Is It Possible to Have Too Much Math?

Parent Cafe
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<p>I have a seven year old who is uncommonly mathy and in the middle of Beginning Algebra through Stanford's self-paced EPGY. (We would have done AOPS pre-algebra or algebra, but I don't think my son is ready for 90 minute classes or fast typing.) I see that AOPS offers many math courses outside of the common offerings, but I don't think there are enough to fill the next 11 years. If my son takes too many math courses at the local university, will this hurt his chances of admission or eligibility for admission as a freshman to a more rigorous school (Ivy League, MIT, Caltech, etc.) when he's eighteen?</p>

<p>I know it seems strange to ask about something that is so many years away, but the answer would affect what we are doing right now.</p>

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<p>I think I would just let him proceed at his own pace and cross that bridge when you get there. </p>

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<p>Please for the love of God don’t hold him back when he’s 7 years old because you’re worried about what colleges will think when he’s 18!</p>

<p>That said, if you’re living in Ypsi (purely a guess based on how similar your username is to the city name), I knew plenty of people from high school who took math classes at Michigan and went on to better schools elsewhere. Michigan is really nice in that none of the math classes have prerequisites so he can take whatever, even PhD classes, while he’s in high school. They’ve also got a good series when he gets up to it, the 295-296-395-396-512-513 math series, which is a very rigorous proof based intro series (allegedly one of the strongest in the country - though I didn’t take it so I can’t tell you much about it). When I was a freshman there, apparently there was a 12 year old in it. </p>

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<p>I wouldn’t hold him back. I would consider doing competition or puzzle type math at least half the time though if too much math could be a problem.</p>

<p>I’m not in Yspi; my username has nothing to do with me. We’re near a major state university, but I don’t think it’s in the same tier as Michigan.</p>

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<p>I agree that I would not hold him back. Let him set the pace, but I might also look at other ways to keep his mathy brain happy other than just doing a linear progression through the curriculum. Don’t neglect music, (where math kids seem to excel) and introductions to architecture, construction, and fun physics experiments in science.
Being able to apply some of the math he’s learning will really reinforce it and keep him from getting too burned out on paper and pencil activities. </p>

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<p>But as a direct answer, no, I don’t think it will hurt him if he has taken college courses before he applies to a university as long as he hasn’t officially, or unofficially, graduated high school. A lot of students take courses at their local universities along with their high school classes for a variety of reasons.</p>

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<p>JHU-CTY has great on-line self-directed math courses:</p>

<p><a href=“http://cty.jhu.edu/ctyonline/courses/mathematics/”>http://cty.jhu.edu/ctyonline/courses/mathematics/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Of course it won’t hurt him to be that advanced in math! There will be plenty of opportunities for a kid that gifted as he gets older.</p>

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<p>Does anyone know what schools count as having unofficially graduated?</p>

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<p>I don’t have much to add except I love the description “uncommonly mathy” – such a great, refreshing descriptor. I also agree with the others to let him pace himself…it’s the best gift you can give him and no, I don’t think it will impact whatever point he is at when he applies for colleges. </p>

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<p>No, it won’t hurt the OP’s son. I know one MIT undergrad in the mid-2000s who was a repeat Putnam fellow (the major college math competition) had taken 4 years of classes at U. of Wisconsin-Madison. Just don’t enroll in a degree program.</p>

<p>Don’t hold him back for this or whatever reason you may think of that colleges may not like it, even if it were true.</p>

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<p>I had an uncommonly mathy guy - at about seven he got interested in programming as dh was doing a project at home using Visual Basic and he started looking over his shoulder. He ended up getting sucked into programming and stopped zipping quite so fast through online math classes. </p>

<p>One thing we found, is my son got interested in all sorts of math that is not part of the normal curriculum. There are lots of fun books out there. Here are some I remember he enjoyed:

  • The Number Devil: A Mathematical Adventure by Hans Magnus Enzensberger
  • The Adventures of Penrose the Mathematical Cat Paperback by Theoni Pappas (several in this series)
  • Sideways Arithmetic from the Wayside School - Louis Sachar (several in this series)
  • 1000 Play Thinks by Ivan Moscovich - probably the best book of visual math puzzles ever</p>

<p>A little later in elementary school (4th or 5th grade)<br>

  • Mathematics: A Human Endeavor by Harold R. Jacobs
  • The Book of Numbers by John H. Conway and Richard Guy
  • In Code: A Mathematical Journey by Sarah Flannery </p>

<p>This is very old, but still up on the web! <a href=“http://www.c3.lanl.gov/mega-math/”>http://www.c3.lanl.gov/mega-math/&lt;/a&gt; (My son loved the Hotel Infinity)</p>

<p>At any rate, don’t worry about colleges, it will work itself out, but do let your kid follow his interests.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the information. </p>

<p>This is the exact scenario I was worried wouldn’t be allowed, so now my mind is at ease: </p>

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<p>I feel like the worst parent on this board. My sons Rabbi turned him on to the internet in 1st or 2nd grade. I had no idea. I never bought him a book on mathematics. At best, we learned how to play Simm games. Somehow or other, my son learned about math, borrowed books on Calculus, started a math club in HS, and did everything without my help or even knowledge. I didn’t know what AIME meant. At age 7, I would not even have thought of him as “mathy”, yet have tried to encourage this interest. All I can say is to relax, let him explore at his own pace, and see what develops. If he is truly gifted, he will find his way. At age 7, his social developent is as important as his math development.</p>

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<p>1) Don’t hold him back
2) Don’t push
3) Don’t categorize or narrow your son’s interests by the qualities you see now.</p>

<p>By #2 and #3, I mean, don’t get the sense that your son is a budding math genius and it is your obligation to buy a bunch of software or enroll him in all sorts of programs. Just let the interest naturally develop, but at the same time encourage exploration of other areas and remember that the interests of a 7 year old can change and develop over time. </p>

<p>I mean, it is possible that your son’s math talents will continue to develop at a pace far beyond his years – but it is also possible that his 7 year old brain won’t be quite able to fathom some of the more difficult concepts beyond basic algebra and geometry – and that his interests will diverge. For example, maybe he will get as far as he is comfortable with the EPGY algebra course, and then develop an interest in music or electronics or computer programming or whatever. </p>

<p>So let him be 7. </p>

<p>I think it’s wonderful when a kid shows an early talent, but it can be a mistake if at a young age everyone starts to see the child through the lens of that talent. The child can then become constrained by parental expectations, and lose out on opportunity to explore different interests as he grows. So your 7-year old “mathy” kid could grow into a 9-year old who wants Karate lessons or a 12 year old who is fascinated by archeology. You never know. </p>

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<p>I’m not mapping out his future career. I’m providing his math courses as he needs them and needed to know if there would be any reason to add in other things to slow the progression through his regular school math. Thanks for the info.</p>

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<p>Hi OP,</p>

<p>I agree with others to follow your son’s lead in his love for math. </p>

<p>I have a son who also started algebra at age 7, but we were much more unstructured/unschoolish. (We homeschool) My son did what is termed “self-directed learning”. I let him do what he wanted with math and added structure when I couldn’t help him (which was by 6th grade). I didn’t know what I was doing, to be honest. </p>

<p>His path went like this:</p>

<p>Began algebra in 2nd grade and continued into 3rd. He read lots of books about math including ones mentioned above.</p>

<p>Found a local prof. who was teaching honors geometry to a group of homeschoolers, so my son took his semester long geometry class in 4th grade.</p>

<p>Didn’t know what I was doing so he went through another algebra book in 5th grade, still reading lots of math books like Cartoon Guide to Statistics, Math for the Real World, and so on.</p>

<p>6th grade found me asking my dad to tutor him in Alg II/Trig but my dad got sick, and my son just unschooled. He and a group of students also did some math from MathCounts books that year.</p>

<p>7th grade, I found a tutor who started working with him on Calculus and told me he should take Calc at the local UC. I didn’t want that and neither did he, so he ended up taking pre-calc. online through the local community college that spring.</p>

<p>He also did MathCounts, getting into the top 8 of our large city, but he didn’t have anyone to help him (his tutor said he couldn’t help him anymore), so he lost interest in math competitions.</p>

<p>In 8th grade, he took Calc I online at the local CC and then took a semester off of formal math. He still continued to read math books on his own.</p>

<p>In 9th grade, he went on campus and did Calc II and Calc III. </p>

<p>In 10th grade he did Linear Alg. and Dif. Equations at the local CC. He was done with all the CC math except for Discrete Math but he wasn’t interested in that.</p>

<p>Also in 10th, I found an online tutor/mentor, who worked with him on Dif Equations, Dynamical Systems, and Real Analysis in a very unschoolish and slow manner, and he worked with him for 2 1/2 years; that was his “formal” math for the last 2 years of high school.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, I encouraged him to try the local math circle in 10th grade since he needed a challenge. He agreed to go and that became a great place for him to be challenged. He did AMC, AIME, ARML, and the local math olympiad. He made a lot of friends there and it kept him challenged.</p>

<p>He also did a lot of college physics during high school and was actually more advanced in physics than math during high school.</p>

<p>Fast forward to today: He’s a math major at MIT, finishing his sophomore year. He got transfer credit for his CC math and was able to start with upper division math upon arrival. He’s now finishing all the math requirements for his math degree this semester.</p>

<p>I will say this-my son has a natural intuition about math and he’s a very fast thinker. However, because he started math competitions relatively late compared to most mathletes, he was lacking some of those skills and some knowledge that others had-things like number theory, probability, and other topics, so he was at a bit of a disadvantage in that way, but he’s obviously done well enough and loves MIT.</p>

<p>I’d say if a kid enjoys Art of Problem Solving materials or math competitions, they should do them earlier, but never force a student to do them.</p>

<p>I followed his lead for many years until it became apparent he needed more challenge. He’s so glad I “made” him try out the math circle as he has many friends at MIT from the very same math circle.</p>

<p>HTH and have fun with your mathy kid! :-)</p>

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<p>PS. I agee with the comment about social development, but I never had that worry because my MIT son is a super extrovert and he exhausted me with all his social activities. I was sure glad he got his license the morning he turned 16! LOL!</p>

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<p>We homeschool also, but there are so many groups and activities that I think he ends up socializing more than he would if we put him in school. Heh.</p>

<p>He does EPGY for twenty minutes a day as his official, school math. The rest he studies on his own. He loves reading about math, but he loves astronomy even more. I make our formal school day extremely short so that the rest of the day is open for exploring whatever he wants or hitting the park.</p>

<p>Thanks for your post, sbjdorlo. Helpful and interesting to see what a similar kid went on to do.</p>

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<p>Meanwhile, my son got rejected from MIT. :smiley: (But he loved Carnegie Mellon, we have no regrets he’s in his dream job at Google.) He liked Math Counts, but while he qualified for AIME never scored that well. I completely agree with Calmom, you want your kid to be pulling you not you pushing him, but it’s sometimes hard to tell which is which. One of the best books I have read on the subject is *Searching for Bobby Fischer. *It’s about the delicate dance of recognizing talent, nurturing it and trying not to go overboard. (And recognizing and forgiving yourself if you do go overboard. Most kids are pretty resilient and resistant to parents getting too enthusiastic.) Enjoy your kid!</p>

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<p>mathmom, my son must have read that book a dozen times. I never read it but he obviously was fascinated with it. I always thought it was just about chess (he was a competitive chess player) but obviously, it was much more than that.</p>