<p>^^^
You are also correct in that for a good math student, stretching it to two years would really make it drag.</p>
<p>How about taking Pre-Cal at a community college in Summer 2011? Cost should be (much) less than $900. Or, if your S2 is really comfortable with Math, move onto AP Calc BC directly in his Sophomore year, take AP Stat in his Junior year, and if his schedule allows, Multi-Variable Calc at the cc in his Senior Year. This can help him stand out if he is going to major in Math or Engineering. (His university is likely going to give him credits for the community college class/es and that equals to savings in money and time.)</p>
<p>Regarding not having Math classes in all 4 years of hs, it did not seem to be a problem with my D’s college application/acceptance. She actually only took 2 math classes in her hs (AP Calc BC & AP Stat).</p>
<p>I was a math major and D1 is math major in college. It is very important to have very good foundation when it comes to math. I find when people try to rush through material, a lot could be missed. Looking at your son’s schedule, he could rush through pre-calc and calc so he could take AP Stats senior year. Why? I think each one of those courses deserve a full year. It is also beneficial to take math courses with other students, instead of just with one tutor. Taking a math course with some top students could often reveal different ways of solving a problem. To be good in a math course it also take a lot of time to work on problem sets. It takes practice to fully comprehend a concept sometimes.</p>
<p>You son maybe good at math, but he may end up doing badly by rushing through it, and it could actually hurt his college application.</p>
<p>I can think of many better ways to spend $900 and your child’s time. It is great that he is interested in math, but there are other ways to help him that don’t cost as much–the school’s competitive math team (if there is one), a city-wide math club, or another interest entirely. He also might find that high school is very different from middle school, and that he might feel rushed trying to take a full courseload plus having tutoring. My son was quite ready to leave middle school and go to high school–but in middle school, the only advanced course he could take was math, while in high school he could take advanced courses in every subject except the required Bible class. If this is the case for your child, he might be better advised to start freshman year and see how things are going before committing to an extra outside class.</p>
<p>It is so interesting to me the difference in the math classes available to students at different schools. Perhaps they just use different names and not being a ‘math wiz’ it doesn’t sink in for me, but here’s what our kids are offered, as well as my 2 cents.</p>
<p>Our kids are tested in elementary school for the early math track to go ahead one year. In middle school a very few are tested again to jump another year. They are then two years ahead. For the sake of this list, I’ll list students who are one year ahead.</p>
<p>8th Algebra 1
9th Geometry
10th Algebra 2/Trig
11th Either Functions Analytic Trig OR Functions Analytic Geometry
12th IF Funct Trig, only Calc AB is an Option, IF Functions Geo, Calc AB OR Calc BC
++Students who were two years ahead take AP Stats</p>
<p>The gaps here are from Alg2/Trig to Funct/Trig there is a good deal of review but many students faced with their first year of APs available don’t want the pressure.
Students who choose took Func/Geo have a good deal of review in Calc AB, however BC is killer and often not worth the GPA dump. (not a typo, that wasn’t bump… dump, as in drop)
Students who go on to AP Stats find it to be a cake walk and as others have said forget a good deal of Calc by college.</p>
<p>The bottom line is MOST, not all, but most high school teachers are not qualified to teach calculus on the level needed for majors that will build on this in college. It’s a great base, but unless the student is naturally gifted they should be taught by a college professor.</p>
<p>Based on what you have said, and your students interest and ability, take the Alg 2, Calc AB, Calc BC, AP Stats. By his Sr. year if he is quite bored, in addition to AP Stats, have him take the next level of Calc at your community college either by early release (if your school allows that), at night, or on a Saturday.</p>
<p>To some this may seem like it is dragging it out, however this is only based on the teachers ability to effectively teach the material. Getting a solid based without killing himself (and run out of classes) will also allow him the flexibility to add AP classes in other areas (english, foreign language, history, or science) without feeling overwhelmed, that will strengthen his transcript overall.</p>
<p>I have a BA in math, and I concur with oldfort. IMO, rushing through instead of getting a good, solid foundation is a mistake. At this stage of mathematics, repetition is a good tool to really seal in the math skills. </p>
<p>Can someone explain what is gained by accelerating? </p>
<p>Another aspect S2 encountered in college, is that if you are on the ‘usual’ track there are many more sections to choose from than if you have accelerated. With more sections, comes a better selection of professors.</p>
<p>It depends on how good the student really is. If he/she is truly an advanced or gifted student, the normal classes won’t be that challenging and could keep him wanting more. But I agree, Alg 2 and Precalc are usually not designed to be taken concurrently, there are concepts in the latter that needs some foundation from the former. If you want opportunity to progress faster, I think it is in cutting the Calc down to one year by going to Calc BC if the BC curriculum at the school encompasses AB material. Also AP Stats does not usually require a completion of Calc, you can take that concurrently with other classes and usually a breeze for most math wiz.</p>
<p>I think people accelerate because normal course of classes that are proper for most other kids do not properly challenge their children. It is not the norm but there are a few exception that will benefit from it.</p>
<p>If he is a gifted math person, then I would echo other posters in trying to supplement his study with other activities like math team, math competition and summer math programs.</p>
<p>I agree with ttparent, that the best advice would hinge on the level of mathematical ability that your son has already developed, tootired. Did he take the SAT as a middle school student? If so, how did he do in math? Did he participate in MathCounts, or the Math League competitions? If so, how did those turn out?</p>
<p>In principle, I agree with the AoPS commentary on “the calculus trap.” However, in my opinion, the people at AoPS are contrasting two choices, one of which doesn’t exist in most school systems. If a student had the opportunity for challenging, deep pre-calculus mathematics (including proof-based work), that was taught by someone with mathematical understanding, then it would make a great deal of sense to take that track, and enrich it further with competition pre-calculus mathematics, from the AoPS courses or other sources.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, very few communities have mathematics educators who are capable of supplying/supporting that kind of course work. Then the optimal course sequence instead might involve moving to calculus fairly rapidly.</p>
<p>In the case of QMP and friends, a local university offered 4 years of high school mathematics compressed into 2 years. Before 8th grade, a few of the students tested into the second year of the compressed 2-year sequence. This meant taking Calc BC in the freshman year. I felt that the students acquired as substantial an understanding of calculus as I had (years before), although I first took the calculus when I was three years further along. The opportunity to take real mathematics at the local university was a definite draw.</p>
<p>An accelerated schedule that winds up with AP Stats in the senior year seems fairly pointless to me. Is there an alternative through a college in a one-hour driving radius of your home, tootired? One of my colleagues took math at Princeton while he was still in high school.</p>
<p>I agree with posters who said that a student doesn’t really need Calc AB and Calc BC in separate years (although some schools do it this way, and some offer the options of taking just AB, just BC, or AB and then BC).</p>
<p>avoidingwork raised the question of what is gained by accelerating. This depends a lot on the local school district. In the case of QMP and friends, there was no proof-based math offered in the high school (not in the honors track and not in AP). Proof-based geometry was available through the accelerated course at the university. Also, in the case of the local school district, numerous art projects masquerading as mathematics were avoided by accelerating. </p>
<p>While a book in a literature course can be approached at many different levels, according to the background of the student, there is only so much that can be said about solving quadratic equations (until one gets into abstract algebra, when there is more that can be said–but usually high school teachers don’t handle work at that level).</p>
<p>The “Suzuki-babies” around here play their instruments with great skill. Although their progress is enormously accelerated compared with old-fashioned string instruction, no one thinks that they are missing the fundamentals, or in need of more repetition.</p>
<p>For the most part I agree with QM. What was gained by accelerating? Not being bored to tears. My son wasn’t wildly accelerated in math, but that’s partly because he got distracted by computer programming and spent all his free time on that. And I so hear you on art projects masquerading as math!</p>
<p>He did:
7th grade: Algebra 1
8th grade: Geometry
9th grade: Algebra 2 (NY called them Math A and Math B, but that’s the material covered)
10th grade: Trig/Precalc
11th grade: Calc BC
12th grade: MV Calc (first year it was offered in the school, other years kids have taken college courses)</p>
<p>Two classmates were on the same track as he was, several others joined him when the took Trig/Precalc in the summer.</p>
<p>He’s a comp sci major at CMU and hasn’t had any problem with the math he’s had in college. Marite (who used to post on this board) had a son who was much more accelerated in math and did fine in math at Harvard. Over the years I’ve heard a lot of hang wringing about kids missing things by going to fast, but I’ve never actually met one of these poor kids IRL. All the superbright math kids I knew at Harvard were happily superaccelerated.</p>
<p>By the way, I do agree that Math Camp and Math Team are a great supplement to a pretty anemic typical high school curriculum.</p>
<p>Exactly, mathmom charted a typical advanced high school math courses. If MV Calc is not offered, most other colleges near you should offer the course, sometimes late afternoon or early evening for adult education. It is also true at our school that most gifted math students do not take AP Stats. This is mainly because at our school, the AP Stats is usually a class for kids who either feel that they cannot handle Calc or do not have any interest to ever taking Calc. Thusly, the pace and the material in the class is not very appropriate for these gifted math student.</p>
<p>Sometimes ‘accelerating’ really translates to going more at the student’s own pace rather than having it unduly stretched out and being bored. Accelerating the courses also doesn’t shorten the time of each course so the argument that the student wouldn’t have enough time to do problem sets, etc. doesn’t apply. Some posters above have given reasonable and acceptable course schedules for a student who does very well in math.</p>
<p>However, one needs to keep in mind that doing well in math up to 8th grade doesn’t mean the student will do wonderfully in Geometry, Trig, or Calc so even if one comes up with an accelerated plan the progress needs to be monitored and there needs to be a willingness to ‘fall back’ if needed.</p>
<p>Due to scheduling reasons, I completely skipped pre-calc and went straight from algebra II and geometry to calculus my sophomore year. I picked the pre-calc concepts up as I needed them throughout the year. It can definitely be done, even without a tutor. (In fact, I had so much fun discovering and deriving pre-calc identities myself that I eventually became a math major in college.)</p>
<p>echoing the others, what’s the rush to get to AP Stat in senior year? Why not just double pre-calc and AP Stat Jr year, and then take Calc BC senior year? This, of course, assumes that your HS will allow a student to take BC without having taken AB first. Otherwise:</p>
<p>Frosh: Alg II
Soph: precalc/stats
Jr: AB/stats
Sr: BC</p>
<p>Or,</p>
<p>Frosh: Alg II
Soph: precalc/stats
Jr: BC
Sr: MV at local college if not offered at HS</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This assumes they are superbright and not being pushed ahead unnecessarily (or pushing themselves ahead for the wrong reasons). Believe me I’ve seen accelerated people tank, in fact it sort of happened to me many moons ago, although there were a number of reasons I took a nosedive after my first couple years of college (and not at Harvard). Turns out I was a competent math student but certainly not a math prodigy.</p>
<p>Everyone has to make that decision on their own. Frankly, there is often a difference to me between being able to perform the mechanics of something like Calculus, and being an extraordinary math student. I swear I’ve looked at solutions to USAMO problems that required little more than Algebra to solve, which I would never in a million years been able to figure out even though I’ve taken Complex Analysis. So advancing in Math courses is only one way for a kid to challenge themselves.</p>
<p>^Oh I understand that and I also had the experience of not really getting Calc. the first time I took it. I took it again in college and found it easy the second time through. I do know that there are plenty of kids who were good at math in high school who discover that they don’t have what it takes to be a math major in college. That doesn’t mean it was wrong to accelerate in high school. The thing is most mathematicians peak young - it’s dumb to hold them back because some other kids are going too fast. I wasn’t harmed by getting a 2 on the Calc BC exam in high school (especially since I got an A in the course.) I just took it again in college.</p>
<p>My son is also a HS freshman this year. He plans to take Algebra II the first semester, along with earth science and biology. During the second semester, he has chemistry or as he said, “It’s just another math class, Mom.” Well, a lot of chemistry is math so we are not opposed to this. I don’t know if that is an option for your son. </p>
<p>BTW, my older son, who is now a sophomore in college, completed Algebra I and II and geometry all before his freshman year. He took pre-calculus as a freshman, BC calculus as a sophomore and AP Stat as a junior. He also took AP Bio, Chem and Physics B over his final three years of high school. He pushed himself. Guess his little brother is the same way.</p>
<p>First , find out if BC requires AB. At some schools , AB is chap 1-x, and BC is x-y. At other schools, both cover similar ground at low and high levels.
I don’t think 900 for a tutor is necessary. Pre-calc is straightforward stuff that he could probably cover on his own or in summer school or using an online system.
But be sure you know what the school policy is. SOme schools get their knickers in a twist when kids try to accelerate.
AP Stat is good to have but not really what comes after calc (ab or bc).</p>
<p>Thanks for all the so very informative posts.
QuantMech, yes, he took SAT in 7th grade, scored 700 in math (but not well in critical reading and essay).
nemom, his school has AP Calc AB as a prereq to AP Calc BC. 900 is a big deal for us and we talked to him and let him know we will not be spending that much, or any amount on tutoring. He seems to be stuck on self-studying it though, seems to me he does not want to give up the thought. Oh, by the way, he says he doesn’t consider it as ‘accelerating’, rather, he would like to call it ‘aligning’ !? </p>
<p>Has anyone tried [UCCP</a> Open Access](<a href=“http://www.ucopenaccess.org/]UCCP”>http://www.ucopenaccess.org/) - this came up on a search. It does not have PreCalc per se, but has AP Calcs listed. I was wondering if anyone found it useful, anyone actually registered and went through the entire course please post how you found it. Also, please post any free links to learning PreCalc. Again, I want to say how much I appreciate CC and everybody’s opinions, I spend a lot more time on CC than with my family, lol!</p>
<p>OP - You probably know what is best for your son and family. Just make sure that in his quest to super-accelerate the math that he loves he does not </p>
<p>If Math Team is an option, I’d vote for that outlet instead of the extra acceleration. Then he’ll have a tougher math class t keep his math mind sharp senior year. </p>
<p>Oh, it is not uncommon for students to take a dip on Math SAT scores when they get into the more advanced material. Encourage him to practice SAT before the real test, even if he has aced practice tests in previous year. And plan the best point to take the Math2 SAT.</p>
<p>I’d recommend the Art of Problem Solving for the outside math class instead of a tutor. They have really great, fast-paced classes and he’ll learn more math than he would in his school’s curriculum in any event. He may need to wait until winter or start with the Algebra II or III class because you need some of that material for precalc.</p>
<p>D1 did end up taking PreCalc from AoPS because the pace of the course at school was killing her. She learned more in 12 weeks than the curriculum for the entire year of precalc. I’m not a shill, just a very satisfied parent (because I have a very happy young math nerd).</p>
<p>For a kid who really loves math, Calc AB in one year followed by Calc BC in the next will be really deadly dull. Most high school calculus classes are taught as one “trick” after another, and the math is relatively simple. Be prepared, whether or not he accelerates this year, to face this problem again and again.</p>
<p>Good luck.</p>