it is something like 58% according to ETS. So what does that say about using a single score as a determining factor in qualifying for NM? When you combine this with a moving target year to year and state to state, it turns the NM into a crapshoot. I think there are a lot of students who were "commended" but if they got to take the test again, might make it, and a lot of folks who qualified might get lower scores the next time around and miss the cutoff. Realizing the NM process is unfair and not doing anything about it makes you part of the problem and perpetuates its inequity. The end does not justify the means. If your son scored a 213 and not made the cut this year you might feel a little different about the NM and "work with it the best we can" attitude. It is more like a lottery than a true test.</p>
<p>It is really about opportunity. Someone from the boonies of Arkansas who does not have the same educational opportunity as people who go to Exeter, Andover, etc. are at a disadvantage.</p>
<p>Also, say the score for the nation was 225 for National Merit. I can tell you that there will not be that many people from Arkansas who will get this cutoff. So, the state would be shown in a bad light and no state wants to be shown in a bad light.</p>
<p>It is about educational opportunity.</p>
<p>Actually, pineapple, none of us really know what obstacles others in other parts of the country deal with & how they get to wherever they are. What is anyone at CC doing to change the way NM is administered? Actually, I'd say that my son is NOT actually that much of an exception. When he entered in 9th grade, he was one of 6 kids entering from his public middle school. Out of those six, both he & another girl were NMSF & at least one other of the six was commended. Another student who was at his public elementary school & transferred in 6th grade is also a NMSF. It is pretty well-recognized that it's much harder to enter the school (& many private schools) in the upper grades & it's a pretty competitive process. Is the school wrong to chose the most promising students that they think will add most to the reputation of the school? Is it any different from the college (or other) admissions process? By the way, for what it's worth, the private school my kids attend does everything it can to meet full financial need (as demonstrated by a form & process like Profile or FAFSA). There are kids admitted every year with guaranteed 4-year HS scholarships at the school, including full tuition, all meals & books. One of these scholarship recipients was one of the 6 who entered in 9th grade with my son from his public school, another scholarship recipient in a previous year was a friend's daughter who was a child of a single parent, also entering in 9th grade.
I have never said that the NMSF is anything but a lottery, as are many aspects of the college admissions process (from all I've read & heard so far).</p>
<p>I don't find your suggestion to just have one national cut-off score to be any great improvement over the current system. I don't see why my kids' school should be faulted or penalized for producing a lot of NMSFs--aren't schools supposed to help our kids be all they can be? The colleges students apply to will know all the scores & stats & info requested that the candidates reveal & can draw their own conclusions. As has been said on other threads, NMSF & NMF is not all that highly regarded at many of the higher tier schools, as they recognize it as just one number & one test.</p>
<p>Should there be different pools & cut-off scores based on what educational opportunites are available to each student? How do we measure those? What about different pools for kids whose first language is not English?</p>
<p>My children were educated in the public school system from K-8th grades, where there were many immigrants & there ARE a large number of immigrants at the private school they currently attend (believe it or not). These do have an effect on the educational experiences of each individual--their lives are enriched by it, but it also affects some curriculum decisions, especially in public schools. There are so many intangibles.</p>
<p>pineapple- nothing in life is perfect, get over it. just how many times should they administer the psat to make it fair for your child? i live in a poor, rural area in nys and my DS is a semifinalist this year, with a higher cut-off than HI. NOT because he goes to an elite private school(he doesn't), but because HE worked and self-studied hard and performed well on his test day.<br>
kids aren't going to be handed things in 'real life' because a test or interview may not be 100% fair all the time to all the people--step up to the plate, do your best. if that doesn't quite make it then try harder the next time an opportunity presents itself!!
NMC doesn't owe you a make up test or private school. thousands of semifinalists are from PUBLIC schools that are far from terrific. what are you and your child doing to compensate??</p>
<p>Take a look at the position that the University of California Admissions Council took on the NM this May. Use Google to find the thread. I will use Wahington DC as a case in point. They had no NM qualifiers a year or two ago who atttended a public school, and they had a very high cutoff,something like 220, presumably since they had lots of kids attending private schools in the area. (There is an interesting internet article on this....something like " National Merit Bars Set Higher in Different States..) They had many students who would have made NM from DC public schools if the target wasn't so high for DC. All those public school kids, who could probably use the scholarships more than the average private school kid, got cut out because the system arbitrarily makes cutoffs based on region. Washington just happens to have of private schools and they also happen to have lots of minority kids attending public school..just like Hawaii. momof3teens, I give your son lots of credit. Good job. I feel sorry for all the kids with scores nationally who had scores higher than 214 in Hawaii, but are going to get nothing but a "commended letter". Life is not fair, but why make it unfairer? I am reiterating the position that NM cutoffs should not be based on a single test, and certainly not based on regional handicapping. The University of California system also takes this position. I think they should just dump the PSAT and use the best SAT score your kid gets by junior year. HiMom, you miss the point. I do not believe I ever suggested they have different cutoffs based on educational opportunities; on the contrary I have suggested they do use a single national cutoff and let the chips lie where they fall. Actually, having a different cutoff for private and public schools might be a very good idea, that is fairer than the current system. This might mean of course, your son's school might have to give up more than half of its 34 qualifiers if compared to the northeast private schools scores.</p>
<p>UC schools don't deal with National Merit because they feel that it's not fair for minority groups. </p>
<p>And how could National Merit be based on more than one test? In the end, no matter how many qualifiers you add or how level you make the playing field so to speak, it boils down to students who recieve the award and students who don't. In many cases, (generally speaking, not just about Nat'l Merit), students who don't recieve an award are just as qualified as those who do. se la vie.</p>