<p>Sooner. 45% of NM in California go to Asians. NM is extremely unfair to blacks and other minority groups other than Asians. Did you read the California article?</p>
<p>Sooner. I am saying that there is something wrong with a system that has 14% of a senior class at a single school private school in Hawaii qualifying for NM. What's wrong with taking a particular test several times; it's done with the SAT. You only took the SAT once? Colleges are willing to look at multiple tests results, because they know people can have a bad day and scores vary..ETS knows that. Yet we ignore those facts when they do this for the NM.
HiMom, I am not saying that this institution shouldn't be milking the system for all its worth, which it has done. They've cracked the code and are opportunists. I am saying there is something wrong with a process that allows something like this to happen where one school with 247 or so seniors takes 34 NM out of 78 for the entire state of 12,000 to 15,000 seniors. You don't see anything wrong with that?<br>
You don't think it is unfair that some kid from Conn, Del, Md,NH, or NY public school with a score of better than 214 has no chance for a NM scholarship. Yet all these kids from your son's private school are qualifiers in a state that has one of the lowest SAT averages in the country. Doesn't seem fair to me. How to you explain to some kid in public school in DC that even though he lives in a poor area and has a higher score than some affuent kid in a Hawaii private school that gets 214, that he doesn't qualify because that's just the way it is? Maybe I come from a different generation that believes you can fight unfairness. The NM thing is Big Business.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It's too bad the NMSC test is not really a "national test", but really a regional one. In Imperial China, at least the Chinese had the sense if they were going to have national examinations to determine your future status in their society, it was truly a national test and everybody had the same chance. I believe the NMSC PSAT is an anachronism. The private schools and the big study prep companies have figured out how to beat the test. There used to be a time, probably before most of the current students were born, when the distribution of NM scholars was fairly evenly distributed among all the high schools, public and private. There are states now where the distribution is so lopsided there no NM from public schools. Yes. There are also places that the numbers are so lopsided, like Hawaii, that two private schools with 700 seniors combined took 73% of all the NM in the state of 15,000+ seniors. There are public high schools that have zero NM even though they are "good" schools and they are not in impoverished neighborhoods. It makes you wonder about the validity, if not fairness, of the test and the process to determine NM. Why is the PSAT test used instead of the SAT? Why would you use the "practice" test for the SAT to determine NM status? The NM thing is BIG BUSINESS, a monopoly; there is no incentive for them to change. There are many parents who correctly believe that the only chance for their children to get NM, they have to send them to private schools..which is basically true in Hawaii. I know there are many really good public high schools in the continental US where they produce many NM students, however, the playing field is obviously not equal if it takes a 222 in one state and a 203 or 204 in another to qualify.
[/quote]
pineapple~I am in total agreement with you. I think it is ridiculous that NM is portrayed as a "national" competition when in actuality, it is a STATE competition with a handicap (as in golf). I hope that in the future, either measures are taken to correct this situation or more schools question its value. </p>
<p>My son was a commended student in our state last year, having missed the cutoff by two points. Interestingly, those students who were members of either the class that came before his or the one that came after his MADE NMSF with his exact score. Both he and I found that amusing* lol*. I am not speaking from sour grapes, though, as my son had a very successful application process last year. My comments were simply to express the idea that whatever side my son had ended up on, I would still feel like the whole thing was "rigged" in a way.</p>
<p>momofthreeteens~
I'm sorry, but your comment to pineapple wasn't very polite or sensitive. I mean, one can "get over it"...we all must eventually, but that doesn't address the problem of the inherent unfairness of the NM system. It is O.K. to question these things or to express the opinion that it is not fair. Most likely there will NEVER be a "fair" way to conduct the NM competition, but it's certainly worth examining. ~berurah</p>
<p>my comment wasn't meant to be polite or sensitive. ... there are hundreds, if not thousands, of competitions that my S and D do not qualify for, instead of complaining about how unfair the system is, go out and find something you or your child DOES qualify for.</p>
<p>thank-you, berurah. I have 6 posts in this forum, and compared to momof3teens or HiMom; this seems rather insignificant. If I were you berurah, I'd be madder than hell at this ridiculous situation. I know this will not make you feel any better, but there is a very good article from a newpaper on internet about how making the NM for one particular student dramatically changed this person's life. This story is a repetition of what has probably happened countless times. This person made NM by a single point in his state ( not very uncommon given the number taking the test and the small number selected ). He is attending a well-known university with a full ride plus expenses because that particular school is one of those schools that has this policy towards NM semifinalists. (obviously, it was definitely not U. of California). The article mentions that he would not have qualified if his state's cutoff hadn't gone down from the year before...sort of like Hawaii, 214 this year, 216 last year, 218 in 2001. I noticed some state's cutoffs went up this year. Contrary to momof3teens, and I don't know what her problem is, you do have a legitimate gripe with this system that rewards people in private schools in states that have lower cutoffs, or trying to hit a moving target cutoff. Your son will do fine, I'm sure, even without a NM scholarship. Don't let the bastards get you down. One of my points is that change can only be effected when enough people get fed up and do something to address inequities, whether it is civil rights or a single test to determine scholarships. The PSAT and SAT have been changed several times in the last 35 years; nothing is set in concrete. The tests have been specifically altered to change demographic results from the tests. Lawsuits have been successfully filed to force adding the writing section to balance out the previous statistical differential between males and females. The old test was changed because it was successfully argued that at the high end, there are more males that happen to be FASTER than the number of females. This normally would be an insignificant factor, but when you are looking at identifying the top 1/2 percent of anything, it can be a big factor. Boys historically have had higher math scores than females for whatever reason, and girls have historically had better writing scores, for whatever reason. The point is that change was made in response to those questions, even to the point that it took a lawsuit to force NM to fix it. If you don't address unfairness, you have to be content with what they give you like momof3teens, or just be content you happened to benefit from the unfair system, like HiMom. The corporations that sponsor NM obviously don't look that closely at how NM distributes their donations... and maybey the ones that don't sponsor NM and give their money through other means are doing so for the reasons I talked about. If I were giving the money out I'd be wondering about 57 kids at two private schools totalling 700 seniors costing $12,000 or more per year in tutition, taking 73% of the quota allotted to Hawaii's 15,000 kids. I'd also be wondering about why these people need the $2500 scholarships. It's not just Hawaii. It's Washington DC, its Connecticut, NH, etc. I'd be embarrassed by those numbers. The protests will not come from the parents of those private school kids or those institutions because they benefit directly from the inquities. It is against their own self-interest to effect change. You have a legitimate gripe as well as the thousands of other parents and children who have affected by this system. There are many educators who are aware of the inequities being perpetuated by this system.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If I were you berurah, I'd be madder than hell at this ridiculous situation.
[/quote]
pineapple~</p>
<p>In my son's particular case, the effect was minimal. He is a very happy freshman at Duke this year. He was also accepted to JHU with its highest merit award, the Hodson Scholarship, and to UPenn with a special invitation into the elite Vagelos Program in the Molecular Life Sciences, a program that only enrolls 20 incoming freshmen each year. He also received large merit scholarships from the University of Miami and the University of Kansas, and an acceptance into the University of Michigan Honors Program. So in our particular case, there really are no sour grapes, just an awareness of what you say is totally true. If momof3teens should take the time to peruse all of my posts from last year, she would find that there was not ONE mention of this situation. We had bigger issues last year.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, it WOULD have been nice to have had all of the schools which offer great packages to NMFs as safeties! :)</p>
<p>I, too, am a believer in the power of the masses (and in some cases, the individual) to battle unfairness. To me, it is not a good answer to tolerate the status quo just because it exists. </p>
<p>Though it is too late for my son and despite the fact that he fared very well with his applications last year despite "only" having commended status, I do think this whole NM thing needs to be revised.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>I believe that revision will come through colleges/universities opting out. There is no reason for CB or National Merit Scholarship Foundation to modify anything......the cash cow just keeps giving and giving to them. This is a large business and folks who think that non profit means doesn't make money......toothfairy, santa claus and easter bunnies. This NM cannot end soon enough for me.</p>
<p>
[quote]
This NM cannot end soon enough for me.
[/quote]
hazmat~
The way things stand now, I'd have to agree. ~berurah</p>
<p>Welcome back, berurah!
I agree that we have no perfect educational system, no perfect scholarship system, and no perfect financial aid system. But for now, we must make do with what we have. Glad your son is happy at Duke!</p>
<p>momof3teens-
Welcome to CC. you appear to be a relatively new poster. I would encourage you to read the rules/policies of CC. Politeness, sensitivity and common courtesy is not only encouraged, it is expected. I am sure you have much to contribute to CC. It is best to do it in a format that will not potentially digress to a series of verbal duels. Those of us that have been on CC for a while have seen conversations deteriorate into verbal slug-fests, that serve no one any good. Harsh comments sent berurah off this list for quite some time, and it would be a shame to see this happen again. Please.. it is ok to agree to disagree-- it's just more appropriate to speak in the same fashion that you'd like to be spoken to.</p>
<p>pineapple--Welcome to America. National Merit rewards indiviual achievement. High achievers, who by and large are the best educated, will have the best real SATs, will go the best colleges, law schools and medical schools. You get the idea.</p>
<p>And yes. Our parents have sought out the best schools, some times private, sometimes special public and somes best school district.Many of us come from "privileged" backgrounds but many more just came from homes where parents denied themselves hard earned comforts so their children could achieve what they hadn't.</p>
<p>Is it unfair. To you as an individual. Probebly yes. In that the range of your personal choices has beeen weighted by factors you were to young to control. But, neverthess, we all play the cards we're dealt with, and it's the playingof those cards that determines our lives.</p>
<p>does anyone know what it is for this year's seniors?</p>
<p>lkc state by state qualifying scores are posted and linked earlier on this thread. To all in general, and Pineapple in particular, I just have to toss this in: is anyone here aware of a special boarding school cutoff? I have heard/seen this mentioned several times, including by my daughter's (boarding school) GC, that it exists to address the assumed advantages of a boarding school education, and that it is usually equal to the highest state cutoff(s). I don't know if this rumored pool applies just to private schools that enroll boarders, to just the boarders attending private schools, or to all private schools (I highly doubt the latter) and I can't find any mention of it on the NM or PSAT sites. But if it exists, and if it applies to Hawaiian private schools....well it would certainly make the performance of the senior class being discussed here that much more extraordinary. However, judging by the scores mentioned in earlier posts, it sounds as if Hawaiian private school students have been pooled with public school students. </p>
<p>Perhaps my daughter, who qualified, will benefit from this convoluted program, and we will be grateful if so, but we have no illusions about what is actually measured by any standardized test.</p>
<p><<45% of NM in California go to Asians. NM is extremely unfair to blacks and other minority groups other than Asians.>></p>
<p>I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. While I will not get into the debate concerning geographic equality, to argue that the test is "discrimanatory" (which is what you seem to imply... though I don't want to put words into your mouth) doesn't seem accurate. The National Merit Scholarship is awarded based on standardized test scores. No minority individual will be denied this scholarship simply because they are a minority. In fact, this scholarship is about as fair as the come; because it is based on results alone. (I don't want to get into whether or not the SAT accurately measures ability here...) However, the PSAT does not claim to be fair. It is simply one tool. Now, perhaps minorities have less means with which to prepare for the test, but then again, there are many impoverished whites as well. The issue of poverty cannot be solved by the National Merit Board. I think that the NMS is a nice way of rewarding bright young students, and it is by no means a perfect system, but it does provide aid to those who demonstrate they have exceptional ability. Just my two cents. I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if I am repeating what other people have said.</p>
<p>Sorry, it's been a period of time since I last entered anything on this discussion. My basic point in all the replies and counter-replies with HiMom and some of the others is that the National Merit test has really outlived it's usefullness. That is the bottom line. I was trying to build a statistical basis for my case and opinion. I've been following the NM for nearly 35 years. This opinion is also shared by the University of California Admissions Board. The domination by private schools of the total awards, especially in the Northeast, has gotten ridiculous. The huge differential in qualifying scores between South Dakota ( just one example) and Washington DC immediately bring to mind that the competition is not "National", but "State". Like Margaret Meade, I will use a local example, in this case, an island state, to illustrate what I believe to be a strong example. HiMom's state, Hawaii, in 1971 had 5 NM semifinalists from this one private school in Hawaii, which we shall not name, but you find on the internet since they have published all their semifinalists on their website, 34 this year. They had 5 semifinalists out of about 120 seniors 35 years ago. This was a very high percentage back then. The average public school had approximately 2 semifinalists for every class, approximately one-half to one percent of every class. This distribution was still relatively even, with a higher percentage going to private schools, ostensibly since they attracted the brighter students, but this was not unusual since many parents in Hawaii will try to send their children to private schools if they could afford it, 20%, if I am not mistaken, a very high percentage not attending public schools. In 1993 that school had 33 semifinalists, almost half of the entire state's quota. They had a coaching program at the school which they have methodically instituted. The NM is their "thing"; it is very big at their school, very big. This year that school had 34 NM semifinalists, and even if their class is 220 or so now compared to 120 35 years ago, it is a huge percentage, something like 14% of their class. If you take another private school in Hawaii, they had 23 NM semifinalists this year, but they have a much bigger population, 420 or so, or roughly 5% of their population NM. Between the two schools they have 57 out of the 78 in the whole State which includes something like 16 public high schools and another half-dozen private schools. 73%. Factor in that Hawaii has one of the lowest SAT averages of all the states yet one of the highest cutoffs for NM, although they did drop two points this year. Simply stated 3/4 of the NM semifinalists in Hawaii will go to kids whose parents are spending 13-15 thousand dollars a year to send them to private school. One conclusion is that private schools do a lot better job of prepping kids for the test. Applied nationally, who are in those private schools? Another example: Washington DC. 2001 tests results , no students from public schools made cutoff, yet the cutoff was 221 one of the highest in the country. My question is, "Why should the black kids who attend public schools in DC be penalized because there happens to be a large number of private schools in the area?" These kids clearly are penalized for being in a region high in private schools, like Hawaii, or Delaware ( 20% private school attendence like Hawaii), or New Hampshire, and Connecticut. If you believe the NM should be reserved for the preppy kids then I guess it's OK. One of the things I am saying is that there may be lots of really sharp kids sitting in public school classrooms who will not have a chance to compete for the scholarships or the recognition because their schools do not prep them for the test and there may not be a culture at their school that would incent them to prep for the test. They may also be handicapped by the number of private school kids in their state. On the other hand, you have the private schools, and certain ones in particular, that have really figured out the test..HiMom's school being the most noticible one I can think of. NM really doesn't publish what the state cutoff scores are every year..thank-God for the Internet. If you read the articles on the University of California's position on the NM you would come to same conclusion. On the other hand, there are universities like U of Oklahoma, Arizona State, U of Florida that treat NM like gods, free tutition, room board, $$. So there is disagreement on the NM even among universities. I know that USC gives big tuition discounts to NM. The irony here is that if you are a New England preppie who father is paying big $$ to send you to Exeter, you are probably not shooting for U of Florida, and if you are some white or black kid in a public school in Georgia, which also paradoxically has a very high cutoff due to private school attendance, you don't stand much of a chance to get NM and getting a free ride anywhere. The test and methodolpgy of selecting semifinalists needs to change.
<a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2004-02-04-national-merit-scholars_x.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2004-02-04-national-merit-scholars_x.htm</a></p>
<p>Here's a thread you might want to read, especially the recent post about a school which has 167 NMSF--way more that our entire state of HI & apparently a lot more than most of the other schools in the article.</p>
<p>Here's the article about the NMSF in the area:</p>
<p>HiMom, thanks for the post..that was very interesting information about TJHSST.</p>
<p>"Two hundred Fairfax County Public Schools (FCPS) students have been named National Merit Scholarship Semifinalists by the National Merit Scholarship Corporation (NMSC) for 2006. Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology (TJHSST), which also serves as the Governors Regional School for Northern Virginia , has 167 semifinalists. "</p>
<p>TJSST is obviously not your average public school that has to accept all students. It does demonstrate the difference in philosphy of the different department of educations between Hawaii and Virginia. Other states have similiar policies with special schools for the gifted and talented...obviously Hawaii has more a socialistic philosophy and has a brain drain problem to private schools. Fortunately for the students in Virginia they have that program available to their sharper students. I think if Hawaii had a program like Virginia, they probably would do just as well percentage-wise.</p>
<p>Yeah, it's great that Virginia does value it's gifted and talented kids and gives them a quailty public education. It is a shame that HI & I believe some other states do not offer the same opportunities in the public school system and therefore end up with a huge "brain drain" to private schools, which has only worsened over time.
Many of us have tried to be part of the solution in trying to strengthen our public school system. Unfortunately, it's a really uphill battle & "No Child Left Behind" is making it all that much tougher to attract & keep great faculty. I have met increasing numbers of very talented and dedicated administrators and teachers who no longer love (actually at this point now barely tolerate) the careers they were once so very passionate about -- before "No Child Left Behind." In fact, tonight, I had a long talk with a wonderful public school principal who is getting really burned out. It scares and troubles me.
I would love it if as a nation, we devoted more energy and resources to our gifted and talented, but unfortunately it is not really a national priority--I have never seen any evidence of it being a state priority in HI.</p>
<p>There are obviously some bigger problems than the NM in Hawaii. The NM and the private school phenomenon in Hawaii are interelated. In Fairfax County you have an institutional brain drain to that public high school that's built into their system. The results with regard to NM would seem logical. In Hawaii you have the largest percentage of kids not attending public schools. The mentality there and some other states are talked about in the book written several years ago, politically incorrect, as it had become, called the "Bell Curve". You may have heard of it. It essentially says that over history societies have tried in vain to dump money and resource at the low end of the scale and it has never worked. It says that historically, resource spent on gifted children has had more immediate results. To some people and politicians, the booked smacked a little too much of a topic nobody wanted to touch, heredity versus environment. To many educators and politicians, their goal is equal access to education, which taken to the extreme, means everyone gets the same quality education across the board. Fortunately for kids in Virginia, California, New York, Michigan, and other states, they do have special programs for both ends of the spectrum, not just the low end. Yes, it's controversial. With 20% of kids in Hawaii not attending public high school, those parents have simply voted with their feet at great personal cost to send their kids to private school which has created a brain drain. You have probably been cheated to your right to a good public education for your children because the powers that be have a misguided interpretation of what is public education is all about. You'd think with 20% of the population not sending their kids to public school that they'd have all this money left over to make it better for the rest. I know the Hawaii educational system is one of the worst of the fifty states, at least test-wise. I don't think you can blame it all on the immigrants for dragging the scores down.</p>
<p>That Virginia school accepts something like the top one-half to one-percent of applicants from the state into their "public school" program. That number coincides well with the National Merit cutoff guidelines so it should not be surprising they got 167. I'm actually surprised they don't have more. Usually concentrating brainpower in one spot tends to increase results.</p>
<p>What is the score to be named a commended student in CA? I haven't heard, but I know I didn't make the semi cut? Also, where can I find the actual names released for the National Acheivement Semifinalists???</p>