Need advise on how to prepare a precocious kid to enter top Universities at 17/18 ?

Parent Cafe
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<p>Hi all,</p>

<p>I am new on this board. </p>

<p>I have a precocious kid, who will turn 10 years old next month. Unfortunately, I made the mistake of allowing him to be accelerated beyond his age level for Math and Science and he has uneven development. In retrospect, I realized that it is an error. I am hoping that he could apply to top universities (eg HYPSM) like other regular college kids when he reaches 17 / 18 years old. So, my problem is ... how I undo some of my earlier decisions. I believe I need to play a different game with different rules to enter Ivy League.... and I don't know the game or rules well.</p>

<p>Let me provide more details.</p>

<p>I let my son take SAT at age 8 and he did well. The school district start accelerating him for Math and Science, and he did AP Calculus and AP Physics with 18 years old in a high school. The other half of the day, he spend his time in elementary school, 3rd grade. He did very well, and got "5"s for collegeboard exams. This year, the school district accelerate him from 3rd to 5th grade, and he is taking AP Biology and AP Statistics at high school as well. He will do AP Chem and AP Calculus BC next year, in 6th grade... and after that he will run out of AP courses in Math and Science. That is the problem. Since he just turn 10, there will be 7 more years or so before he can enter good colleges... so what should we do ?</p>

<p>I do know about various early entrance programs, but thought that it might be better to wait a few more years, if I can get him into top U with some more preparations.</p>

<p>So...I also need advise on EC. Since we are thinking of going by the normal route, he will have about 7 more years to develop EC. Please provide suggestions :</p>

<p>Let me tell you what he has on his plate right now:
He is pretty good with music, and won some small awards for local piano competitions. He is also attending music academy on weekends.
He is in the high school robotics team, and is preparing for US FIRST competition. His team also won some small awards in summer.
He has several mentors from local U working him on various topic in Math and Science. Since he is already pretty advance, I am wondering if I should deemphasize that part of it, and let him focus on other areas like sports, which he is lacking right now.</p>

<p>From my understanding, top universities like HYPSM are looking for balanced development, where the kid has to be good in at least one of the following area, right?</p>

<p>Currently, here's my assessment of my 10 year old :
1. Academic - Good
2. Music - Good
3. Sports - Minimal
4. Community Service - None</p>

<p>How important are 3 and 4 for college entrance... and what should I do? After taking AP Bio, my son has indicate very strong interest in medical sciences. He has indicated interests in several summer internship, but I know he would most likely be rejected because of his age. </p>

<p>So far, my son is extremely happy kid, who is socially well adjusted. The only problems is that most of his friends are high school seniors, who left for college... and he is with a brand new bunch of seniors each year in his AP classes.</p>

<p>What other aspect of his development should I pay attention to? Any advise from parents who have experiences with kids in top unversities are most welcome. Please help me understand the rules of the game. :)</p>

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<p>I’ll take a jab at this. First of all…this child is TEN years old. I think it’s important for him to do “ten year old things” as well as things that may be of interest and challenge him. At this point, I wouldn’t be doing ANYTHING to help him get accepted into an Ivy League college. I would be encouraging him to do things HE enjoys doing. ECs need to be things the KID likes, not a menu that someone thinks will be of consideration to the Ivy League. Perhaps he can find some social connections with kids other than high school seniors in the activities he enjoys doing. Re: community service and sports…again, your kid should be doing these things because they are of interest to HIM. At the age of 10, I would venture that most “community service” is generated through activities like scouts, or the like…not individually. </p>

<p>I guess what I’m saying is continue to allow your child to be challenged academically. Let the EC issue be things HE chooses (and you know…if he only chooses one thing with passion…that’s fine). Don’t worry (yet) about college decisions or things for the “resume” that will get him into college. Help him be a TEN year old.</p>

<p>My son went to a college ranked about 60…that’s pretty high. We didn’t even THINK about college until he was in the 10th grade.</p>

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<p>I’ve seen “normal” kids getting into HYPSM at the age of 16. Your son may be able to get in as a 15yo. So the time you have to wait may be shorter than you think.</p>

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<p>I agree with Thumper. Let him be 10. Right now friends are important. My guess is even though he’s capable intellectually of doing the work that older kids are doing, emotionally he’s probably like a more mature 10 year old. Let him do what he enjoys in terms of non-academic pursuits and take another look at the picture in 3-4 years. I’d be more focused as a parent on keeping him academically challenged as he grows physically and socially and worrying less what he does outside academics that will position him for a great university or college. If he continues to mature intellectually there will be many great colleges and universities that will welcome him.</p>

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<p>You didn’t make a mistake accelerating him in math and science. To answer your question, it’s very common for advanced students to start taking a few classes at the university. So maybe he could do that. I’ve heard of a lot of MIT students who took like a year of university classes.
If you’re in the right state, he could attend a math and science academy. He could take college level classes like organic chemistry, biochemistry, number theory, etc, yet still be normal there. They’ve had kids as young as 12 who are as advanced as your son. And then there would also be opportunities to become well-rounded as well.</p>

<p>Forget about community service and other things that will make him look good for ivies. He’s too smart for that crap. If he WANTS to do that, then that’s great. But your son has so much intellectual firepower, the most important thing is to sustain his passion for learning.</p>

<p>Even if going to the best medical school is your goal, he is better off finishing college and then going abroad and doing community service later rather than the mickey mouse community service most high schoolers stuff into their schedules.</p>

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<p>Since your child is one in a million in terms of his accomplishments, you can’t expect your school system to have a program in place to handle such an accelerated kid. He (and you) will have to make his plans. It sounds like your school administration has been very generous in working out a schedule for him, so I would continue to work with them, perhaps by finding a mentor among the AP teachers, or the gifted program administrator. </p>

<p>Here are some ideas from other highly-accelerated cases that may help you:
I had a relative who graduated from grammar school at age 11. Her mother sent her to a music college for a year so she didn’t have to tackle high school at such a young age. </p>

<p>Our school district has let accelerated kids retake AP Courses, not by covering the same material, but by being enrolled in the class and mostly working on special projects with the help of the teacher. </p>

<p>For his social development, he could take courses at something like CTD (Northwestern) or CTY (Johns Hopkins) or EPGY. Some of these are summer course, others are online. [Art</a> of Problem Solving](<a href=“http://www.artofproblemsolving.com%5DArt”>http://www.artofproblemsolving.com) is a math website where he might find some peers and get some good information. </p>

<p>You should be conscious of burnout in such a young child. He has a great deal to handle, and the stress of his work will show in different ways as he gets older and goes through puberty. This is very important to consider - you are not just raising a genius, you are raising a whole child. Boy Scouts, or AYSO Soccer or a baseball league where everyone plays would be a good balance to his crush of studies. And if he wants to take less demanding courses, or repeat something, or spend 100 hours building a robot, let him. As you’ve mentioned, there is almost no place for him to rush to at his age.</p>

<p>Your son might like to read about this boy, who entered college at 10 and medical school at 12.
[CNN.com</a> - 12-year-old begins medical school - Aug. 26, 2003](<a href=“http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/08/25/sprj.sch.wonder.kid.ap/]CNN.com”>http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/08/25/sprj.sch.wonder.kid.ap/)</p>

<p>Please note that he did not attend a highly-ranked college, but one that wanted him and would support him. He also needed to be close to home since no one so young can live in the dorms.</p>

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<p>Your S has so much intellectual capital, I don’t think he needs to add competitive sports to his menu for the sake of college entry or scholarships. But he needs to find some relationship to his physicality. Perhaps you can seek some initial lessons to find a non-competitive, personal sport that he’ll be able to schedule on his own time in h.s. and throughout his life, such as:
swimming, cross-country skiing, tumbling/gymanastics, dance, yoga, or maybe a pair sport such as tennis. I keep reading about how the team sports, while promoting competitive excellence, have the downside of scheduling kids during dinnertimes when family closeness might benefit your S more. I’m suggesting: for sport, find something personal, where you can control the timing to participate, and he isn’t judged and measure constantly. </p>

<p>I was very serious when I said dance; my BIL chose ballet because he was short, yet he knew all the most beautiful girls in town. My two S’s were the lone boys in a few tap and jazz-dance classes. They said it was crazy fun, especially since they also had some music training, like your S. Imagine expressing all that rhythm – but through one’s body. There’s also Asian dance, Irish stepdancing for kids in some communities, and it’s all good exercise with beautiful music. </p>

<p>My BIL and sons did not even listen to foolish comments people made about their masculinity when they took dance. “Football players study ballet,” we told them and they repeated it. Or as my BIL says, “I was surrounded by the most beautiful girls in the city, while the baseball players were making fun of me…nuts to them!” Sadly, boys who study dance get teased, but as parents you can give him a few zinger lines to respond. It’s so stupid, that nobody who teases ever has a good comeback. No reason not to take dance, IF he likes it; but just deal with teasing before it happens, because it will.</p>

<p>Something else to experiment with is to see if your S enjoys acting in a youth theater or school play, whether onstage as an actor or backstage doing technical work (lighting, props..). The feeling there is one of community supportiveness to make the job happen together. Many kids bewilder their parents by discovering theater as an EC, but it just gives them friends in an exciting, disciplined task. Learning to work together is important, and team sports aren’t the only place to experience that. Once college came along, my theater-eager kids always had important things to do on evenings and weekends (rehearsals, productions) while others drank too much. It occupied them in the evenings, so they’d stop to say “hi” at these parties on their way to rehearse, but had a social life outside of what you read about re; partying on campus. They were popular, because everyone comes to see the play. SOmething to consider. At your S’s age there might be a community theater advertising for help needed in acting or backstage work. </p>

<p>Community service could actually be blended with things he already does. For example, if he enjoys playing music, can he take his instrument with him once monthly to a nursing home? If it’s piano, they usually have one right there.
If he did this music simply to soothe another person’s soul, rather than to perform or compete for a prize, it’s a community service and might fill his heart, too. No need for him to rack up many hours at his tender age, but he could also try this once to see how it feels, and in h.s. that could become his community service. </p>

<p>Good luck. My cousin had these kinds of math gifts, and ended up going to Harvard at age 15 because he ran out of math courses at JHU graduate school, so there was nothing more to take in his home city. But he had no other developed skills outside of academics that I could see, and I think it was hard for him. You are wise to look for a well-rounded life for your S so he can become a happy person as well as a productive young genius. </p>

<p>DOn’t forget, too, that family conversations and shared times are something you can always offer. When some middle schoolers were polled (I can’t cite the source, just remember hearing of it), “What do you want most from your parents?” instead of answering a list of things or even opportunities, the most answered, “More time with them.”</p>

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<p>I wouldn’t push community service on the kid. I’m sure that your town has various activities that kids can participate in (sports, theater, etc.) Show him a list of stuff and if he wants to participate then let him. If not, then don’t worry about it. </p>

<p>To adress Paying3tuitions’ point, if he gets to college in his late teens and feels like he is not well-rounded, he can always start other activities at that point. I mean, if he wants to do community service at 15, does he need to practice that at 10?</p>

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<p>I don’t think you did anything wrong. Your child is very gifted and has unique needs. Read the bio of Noam Elkies, the youngest professor (26) Harvard ever tenured. Maybe even email him seeking advice. </p>

<p>[Noam</a> Elkies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Elkies]Noam”>Noam Elkies - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>I wouldn’t worry about EC’s, just let him do what he likes and be 10. Let him try a bunch of different things. For Math and Science, however, you should check out EPGY, epgy.stanford.edu. Hopefully, his school will allow him to do this during the day when the rest of the class is doing math and science. </p>

<p>Someone like your son could go most of the way through an undergraduate math and physics curriculum. Stanford counts the credits if he enrolls there, and if he does that starting at such a young age, it’s hard for me to believe that he wouldn’t ultimately be admitted. Otherwise he could go right to Oxford or Cambridge who don’t care about EC’s.</p>

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<p>^^I agree with the thrust of your post, but I don’t think EPGY gets that advanced. I could be wrong, though. But there are other ways to cover the math/physics undergrad curriculum without full-time enrollment in college.</p>

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<p>Look up MIT Opencourseware.</p>

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<p>collegealum314, I think you’re wrong, check it out.</p>

<p>[Education</a> Program for Gifted Youth](<a href=“http://epgy.stanford.edu%5DEducation”>http://epgy.stanford.edu)</p>

<p>For math beyond calculus,
M51A Linear Algebra
M52A Multivariable Differential Calculus
M52B Multivariable Integral Calculus
M53A Differential Equations
M106 Complex Analysis
M109 Modern Algebra
M115 Real Analysis
M131 Partial Differential Equations
M146 Point-Set Topology
M152 Number Theory
M157 Introduction to Logic</p>

<p>For Physics beyond AP Physics C
P055 Light and Heat
P070 Modern Physics
P110 Intermediate Mechanics I
P111 Intermediate Mechanics II
P120 Intermediate Electricity and Magnetism I
P121 Intermediate Electricity and Magnetism II
P130 Introduction to Quantum Mechanics</p>

<p>“The Stanford University Committee on Academic Achievement and Accreditation has decided that students who complete courses at the University level who subsequently matriculate at Stanford University will be allowed to apply those courses to their undergraduate degree.”</p>

<p>There’s also great computer science and very theoretical math at [eIMACS:</a> Home](<a href=“http://www.eimacs.com%5DeIMACS:”>http://www.eimacs.com)</p>

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<p>He can be a normal 10 year-old and still be very advanced in math & science. In fact, I would guess that he needs math & science at HIS level (not that of his age peers) in order to be happy. He can take more advanced classes through EPGY and he is fortunate enough to have mentors from the local uni. He should continue working with these mentors. They may introduce him to other colleagues as the need arises.
S was 13 when he took AP classes with 18 year-olds, not 10; but he was happy and welcomed. He was 14 when he began taking college classes, and again, he was accepted.
Besides EPGY, he can look up the MIT Opencourseware.
An MIT education is now just a click away
[MIT</a> opens its academic doors to all online - The Boston Globe](<a href=“http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2007/12/01/an_mit_education_is_now_just_a_click_away/]MIT”>http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2007/12/01/an_mit_education_is_now_just_a_click_away/)
[Free</a> Online Course Materials | MIT OpenCourseWare](<a href=“http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/home/home/index.htm]Free”>http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/home/home/index.htm)
The website has links to high school courses as well as regular MIT courses.</p>

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<p>You’ve got some unique challenges in front of you. Your son has the intellect many adults would be envious of, but he’s still a 10 year old. Don’t worry about extracurriculars, other than as things he would enjoy doing, whether it’s Little League, music, hiking, or whatever.</p>

<p>I attended college with some kids who start college at 15. It was hard for them, because they weren’t ready for serious dating relationships, the party scene, and some of the other things that freshman deal with. </p>

<p>In addition to the HPY constellation, since he clearly has strong math/physics skills, you should consider schools like MIT, Stanford, CalTech and Johns Hopkins, UChicago. One of the good things about these schools is that they are familiar with the phenomenon of talented youngsters.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

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<p>–“My guess is even though he’s capable intellectually of doing the work that older kids are doing, emotionally he’s probably like a more mature 10 year old.”–</p>

<p>Actually, you probably know that children as gifted as yours are often less mature than other kids socially and emotionally and can often be socially isolated because they just don’t think like other kids their own age. Midwesterner had some nice ideas for getting him hooked up with other kids. </p>

<p>And as for the ECs. I don’t think you have to worry much about his ECs! Just encourage him to do things that nourish his mind/body/heart.</p>

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<p>You’ve received a lot of good replies, and I especially commend the posts by midwesterner, ClassicRockerDad, and marite to your attention. If your child is as you describe, you would find it helpful to make an application to the [Davidson</a> Young Scholars](<a href=“Davidson Institute | Programs & Support for the Profoundly Gifted”>Davidson Institute | Programs & Support for the Profoundly Gifted) program, which provides professional services and parent-to-parent (and child-to-child) networking for children with similar issues. College early may make sense, or college at approximately the usual age (what my oldest son has in mind) may make sense. The best way to learn about the trade-offs of different college choices is to talk with other parents who have dealt with those trade-offs, both here and through the communication channels of the Davidson Young Scholar program. </p>

<p>Best wishes to your son. As far as summer programs go, he should apply for what looks interesting and see what happens. Maybe he will be an unusually young participant in some summer program. (My son has been, once or twice, and has been a normal-age participant in some other programs.)</p>

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<p>I don’t know about gifted children being less mature than other kids socially and emotionally; however, if they are fascinated by linear algebra, they may not be able to relate to kids who are struggling with their times tables. But that’s not a sign of immaturity. </p>

<p>I do agree that because of his young age, he needs not follow a linear course of study. He can spend a whole year trying to build a better mousetrap or investigating the fauna in his backyard and not feel that he is falling behind.</p>

<p>My S had no trouble relating with his age peers over some things and with students quite a few years older than he over more academic activities (like the Science Team and the Robotics team).</p>

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<p>I just want to reiterate what others have said. You’ve done nothing wrong by accelerating in math and science. My only regret is I didn’t push the school system harder. My son did some acceleration, but he would have been happier with more acceleration earlier. I like EPGY, but my son particularly when he was younger, thought it was more enjoyable to be in a class with other kids - even if they were several years older than he was. </p>

<p>It’s always hard to know what to do with a radically accelerated kid. There are no perfect solutions. I have one friend who has been homeschooling and her 12 year old is taking several college classes. The trade off is that the college is not a big name college, but rather something that Mom can conveniently drive him to and that didn’t mind having a kid. There are plenty of studies that show that Ivy league college graduates do no better than ones from lesser know places. There are millions of threads here on CC about how most CEOs have degrees from state colleges.</p>

<p>For outside school find things your son likes. For sports my sons played soccer until it got too serious and time-consuming. It’s okay to try things and drop them. Many of the bright kids I know seem to like individual sports like swimming, tennis and track better than team sports, but that’s certainly not set in stone.Theater is something that some kids just love - it’s a great time sink if he likes it. The emphasis in my opinion should be in finding activities that your son enjoys and will enjoy for a lifetime that will keep him healthy - not as a boost for college admissions.</p>

<p>Other activities to consider… My kids played competitive chess for several years, but didn’t really want to make the commitment to be top level players - that’s okay - they play well enough to enjoy it. My husband and I got a lot out of Scouting - I’ve regretted that my kids never gave it a try. They both played with music groups at school and the younger son has continued through high school. I’ve always followed my kids lead in terms of interests. My older son became fascinated with computer programming at 8 or 9 and taught himself enough to take AP Computer Programming as a freshman.</p>

<p>I really don’t believe you should worry about what colleges are looking for. Try to meet your child’s needs and when he seems ready for college find ones that want him. Some care about community service - many don’t. Some are well known for taking a handful of younger kids some don’t. My husband’s college roommate by the way was a 15 year old freshman at Harvard who majored in math. I didn’t meet him till he was a 16 year old sophomore and while he was in some ways a little unsophisticated I attributed it to his geekiness, I had no idea he was so young, and only found out many years later.</p>

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<p>My son is high achieving in math and science, not nearly as accelerated as yours though. Sort of a typical “math geek.” I try very hard to push him into social activities…ANYTHING involving contact with other kids his age. He’s going to a summer camp this summer that has a lot of arts, drama, sports, no academics.</p>

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<p>I second looking into the Davidson Institute. Here is the link to the homepage.<br>
[Davidson</a> Institute ~ For Talent Development ~](<a href=“Davidson Institute | Programs & Support for the Profoundly Gifted”>http://www.ditd.org/)
Lots and lots of info and support for parents.</p>