Naval official rejects Mid's appeal

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
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<p>Student expelled for failing running test must repay $127,000</p>

<p>Published in today's BS:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/annearundel/bal-md.ar.shannon18jan18,0,3832444.story?coll=bal-local-headlines%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/annearundel/bal-md.ar.shannon18jan18,0,3832444.story?coll=bal-local-headlines&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
A top Navy official has rejected the appeal of a local Naval Academy midshipman who was kicked out for failing a running test by 20 seconds, exhausting his options for readmission and forcing him to repay the $127,000 cost of his education.</p>

<p>Waiving Frank Shannon's financial obligation "was not in the best interest of the United States," Navy Assistant Secretary William Navas wrote in a Jan. 4 letter....

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</p>

<p>In my opinion, Frank Shannon should be sent to the fleet as an E-3 to repay his debt to the nation. Getting married after he was expelled certainly didn't help his situation.</p>

<p>One has to wonder why the academy waited until six weeks before graduation to expel Shannon. He failed the PRT 12 out of 18 times -- the Navy was definitely long suffering in this case.</p>

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<p>hmmm... PFT's are TOMORROW!!!! :eek:</p>

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<p>are there opportunities to "retake" the PFT if you fail? or do you only have one shot?</p>

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<p>hmmmm.. don't really know! And to be perfectly honest, I hope we never have to find out either!!! :eek:</p>

<p>(from what I have heard, if you fail a PRT you are put into a remediation group...not sure if they are called that, but you have to attend extra training.... not sure if you are allowed to retake PRT after that..... )</p>

<p>The key is to keep up with the PRT year-round.... which means running during free time (you see mids running around the yard at all hours of the day and night, although I must admitt we were down there this past weekend and there were lots more of them running around and practicing pullups than I recall seeing on previous visits).....</p>

<p>something along the lines of "an ounce of prevention......." sort of thing....</p>

<p>what I have heard, on several occassions, is that sometimes the run can be particuarly tough for some of the varsity athletes....and surprisingly, the ones that you would think would have no issues, such as football, which focuses on sprints rather than distance running..... go figure! Somehow having an "athlete" fail a PRT doesn't compute!</p>

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<p>In my day, if you failed the PRT, you were assigned to a remedial fitness program and retook the PRT on a weekly basis. Thus, depending on when in the semester you failed (when the test occurred for your class), there were potentially many opportunities to retake and pass. I don't recall anyone being kicked out for failure to pass the PT, but they did threaten that you wouldn't graduate on time if you didn't pass before Commissioning.</p>

<p>However, as someone who always struggled with the run (but passed), PT issues can be as daunting as academics. As Navy2010 said, you can be "in shape" (i.e., not overweight), working out regularly, and still have trouble -- just as people can be smart, study a lot and still struggle academically. Nonetheless, there is a perception at USNA that PT failures are due to lack of effort/commitment whereas academic failures are viewed as occurring despite effort and commitment.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Nonetheless, there is a perception at USNA that PT failures are due to lack of effort/commitment whereas academic failures are viewed as occurring despite effort and commitment.

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<p>ah, so true!!!!</p>

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<p>Published in the BS:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/annearundel/bal-md.ar.shannon13feb13,1,1084500.story%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/annearundel/bal-md.ar.shannon13feb13,1,1084500.story&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
A former midshipman who was expelled from the Naval Academy for failing a running test by 20 seconds has met with a new hurdle in repaying the $127,000 cost of his education: an additional $38,000 in late fees and penalties.</p>

<p>Frank Shannon racked up the charges while waiting for the secretary of the Navy to decide his fate, including the three months that the office misplaced his appeal letter....

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<p>It's time for Mr. Shannon to retain an attorney.</p>

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<p>People are, indeed, funny about "retaining an attorney."
Most would not hesitate, in a heartbeat [so to speak], about going to a doctor should they have a health problem. Frequently, however, people think they can handle complicated [especially when it comes to dealing w/ the government] issues on their own.</p>

<p>Forgetting for a moment the endless choir that thinks we are too lawyered up in this country [those same people who wouldn't hesitate to hire an attorney if THEY were in trouble and, of course, benefit in many ways from the legal system developed in this country], I just gave this advice to a person who said they "could not afford an attorney."</p>

<p>There are three times in your life when you MUST come up with the money for an attorney.</p>

<p>When you are threatened with prison;
When you are threatened with deportation; or,
When your children are threatened.</p>

<p>Fortunately, for me, I deal w/ all three issues. He CAN afford an attorney [sell that house for example], he just doesn't want to afford one. The government will not give up in collecting these debts [despite what many of the chattering class say]. Get the family and friends to give up the drinkin', the smokin', the rock and roll and its amazing what kind of money one can accumulate. </p>

<p>I don't know the circumstances of the young man the subject of this inquiry, but he does seem to have some issues that need addressing. Either way, he is going to have to pay for those 20-seconds.</p>

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<p>^^^^^
Those 20 seconds are going to cost Shannon $8,250 per second. :(</p>

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<p>
[quote]
A talented football player who also attended the Naval Academy Preparatory School for a year, Shannon is the first to admit that the physical rigors of life as a midshipman were tough on him.</p>

<p>He failed his biannual physical fitness test 12 of 18 times. He could handle the push-up and sit-up tests. But he said he found the distance run - where Mids have to cover 1.5 miles in 10 minutes and 30 seconds or less - particularly grueling.</p>

<p>Shannon was put in a remedial program to help him meet the requirements and always passed with coaching from friends, until the final test of his fall semester of 2005. After failing several consecutive tests, the academy dismissed him. His final time was 10 minutes, 50 seconds.

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</p>

<p>I hate to say this, but my 49 year old husband could pass this, and he is not a particularly fast runner.</p>

<p>Those 20 seconds could make the difference in a life and death situation. I guess they have to draw the line somewhere. Too bad for this young man, though. I don't think they should make him repay, that is just awful.</p>

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<p>For those who feel this is 'unfair'.....I can only say these standards are what being in the military is all about! What the press wants us to feel is how 'unfair' the 'system' is to this poor 'midshipman' who is being mistreated by those big bad military folk.</p>

<p>I am a parent who wants any and all military personnel who will one day be called upon to do something in a WAR on TERROR to be physically capable of this task. </p>

<p>To graduate from a Service Academy is more than academics. You have to achieve both scholastically and physically. You could be a 4.0 Firstie and be unable to receive a Commission due to physical standards. You could run a 3 minute mile and be carrying a 1.5 GPA and not be able to receive a Commission. That's the way the system is set up and that's what all Service Academy young people know way ahead of time.</p>

<p>If this were Rome, Sparta, Greece, China or Japan of history.....would be having this discussion??</p>

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<p>Oh my gosh. What a mess!</p>

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<p>I'm curious Moonmaid: Why don't you think he should repay?</p>

<p>In addition, I always curious as to how the press-bashing comes about. What does the reporting have to do with this?</p>

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<p>Bill, if he was working hard at passing, plus engaged in regular academic classes, it's obvious he was not a slacker during the period he was there. He's offered to serve - with the current military shortage, why not make use of that offer and let him work off his debt?</p>

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<p>p.s. Bill, press bashing is a common sport. As a freelance writer, I always read with amusement how we who work for "the press" try to manipulate and influence. It's really only bad writers (or editors) who do that. The press simply reports on what the publisher thinks is newsworthy.</p>

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<p>"Those 20 seconds could make the difference in a life and death situation."</p>

<pre><code>Too bad he isn't a she, the 20 seconds wouldn't have mattered.
</code></pre>

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<p>Nothing to do with manipulating and influencing. Is there anyone on the planet that believes that a scribe or talking head can do either these days? That's why the newsbusiness is increasingly confusing itself with entertainment industry and it may be they're better at that than news reporting. The press simply reports on what the publisher thinks is "right." Way too often it's apparent that's left. There's been ample evidence of the perspective of the media. No real need to rehash their collective bias. It's well recognized.</p>

<p>One must stand somewhere to report on anything. It's the public's observation that way too many of the media are standing like lemmings to report their collective POV to an increasingly skeptical reported-to public.</p>

<p>But we digress. Bill's wont to chain-jerking. </p>

<p>About the repayment issue, I'm prone to think there's shared guilt here, as GA suggested. While he failed to achieve that which he knew was expected, why would the Navy allow him to persist in failing until it was apparent he could not cross the finish line and now owed a small fortune for receipt of a degree and commission that would not be forthcoming. I'm betting this one may not get to trial.</p>

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<p>No particular chain jerking on this Friday.
Just curious as to why Moonmaid didn't think he sh/ repay. WPs assessement seems to make a bit more sense than MM. That is, EVERYBODY at the Academy [as in most circumstances] thinks they work hard and/or are doing the best they can do. Utilizing that standard, most people who leave the Academy under earlier than expected circumstances would not have to pay. The point is not whether he was working hard or not; the point is that he did not pass the standard. He failed, thus he owes the money.</p>

<p>WPs point, however, carries out the maxim that no good deeds go unpunished. The Navy could have [and probably sh ould have] failed him immediately after failing the PRT. But, the "NAVY" is really just government employees trying to do their job. So, the conversation goes, lets give the guy another chance. [How many would be complaining, for example, if it were their child who, in fact, was failed after just one try for only missing by 20-seconds. The American public likes to give everbody a second, anad third, and twelfth chance after all.] Well, he's trying hard, let's give him another chance. Until, NOW, we get blamed for not failing him immediately. Still, he was permitted to stay under failing circumstances, so I would probably have some sympathy for that argument.</p>

<p>I don't know the specific reasons the Navy won't accept him as an officer other than, perhaps . . . just guessing here, that grants him something he hasn't earned.</p>

<p>Re: the press. People, as was discussed earlier this year, read into press accounts exactly what they want to read into them. [Studies referenced earlier this year support this notion.]<br>
Thus, a simple story about a mid having to repay a debt is read by PM as a press effort to make the reader feel sorry for this poor midshipman. I did not read the story w/ a fine-toothed comb, but I did not get that impression at all. [Similar to those who bashed the press in these forums about a month ago over its coverage of some other slightly negative story about an Academy. Was it the cheating scandal at USAFA? It seems that any story written about a negative occurrence at an Academy is "biased."] </p>

<p>I am simply curious about how or why some thought this story was written with bias? Give an example of a sentence that is written with bias. I would love to see how those who are so critical of the press would write this story--without bias--if given the chance.</p>

<p>So . . . no chain jerking. Just asking a question which, like so many other questions, nobody is prepared to answer.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Too bad he isn't a she, the 20 seconds wouldn't have mattered.

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</p>

<p>True. </p>

<p>However, your comment appears to suggest that women are being held to a "lower standard" and, by implication, that the standard should be equal. However, under that theory, we wouldn't need to separate men's and women's track events in the Olympics. IOW, if men and women were held to the "same" standard in the 1.5 mile run, women would be, by default be held to a much higher standard than their male counterparts. </p>

<p>Bottom line is that physical standards for men & women at USNA and in the USN are intended to reflect the fact that there are physical differences -- just as most athletic events involving speed are segregated by gender.</p>

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<p>Sorry for the two replies -- should have put them together.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The point is not whether he was working hard or not; the point is that he did not pass the standard. He failed, thus he owes the money.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Of interest, however, is that mids who fail academically after their first 2 years are not forced to repay the money (at least I've never heard of this occurring -- someone correct me if I'm wrong). IMO, failure is failure. The implicit message in this case is that physical failure is somehow your "fault" but academic failure happens despite your best efforts. That's not necessarily the case. (I'll grant you that obesity contributing to PT failure is the fault of the mid; however, my understanding is that this particular mid did not have a weight problem.)</p>

<p>
[quote]
The Navy could have [and probably sh ould have] failed him immediately after failing the PRT.

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</p>

<p>IMO, they should take the same approach with PT failures as they do with academic failures -- have a board that decides whether, on whole, the mid should be retained or kicked out. And, just as with academics, if the mid is retained, he/she should be put on a remedial program intended to help (not punish) the mid to be better prepared for the next go-round. Just as with academics, if there is not measurable improvement over the next 1-2 semesters, separation may be the only option. But, if someone is separated after 2 yrs for any reason of their own doing, there should one approach to repayment -- i.e., either require it in every case or don't require it at all.</p>