Need advise on how to prepare a precocious kid to enter top Universities at 17/18 ?

Parent Cafe
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<p>I have a slightly different perspective. </p>

<p>I have two kids, both of whom are in the very very good student category. </p>

<p>For D it would have been the wrong thing to do for her to accelerate her because, and this is very important, she gets her real joy from, and uses her intelligence primarily for, the organizing of other people into productive or creative group activities. This was true at the age of 6 when she would gather groups of girls to play at our house and is true at the age of 20 in her assumption of leadership roles in college. So if we had accelerated her, she would have been unhappy because she would have learned new stuff but not been able to lead groups due to just being littler and less socially sophisticated. </p>

<p>S was more evidently precocious - speaking v. early, walking early, teaching himself to swim, reading complex material early etc. etc. - and not a math genius type, more humanities as it turned out. But S has never been a group person. We didn’t accelerate him either - figuring we had this expertise right? Well, no, parent hubris unfortunately. S has been bored ever since 5th grade. He finds English classes painful. And being smart but shy, even though he is in his age grade he still doesn’t get to be BMOC per se. </p>

<p>So it depends on your kid. Does he get the most joy from his independent pursuits? Does his face light up from math first and people second? Or is he gregarious, does he live for group activities. When you pick him up from school, is he hanging with kids or does he have his nose in a book?</p>

<p>Now possibly the lack of acceleration has helped S’s social skills. He got to play a lot of soccer this way:). But let’s put it as follows. College is coming none to soon. And, another issue. His grades have not been 4.0 all the way. He’s bored. And boredom does not lead to trying your hardest.</p>

<p>So be sure not to let your kid get bored. </p>

<p>On a final note, to heck with ECs. If he loves them let him do them. If he doesn’t let him take more and more math. The one thing you should never do is have kids do ECs for college. They should do it for health, as others have pointed out, or for love, or for ideals. But if you have a kid who is primarily academic and wildly advanced, ECs will just bore him silly. And boredom rarely brings out the best in anyone. I say take up surfing…</p>

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<p>ConcernFather, I just want to commend you on your balanced and deeply perceptive view of the situation. I especially liked your comment, Who is going to listen to a 10 year old talking about “miscarriage” without life’s experience?. – and your appreciation of the very big difference between head knowledge and experiential knowledge.</p>

<p>I was a +2 years accelerated kid who was perpetually bored in elementary school, started college at age 16 at a large state U., and was practicing law at age 23. I was smart, but definitely felt out of my element when people with marital difficulties came to me for advice --I understood the legal issues, but even in my early 20’s could not fully appreciate the emotional issues. </p>

<p>I anticipated that my kids would be smart and likely to be bored in school, but I decided to do everything I could to keep them on a more typical trajectory through school; both graduated high school at age 18. My d. was feeling antsy and complaining a lot her senior year – but her college experience thus far shows that it was the right decision. My kids have the experience and maturity to be leaders among their peers -they are socially confident and competent – and that is something I did not have during my school years, simply because I was always younger than everyone around me.</p>

<p>It sounds like your son is actually doing well where he is – the school has accommodated his lopsided learning needs, and he is where he needs to be (at grade level) when it comes to study of humanities and developing of writing skills. I saw my kids’ writing skills start to flourish at about 8th grade-- this included my d., who was reading and writing well at age 4. Writing is very important for college success. </p>

<p>So I think you should simply keep to the path you are on, and try to foster your son’s interests in other areas where he is capable but not quite as advanced in order to keep him busy and avoid boredom, as well as to expand his horizons. With my daughter, it was ballet, a pursuit that fortunately can be quite time-consuming as well as presenting challenges to a talented individual with a child’s body. </p>

<p>I’d also encourage lateral exploration of academics rather than vertical. By that I mean that rather than always going to the next “higher” level of math or science, look for opportunities, perhaps through community colleges or on-line university courses, to have your son explore math applications and science topics that are not typically covered in high school. That is, if he exhausts the school’s offerings in chemistry, physics, and biology – perhaps he would like to take a course in astronomy. Here’s a good list to start with to find areas of scientific inquiry that aren’t covered in the usual AP sequence: [Word</a> List: Definitions of Sciences and Studies](<a href=“http://phrontistery.info/sciences.html]Word”>Word List: Definitions of Sciences and Studies)</p>

<p>There is a whole world for your son to explore --and he is very fortunate to have so much extra time in his life to do the exploring. And exceptionally lucky to have a father who is able to take an objective, long view of the process and cherish the child as well as trying to nurture the child’s brain.</p>

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<p>I stopped reading after the second page so excuse me if I repeat what other parents might have said. You have received some good advice from what I have read so far. A couple of people mentioned Boy Scouts and I want to put in another plug for it. Boy Scouts has many advantages for a kid like yours: 1) it is non-competitive, 2) it involves some exercise without requiring athletic aptitude, 3) it allow kids of all ages (11-17) to interact with each other, 4) camping can be very calming and relaxing, 5) it provides a built-in opportunity for meaningful community service (through Eagle Projects and other troop activities), 6) it provides an opportunity for leadership. All of these things are good for building life skills which will help your child no matter what career he pursues. Also, a good troop teaches tolerance towards people’s differences. Make sure you find a good troop where your child feels comfortable.</p>

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<p>We’re off to boy scouts in about an hour:</p>

<p>I’m going to add to the above:</p>

<p>7) great opportunity to learn important life skills: my 13 YO is working on personal financial management. We have had many in depth discussions about the banking industry, interest, present value of money, credit cards, etc. Scouting opens up many areas not usually presented to children, and they can explore them in depth if they like. My son spent a lot of time calculating rates of return, figuring out why compounding daily is better than annually, etc.</p>

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<p>ConcernFather, I share your concern about your son making close friends. The elementary school years were difficult, socially, for my son. H and I had sadly concluded that S would end up an introverted, quiet kid who never managed to find a group of like-minded friends. In a bit of a desperation move, we placed him in a small independent school after 5th grade, hoping for an improvement in the academic experience but not too sure that it would prove any better socially because the new school was so small. To our incredible relief, the new school turned out to have a group of kids very much like him, who thought he was great, did not think his academic interests were weird, and who were happy to follow him as he encouraged the teachers to get some robotics, math, science and quiz bowl teams going. He was transformed from a lonely guy into a very effective leader with tons of friends who are incredibly important to him. Finding the right school for those adolescent years changed who he was. After 9th grade, he returned to the huge public school and thrived.</p>

<p>Boy Scouts: a crucial part of my son’s life. Again, a lot of luck was involved in finding the right troop. Who would guess that a single troop would produce almost all of the local male participants in the state-financed summer program for the gifted? Who would guess that half of all of the town’s NMF would belong to the same Boy Scout troop? The truth is, though, that it wasn’t just a matter of having a bunch of other top students in the troop that made it a great experience. As the other posters mentioned, the outdoor opportunities, the leadership opps as the kids get older, and the chance to develop non-academic skills can be very important for academic-minded males. My son teaches orienteering and survival skills; if I’m ever lost in the big outdoors without shelter, he is the guy I want to be with. </p>

<p>I hope your son can find some activities that lead to good friendships. You are obviously willing to work hard to do what needs to be done, and I think you will be successful.</p>

<p>PS riverrunner, I am a Merit Badge counselor for the personal financial management merit badge. It is useful info for a lot of kids.</p>

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<p>Bard College runs a program for students who wish to begin college after Grade 10. They found there are some kids who simply can’t take any more of high school culture. I believe they get an A.A. degree, living in residence at dorms, at Bard. They do this instead of taking 11th and 12th grade at their h.s.
I am not sure their program is right for his tremendous math/science capabilities, however.
Just a different approach. I actuallly like other suggestions better, but am throwing this out to add to your list. I have the impression that this school is about kids who are fed up with h.s. for a variety of good reasons, but not necessarily for geniuses.</p>

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<p>Actually, the is Simon’s Rock College of Bard and it is located in Massachusetts, Great Barrington, I think.</p>

<p>Bard has really been developing its math/science program of late and this probably carries over to Simon’s Rock.</p>

<p>Mia Farrow’s son, Seamus, who is a genius, went to Bard at 11. I assume he now he first went to Simon’s Rock and then the college, but I’m not sure. He went to Bard, then Yale Law School.</p>

<p>He started mastering advanced physics at 7.</p>

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<p>Marite, any kid with a big verbal/nonverbal split runs the risk of social difficulties. They just don’t think like other kids and this can separate them from their peers. I’m not saying this is always true or that it’s not something one can overcome, just that parents should watch out for it because it is common.</p>

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<p>ConcernFather,</p>

<p>You already got a lot of good advice. I just want to get back to your original concern. All the talk about being “well-rounded” really applies to smart students who nonetheless can’t distinguish themselves from other applicants acadmeically. But your son is more like a little genius (i.e. “smart” is an understatement) and there’s really not that many out there. I don’t think you need to worry too much about adding much more. He’s gonna get into MIT or whatever even without bunch of non-academic ECs.</p>

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<p>Please do not throw stones at me here, but for some reason the OP looks fishy.</p>

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<p>my two cents and experience here:</p>

<p>every kid is unique and one can never be sure what s/he wants or will do later on. thinking long term is the key.</p>

<p>Couple of years ago, I had the similar questions and posted on the parent forum got very good feedback and advise, I’d like to thank them again (unfortunately, the thread was not available any more). Basically everyone like supportive parents in this thread gave me very good advise and suggestions. The common consensus was to slow down, be natural and should guide the kid to other interests and challenge. Some advisers themselves were gifted when they were young and ended up to be lawyer or doctors at early age and had second thoughts on what they could have done in retrospect. </p>

<p>My son was constantly above his peers on all subjects when he was young and got accepted by JHU SET program at 11. He was both good at math and verbal, but especially good at math at the time. He skipped the first grade and was a little bit frustrated on peer sports due to most of kids were about one or two years older. He then enrolled a sport program with kids at his age, he was doing well. We had then carefully reprioritised on what we should pay attention to on his development: a. be happy; b. be challenged; c. explore other interests; d. be normal; </p>

<p>a. be happy: nothing makes him happier than having peer friends by hanging out, playing games, going to movies, doing sports and supporting each other; we’ve always encouraged him to make friends and he has varieties of groups of friends: school friends; debate friends, TASP friends and etc. </p>

<p>b. be challenged: it’s relatively easier to be good at math in the early age for a gifted kid, but it would take much more time to show talents on other subjects. My son got into one of top 10 HS just listed by WSJ and developed an interest on HS debate. Only through couple of years hard work, he’s now one of top debaters. This activity has endless challenges and needs lots of effort to get good and it’s time consuming. Even though he’s still good at math and science. (His upper grade friends still discuss their college math homework with him). But his interest is completely changed and he wouldn’t choose any math, engineering or science majors during this college application process. </p>

<p>c. explore other interests: as mentioned above, it took us a big surprise after he started debating in HS. He’s totally changed from science and math oriented activities to English, history, philosophy, writing and etc. He right now really writes well and fast. Countless debate research cards, philosophy books, debate camps have really reshaped his capabilities other than math and science. Other activities like TASP also opened his eyes.</p>

<p>d. be normal: we know that he has a long way to go. Functioning normal and not being pushed too hard are important. He’s been always taken above peer and advanced classes. But every single time, I’d talk to teachers about the each individual situation and have always asked for a backup plan should things don’t work out because not every plan A works perfectly. A backup plan will also help the kid, teacher and ourselves in a better position should anything comes up or a conflict schedule. Also I have been very happy that my son is a laid back person and have completely different circles of friends to talk about different things. Not many of his friends know much what kind of classes he’s taking since he was 9 and he never talks about it. It always tickles me whenever I see post modern philosophy books laying around side by side with some comic books in his bathroom. </p>

<p>His extensive travel experience for summer JHU and debate camps and debate tournaments either by group or by himself, his current academic background and maturity have prepared him for his college life. I feel very comfortable and couldn’t have asked more.</p>

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<p>^^
Very good and very informative post above. Thanks.</p>

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<p>Thank you Philip for a very informative post #71. You provided an excellent and balanced perspective, which is what I am seeking.</p>

<p>My son got into SET at JHU age 8. He used to be on Cogito (SET forum) and his icon have a “penguin”. He also got into Davidson YS Program shortly after too.</p>

<p>I used to think that my son was really special till I met many other parents of precocious kids on elsewhere. I also learn that there are precocious kids (especially those homeschooled ones) that took the normal route and enter college when they are 17/18 too. The difficulty is to find interesting activities for them to keep these kids busy. I have got lots and lots of suggestions on this board.. thanks a lot for all the advice.</p>

<p>I am glad your son does well in “English, history, philosophy, writing”. My son is still at age level on these subjects and there is no indcation of advance abilities at this point. Only time can tell, and he might not have them at all (except technical writing, science essays or coding)</p>

<p>Philip, tell me more about TASP. Do they accept younger kids? I know that SIMUW, SIMaC and RSI all require kids in their Junior years, and do not take younger kids.</p>

<p>Once again, thanks a lot for the perspective/priority post.</p>

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<p>You are welcome, ConcernFather. I benefited from this forum and would like to give my feedback and experience for a reference to others.</p>

<p>As far as TASP goes, it’s a one time deal for juniors. But it’s once in a life time experience. Basically it’s equivalent to RSI on humanity for a group of like minded young kids and is considered as one of most prestigious summer programs. The program is a scholarship program and one doesn’t have to pay a penny once accepted. Rumor has it that top universities pay attention to this program. From the past TASPers track records, it seems to support this view because some people consider the process to get into the program is more rigorous than that of some top college admission process.</p>

<p>It generally works like this (at least in my son case): a junior is likely to get an invitation if s/he scores very high on PSAT (top 1%, I read somewhere). s/he then decides to apply this program or not. Usually there are close 1000 applicants each summer, first cut from their internal review will leave about 150 final candidates who will be interviewed by previous TASPers in each city. (there are kids from other countries who will probably get a phone interview which is what I heard, not sure how that works exactly). The interview process includes the 5 essays a candidate submitted in the application and other topics. Finally 86 of them are chosen. I should say that the number is for last summer program. There were 5 classes last summer: Cornell 2; one each at U of Austin, U of Michigan and Washington U. at St. Louis. Each class has 16 kids with two professors from universities like Cornell, Austin and etc. to study one topic for 6 intensive weeks. In the morning, two professors lead for discussion and study for three hours, in the afternoon and evening, they will study the topic and related material and assignment. Each class will also have two assistants living with them. Usually these assistants are former TASPers and currently enrolled in Harvard, Cornell and other universities. Sometimes they get chance to meet world-renowned scholars in a seminar or have a meal and talk with them.</p>

<p>This is a unique experience for anyone to have 6 weeks to develop and think freely in one of very interesting areas with reputable prof. and peers without any string attached. </p>

<p>There is a rich history to this program and other connections. I just checked that there is only 4 classes for 2008 summer TASP program:
<a href=“http://www.tellurideassociation.org/pdf/TASPBR08.pdf[/url]”>http://www.tellurideassociation.org/pdf/TASPBR08.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>[Site</a> Index](<a href=“http://www.tellurideassociation.org/siteindex.html]Site”>http://www.tellurideassociation.org/siteindex.html)</p>

<p>[Telluride</a> Association - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telluride_Association]Telluride”>Telluride Association - Wikipedia)</p>

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<p>We had a very good dinner with S yesterday after he got accepted by Stanford EA. He will cancel all other applications except HY.</p>

<p>Early Action Applications, Stanford Class of 2012
Total Number of Applicants: 4551
Number Admitted: 738
16.2 %</p>

<p>Early Action Applications, Yale Class of 2012
Total Number of Applicants: 4888
Number Admitted: 885
18.1 %</p>

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<p>Philip:</p>

<p>Congrats on the Stanford acceptance!</p>

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<p>To get back to the OP. Your son definitely needs to spend a lot more time with kids his age before thinking about college. Going to college that young will make him an outsider, too small, too young, to be really a part of the environment. Also, your comments about his non science skills, esp writing and literature mean he is nowhere near ready. All elite colleges expect their students to be very good at this, and by your account he is slightly above grade level. This would make the college literature courses an impossible challenge.</p>

<p>So what to do? </p>

<p>First, do whatever you must to keep him moving forward with his beloved math and science. Local universities may be the answer for the more advanced courses. The online and distance learning courses tend to be less satisfactory at higher levels since the classes themselves are more discussion based than the intro and mid level college courses.</p>

<p>Second, have you considered conventional boarding schools in a few years? Places like Andover, Exeter, St. Paul’s, and others of their ilk have a number of brilliant kids and provide them with courses at their level in their accelerated fields, and appropriate levels in other areas. At the same time, they can join clubs, sports teams, and other EC’s with students their age, rather than trying to compete with bigger, stronger, older, college age people. I would not send a child to such a place at 10, but 12 or 13 becomes reasonable. These places will have enough brilliant students that he will have some company with others who have similar skewed academic backgrounds. These schools provide a level of support and attention appropriate to age, much more than he would get at college. </p>

<p>A similar approach, if available in your area, would be a top day school that enrolls a reasonable number of top scholar students. </p>

<p>Then he could graduate at 15-17 and head to college just slightly younger than most students. He might even take time off and do a year abroad.</p>

<p>He could then enter Harvard or MIT having completed the coursework in his major for an undergrad degree. They know how to deal with such people. </p>

<p>I second the advice of AOPS and math contests. Whether he likes this kind of math or not, it will introduce you to a community of students and parents across the country who are facing the same questions. If he does not want to pursue the competitions the contacts could be valuable.</p>

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<p>He is not “deficient” in these other areas. he just doesn’t want to do them right now, and that is part of the maturity of a 10 year old. It just is not his passion at the moment, but as he matures he will apply his intellectual curiosity to those areas as well.</p>

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<p>marite: thanks. this year it seems so much different from past since HY and etc. have cancelled EA.</p>

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<p>From afan:

</p>

<p>I think we are actually in perfect agreement here about waiting. This is NOT a thread from a father who is trying to push his son into early college. It’s a TOTALLY DIFERENT type of thread. :slight_smile: If you read my original post, I want to keep my son until 17/18 so that he has a chance to get into good colleges. BTW, when I say that his non science skills are slightly above grade level, I mean that he is still taking Grade 5 subjects and have been accelerated by 1 year. However, he is in the top 1% in an already “gifted” class, and that is why he skipped 4th grade gifted entirely. In his recent PSAT, his writing is actually 78th percentile (compared to high school kid), and he is only 10. Like what 4Giggles have said, he is not “deficient” in these other areas… he just doesn’t want to do them right now. Well said, 4Giggles!!! It’s not a matter of abilities…it’s a matter of interests. And he has all the time in the world to wait. :)</p>

<p>His social skills is good, and there is no concern there too. He spend half the day with 18 years old high school seniors. They don’t treat him like a kid, but as an intellectual peer. They work with him in the AP Biology DNA labs, and depend on his results as an “equal” lab partner. In AP Statistics, his is grouped with 18 years old for “Partner Quiz”, and he is also valued there because of his contribution and his ideas. </p>

<p>What I really wanted to find out was : what do I do with his Math and Science, once he finished all the available AP courses at 11 next year. Many of the parents have given me GREAT suggestions. I also realised that he could self-study AP Computer Science and AP Music Theory and take these 2 subjects on his own. However, I want him to wait a few more years to see if he can develop a passion for liberal arts and language. And if the passion does not come in a few more years… I might have to re-evaluate my current “wait-and-see” approach.</p>

<p>All the other advise from various other parents about keeping him balance, immersing him in sports because it is good for him, etc were also very good!!! I need to hear that too.</p>