<p>The only comment I will add is there is a strong correlation between hi IQ and learning differences,[ the higher the IQ the greater the chance of having some sort of learning difference- it is estimated that 25% of the gifted population suffer from LD’s of some sort- hence the term twice gifted] though really bright learners can mask or unconsciously compensate until they reach college, when their LD’s are unmasked by the sheer amount of organized thinking, planning, and work that is required of college students.</p>
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<p>OK. He can buckle down and do the work if someone else sets up the schedule and makes sure everyone follows it. But college students who are not recruited athletes don’t have study halls. They are expected to organize their own studying. This boy has thus far not shown the ability to study independently. So far, for now, he needs someone else to set up a structure and make sure he follows it. It doesn’t matter whether you label that symptom as a disorder or disability; the symptom is there no matter what you call it.</p>
<p>"This boy has thus far not shown the ability to study independently.???
Hold the phone Cardinal! Read what his mom said in the first post…</p>
<p>“He has some significant achievements in a science, and he has taken two AP courses in science, and scored “5” on the exams. He spends a great deal of time learning on his own and pursuing a science-related hobby.”</p>
<p>These are NOT indications of a boy who has Not shown the ability to study independently!! On the contrary…He sounds much more like a truly gifted student who is bored out of his mind with typical HS busy work.</p>
<p>Look. I’m not saying he’s stupid. I’m not saying he’s lazy. I’m not saying he can’t do work when he feels like focusing on it. </p>
<p>But college students have to do their homework! Not just the interesting homework, not just when they get around to it, not just when it’s interesting. They have to do it regularly, and they have to study regularly, normally without someone standing over them and making them do it. He’s not doing that. I get that he’s way smarter than the other kids in his classes, but that by itself is not going to cut it in college, particularly if he’s at a college where all the other kids are smart too. Maybe if he arrived at college he’d reverse his trend. Depending on him reversing his trend, in my view, is risky.</p>
<p>What will he do if he has to do the dreaded group project?</p>
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<p>Because he doesn’t have to do the homework in high school to learn the material. And that – learning the material – is generally the point of homework in high school. Not to demonstrate mastery of the material, but to learn it.</p>
<p>And as a mom with a gifted kid who consciously chose not to do homework in certain subjects in high school – because he didn’t need to do the homework to learn the material – I don’t find it impossible at all to believe the OP’s son is bored.</p>
<p>Unlike the OP’s son, my son did care about his grades. He knew or figured out how much homework he could blow off and still get a B in math, for example. Homework accounted for 10% of his grade in math, so he could blow off all his homework so long as he got 100% on all his other work; he knew this, didn’t do the homework, and got a B in the class.</p>
<p>I have heard but do not have personal experience that The Phelps School outside of Philadelphia for boys works well with underachieving and demoralized students.</p>
<p>I’m sure he’s bored out of his mind. I have no doubt about that.</p>
<p>You could be right, Owlice. We come at this from different perspectives. Your gifted son carefully managed his work and did just what he needed to do. When the demands got harder in college, he started doing more. Good for him.</p>
<p>I, on the other hand, was a bright student with undiagnosed ADD, who managed to slip through high school with minimal work and great test scores. When I got to college, I crashed and burned. I had never had to organize myself and work hard. I didn’t manage to do it in college.</p>
<p>Here’s why I think the OP’s son is more like me than like Owlice’s son: Owlice’s son carefully managed his workload. He set goals (a B in math, for example) and did just enough to achieve them, skipping the rest of the tedium that was unnecessary for his learning. Unless the OP’s son has set a goal of a D+ average, he is not managing his workload by doing just enough work. He’s doing too little to achieve the goals that he says he has.</p>
<p>PRJ, Yes, like your daughter, my son thrived socially as well as intellectually when he had the opportunity to be with intellectual peers, at CTY. </p>
<p>CardinalFang, I am pretty sure that ADD is part of the picture. This was the strong opinion of a therapist who saw DS for a year, starting in 9th grade. And after reading a book he recommended, I have to agree. He never had the hyperactivity part, so this was not picked up until very late. I do have the concerns you mentioned about “bright slackers.” It is not clear how he would do in a challenging and stimulating educational environment, because I believe that his current underachievement is a combination of “can’t” and “won’t.” And I share your doubts that DS would have the necessary motivation to succeed in homeschooling.</p>
<p>owlice, One thing that worked in his favor at CTY was that all work was done in the classroom, and all materials were left in the classroom. When I heard this during the parents’ session the first day of his first year there, I thought with relief that he would not be able to lose or forget things. CTY courses, although much more demanding academically than HS courses, are not at all demanding in terms of time and paper management.</p>
<p>I should say that DS did get near-perfect grades in two science classes last year. He did have outside work to do, and he did it very well - thus, the grades. In math, he had middling grades, the average of very high test scores and no homework. He writes quite well and gets good marks on in-class assignments (thinking of history and English here).</p>
<p>CardinalFang, I am not really worried about his keeping up with material in college (if he ever gets there). He does whatever is necessary to thoroughly learn the material. There will not be a problem with his keeping up with the reading for history, etc. I do worry about his ability to manage multiple classes, some of which will require long papers and other long-term assignments.</p>
<p>CF and PRJ, There may well be a deficit; if so, it is something subtle that did not show up until very late. I would not be at all surprised if he has a problem with executive function, or something related to that. </p>
<p>GeekMom, I think that “refusing to play the game” is part of the stew. I know that he is demoralized by the grade-grubbing, and the rampant cheating. </p>
<p>blossom, I think that at CTY, the “off-hours” from 3-7 (“mandatory fun”) are considered punishment, not the evening lab hours! And I am afraid that there could be some depression now.</p>
<p>menlopark, Yes, he can and does study independently. A few years ago, I realized that he had, essentially, arranged self-study replacements for all his major courses. I should have seen the light and started homeschooling him then.</p>
<p>Thank you, shelley. I will look into the Phelps School.</p>
<p>CardinalFang, You’ve put your finger on something important - the gap between my son’s intentions and his actions. I wish he were more like owlice’s son in that way.</p>
<p>I find part of the truth in almost every opinion expressed here. I think that my son’s problems have multiple sources, and we are going to have to sort things out. At the moment, I’m exhausted to the point that I can’t think clearly any more. I will re-read all these posts tomorrow. Thank you all, very much.</p>
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<p>This is it, in a nutshell. A bright student with inattentive ADD has trouble with time management and paper management. Forgets deadlines? Papers crumpled up in backpack? Room looks like a tornado hit it? Sometimes does homework but forgets to hand it in? Trouble managing multiple deadlines for different classes? Always late? Exceptional ability to concentrate on something he likes for hours? Can’t get started on some routine task that would take five minutes if he only got going? Can’t manage a longterm assignment (like a paper) that requires the student to break the task up into parts and do them over a period of time? These are signs of inattentive ADD.</p>
<p>And Tearing, hang in there. I know it’s tough to be a parent of a kid like this. Sending good thoughts your way.</p>
<p>“This is it, in a nutshell. A bright student with inattentive ADD has trouble with time management and paper management. Forgets deadlines? Papers crumpled up in backpack? Room looks like a tornado hit it? Sometimes does homework but forgets to hand it in? Trouble managing multiple deadlines for different classes? Always late? Exceptional ability to concentrate on something he likes for hours? Can’t get started on some routine task that would take five minutes if he only got going? Can’t manage a longterm assignment (like a paper) that requires the student to break the task up into parts and do them over a period of time? These are signs of inattentive ADD.”</p>
<p>Have you been spying on this house, CardinalFang?</p>
<p>TMHO - my thoughts exactly! </p>
<p>Cardinal Fang - I had no idea you knew my D (or had seen her room :eek:)!</p>
<p>I didn’t realize how big an issue the crumpled papers in the backpack and messy room was until this year when my son (thanks to an “academic coach”) now has all notebooks for each subject color coded; he does daily housekeeping to put papers in files; and his desk is cleared so that ONLY school work is allowed on it (this last rule is beginning to slip…). His room is still pretty much a mess, but the rest of the stuff seems to be working.</p>
<p>We also have been doing by trial and error figuring out the best work planner system for him; because he was getting daily assignments done, but totally forgetting about the longer term assignments that were required for one class. Instead of the school planner, I bought him a calendar that has a daily and weekly visual that he can see at once. </p>
<p>He also each night now writes down the time he plans to spend on each assignment, and he’s working on gauging the actual time with the expected time. This is because he has a “hyperfocusing” issue where he gets very caught up in minutiae (a strength and a weakness - because it’s part of his ability to think so deeply, but it also makes it hard to get things done!). </p>
<p>I have to say that it has been a long process to get us this far. The first step was finding a coach (I hate to say tutor because that’s not really what it is) who helped him “own” the need to seek help and to change. He tied it into his own sense of himself and his goals. For my son, this resonated with him, because he was missing out on some of the advanced class placements in which he belonged.</p>
<p>the other bit of advice that our coach gave was that it takes about six weeks to establish a new habit. This has been very helpful both in terms of seeing it as a manageable issue and in terms of my son making it work. For example, there was a week when it wasn’t convenient for him to get to the coach, but he insisted on going because he was in that six week window when he was adapting to new habits and wanted to go in for the reinforcement.</p>
<p>Boy, did I just give out alot of free advice that has cost us a fortune!! :-)</p>
<p>Although, my son’s working with a professional and not getting nagged by mom probably made it more effective. :-)</p>
<p>SDonCC, how did you find your coach?</p>
<p>How did you find the coach, SDon? We have another student working with my son at college, but the organizational coaching doesn’t seem to be happening as well as I’d like.</p>
<p>CardinalFang described two of my children. With the 1st we did all the testing, worked with the educational coach twice a week. Unfortunately what we found with our son was that he had a hard time translating what he was learning with the coach to being able or willing to make the changes to do it on his own. All the testing in the world and coaching will not change the educational outcome if the student is not willing to put in the hard work to make the changes. The same applies to accommodations in HS and in College. If the student is not willing to ask for help and use the resources available they are no help. The best program in the world will not work if the participant is not willing to do some hard work to change their behaviors.
With my youngest we thought about the testing. In the end we decided that she was not going to be willing to make the changes and to save the money. (we already had previous old testing and knew she had LD and ADD) With her we have seen that she is not willing to take the steps to get the A. She wanted a tutor who would help her with some of her subjects but more so with getting organized and executive functioning. We found a grad student. The student came over and they set up notebooks with tabs, assignment white board, a desk and HW area in a separate room with all the supplies at hand. They also made a filing system for returned work. They talked about the importance of having everything ready and in the backpack the night before and the backpack at the door. This being a good way to avoid getting to school and not having the HW or paper. They also talked about not studying in the cyclone of D’s bedroom. The novelty of being organized worked for about 3 weeks. Now when the tutor comes they work in the designated study area but every other night my D is back working in her bedroom with papers and textbooks scattered all over the room.
Cardinal Fang- you might ask around. My SIL works as a behavioral coach. She is a former teacher who has a counseling masters credential from the state of Ca, she also has completed her PhD in psychology but is not licensed as a therapist. She gets her referrals from a couple of psychologists who specialize in educational testing and from several psychiatrists.</p>
<p>Not sure how to ask around, Mom60. Fang Jr is 2000 miles away, in college.</p>
<p>I used a local tutoring company, that has people who work as subject tutors or as coaches, for those kids whose problems are not learning the information but in getting the work done. I agree with mom60, that the kid has to be willing to make changes. My son was ready to do so, but, again, the first coach helped him become willing to accept the necessary help. I also have an older son who was not, but I also did not find him the best help, either at the time, although he insists that even if I did, it wouldn’t have helped him… He’s also a “twice exceptional.”</p>
<p>My younger son also really wants to be in a challenging academic environment and to be able to succeed in college without mom’s nagging…While I’m a bit angry at how he fell through the cracks in our school, it actually was probably the best thing for him in the long run that he wasn’t in some of the right placements. He never again wants to be in a classroom where the teachers say that they want to hear from someone else besides him during discussions. He learned that it’s okay to get help, instead of sweeping things under the rug that he didn’t want to deal with. This is a great life lesson.</p>