<p>sorry, nrotc, but ucb has the big picture and is correct.</p>
<p>Sorry but my disagreement goes deep – and I have as big a picture as anybody; being in my 50s and married to a college professor.</p>
<p>In my observation, far more students fail to be sufficiently ambitious than apply to schools beyond their means. In fact, I do not know a single young person who applied to only elite colleges and being turned down was stuck with not going to college. No, that scenario is rare; very rare. Even if it happens, it is hardly a disaster; there is always next year. But it rarely happens.</p>
<p>Did somebody fail to notice that I recommend having a smart backup plan? Was that filtered out somehow?</p>
<p>If a person applies to a dream school with the knowledge that it is a dream, then makes a backup plan, it will not be a big disappointment if the applicant is not admitted or cannot afford it. Rather it will be accompanied by a sense that they did their best. What rots our soul is a sense that we could have done better but failed to try. The extra cost of applying to your one dream school is not a waste of either time or money. Going to a college which is inappropriate for you – or beneath your talent – is an HUGE waste of months (or years) of time and thousands of dollars.</p>
<p>Taking out significant college debt is clearly a bad idea. It is even worse when done for an education which poorly serves the student. That is a red herring, and not germane to this thread.</p>
<p>Why apply to several schools? Simple answer: most high school students do not know what they really want. Many have parents who hardly know any more than the student. Applying to several schools forces them to decide what they want, because they can compare schools instead of thinking that “college is college.” A choice is not a choice if there is only one option. It also allows students to compare tuition and aid packages. Plus, of course, it mitigates against the very disappointment which ucbalumnus seems so concerned about.</p>
<p>My plan works better for more students than any hand-wringing about students reaching too high.</p>
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<p>If there is no chance at all of admission and affordability, how can such an application not be a waste?</p>
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<p>How do you define “beneath your talent”?</p>
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<p>Wait until April, when the posts from students who cannot afford the colleges they are admitted to, or were rejected from their “safeties”, or do not actually like their “safeties”, or otherwise have results that leave them no good four year college choices, show up.</p>
<p>@usbalumnus</p>
<p>“No chance at all of admission and affordability” is a defeatest evasion. Perhaps somebody might stupidly apply to such a school, but with my approach they can give their one “dream college” a shot and then get on with their education if they are rejected. Lesson learned; that their dream school won’t take them – that alone is worth the time and money (for one school, mind you). Your approach is the educational equivalent of committing suicide in order to avoid being murdered. Nothing but defeatism.</p>
<p>“Rejected from their safeties or do not actually like their safeties”…
Huh?!
Are you implying that applying to safeties is a waste too? That by applying to a safety they reached too high? Seriously? Your argument is now obviously incoherent. I won’t bother the OP by responding to such silliness anymore.</p>
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<p>Obviously, you haven’t seen all of the postings by students with small budgets making lists of out-of-state publics that are not the large merit scholarship ones, and not UVA or UNC-CH (the two with good out-of-state financial aid) or the very low list price ones that may be within their small budgets. You might call it defeatist to admit that there is zero chance of such schools being affordable for those students with small budgets, but I call it realistic, so the student’s application effort and fees can be better spent on more realistic choices rather than those which the student cannot attend anyway.</p>
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<p>No, I meant that plenty of students do not correctly guess what can be a safety, so their “safeties” are not really safeties, much to their peril.</p>
<p>For many top students who qualify for need-based aid, the 50-60 selective, private, “full need” schools represent a good (possibly the best) balance of value and quality. However, for families in the upper middle income “donut hole”, that isn’t necessarily so. In particular, for students who need merit grants because their parents cannot cover the Expected Family Contribution, it may not be the case at all. </p>
<p>Here is a list of “full need” schools, plus a few others (marked in bold) that fall just a little short of covering full need:
<a href=“List of Colleges That Meet 100% of Financial Need”>http://www.thecollegesolution.com/list-of-colleges-that-meet-100-of-financial-need/</a></p>
<p>Many of these schools don’t give merit aid. Some do. Rochester and Tulane are good examples of those that do. A rule of thumb is that, if a school awards merit aid to N% of its students, then your qualifications should place you in the upper N% of enrolled students to have a good shot at the average (or better) merit award. That may be the case for the OP (with an ACT 33 + top 3% ranking) at Tulane and Rochester. If you have any doubts about your admission chances OR being able to afford the net cost, then it’s not a safety (although it still might be a good match/reach).</p>
<p>@ucbalumnus “…plenty of students do not correctly guess what can be a safety, so their “safeties” are not really safeties, much to their peril.” </p>
<p>This is PRECISELY why students should apply to at least five colleges (preferably more); an idea which you challenged! The more colleges a student applies to, the more likely they will get accepted to at least one they like. The schools should include private colleges (for merit aid) and in-state public universities (for low tuition). One of those five or more schools can be a dream school, if the student has one. My approach works while being both optimistic and realistic.</p>
<p>I am a firm believer in not having or promoting a dream school. If a student gets in and can’t afford it, what then? Will that student lay it on the parent’s shoulders because they weren’t willing to climb out on that $100K debt limb?</p>
<p>The OP is a HIGH REACH for Carnegie Mellon in Computer Science. Those of you who think otherwise have not looked closely enough. Here are the stats for admitted students in their College of Computer Science:
CR: 720-780 Math: 780-800 Wr: 720-780 Rank: 5% GPA: 3.85
Admission rate was 8.3% (4252 applied, 351 accepted).
They also prefer students who have taken Discrete Math before they arrive – OP didn’t mention that.</p>
<p>Penn State and Michigan are two of the top 10 most expensive OOS colleges in the country (UM is #1). Ohio State is a great option – top 30 computer science and $15k merit quite possible for OOS and they have reasonable OOS tuition. U Pittsburg has some OOS merit scholarships and a good CS program. </p>
<p>Boston U, USC, Case Western, Northeastern are all good private school CS programs and have some merit aid, I believe (not sure about BU).</p>
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<p>Would you say that five is necessary if the student’s first choice college has automatic admission criteria that the student fulfills (e.g. a top 7% Texas high school student whose first choice is a Texas public university, and not an impacted major or division)?</p>
<p>On the other hand, a poor student in some states like Pennsylvania might not find many of the in-state public universities affordable at all, due to high in-state costs and poor in-state financial aid, so it can be risky to make the assumption that they are affordable based on being in-state public universities. And merit scholarships are most likely found at schools that are probably admission safeties (probably those which you might consider "beneath your talent’), rather than schools which are admission reaches. So a strategy based on these assumptions, rather than actual pre-application investigation of costs, financial aid, and scholarships at each college, may result in a financial shut out.</p>
<p>@ucbalumnus</p>
<p>Did you happen to notice that I have been advocating private colleges for merit aid throughout this thread? That is how I got going here, in my very first sentence, and was the thrust of my first post. Don’t act like I did not mention it!</p>
<p>I keep wondering why you throw around exceptional circumstances? Frankly, I see you all over CC (how else do you get over 30,000 posts), often challenging people on minutia. You consistently come across as an arrogant know-it-all and a general pain.</p>
<p>My suggestion is that you make your suggestions to the OP and forget about challenging other posters. The OP can sift advice without your condescending attitude towards others.</p>
<p>Sure there are exceptions to my policy… I know that. There are exceptions to everything. But for the overwhelming majority of prospective students, my approach works and it has no major drawbacks. There is absolutely nothing wrong with applying to one dream school (if the student has one) among a total of five or more colleges. </p>
<p>But, YES, I think that a top 7% Texan etc… should still apply to multiple schools, for the simple reason that they cannot truly be sure of the outcome (as you admit above)… least of which is what they want to major in; which changes frequently with 17 and 18 year olds. They might change their mind in April or May when it is too late. Apply to five schools unless they absolutely must stay in their home town. It will broaden their mind if nothing else, and will test their commitment.</p>
<p>An academic “shut out” is at least as bad as a “financial shut out.” Applying to multiple schools is a hedge against both.</p>
<p>A poor student in Pennsylvania only has to find one affordable state university. Betcha there is one. If not, then a private school is the best choice and is normally going to work well. See my consistent advocacy for them throughout this thread (did you read it this time?)</p>
<p>Might look at some good liberal arts schools like Holy Cross-top 25 school with nice campus.</p>
<p>Thanks everyone! The information was very useful. No more bickering though!!</p>
<p>demorrin,</p>
<p>I apologize for my own role in “bickering” and am happy to see that you hung there to sift through the advice given from different viewpoints.</p>
<p>Seriously, check out Rice if you want to stay in the south. Check out Rochester if you are open to the north. OSU actually could be a safety for you because they do offer significant merit aid with ACT scores like yours. See this:
<a href=“Merit-based scholarships - The Ohio State University”>http://undergrad.osu.edu/money-matters/scholarships.html</a>
Click the arrow to the right of “National Buckeye Scholarship for non-Ohio residents.”</p>
<p>Just remember, it is brutally cold up here for much of December, plus almost all of January and February. This year it has extended into March. (Yep, I am in this region.)</p>
<p>@NROTCgrad thank you! I am very open to attending school up there as I am very interested in UMich (although jt is very expensive) so osu is definitely a possibility. The cold weather, I can deal with I think.</p>
<p>I think Michigan is absolutely a great school – better than most private universities – but recommend that you make a serious comparison to Georgia Tech. I once believed that Michigan was better than GT, but these days for engineering, science, and technology it is hard to beat Georgia Tech. Michigan is probably better in almost every other academic area, however. Look into the details.</p>
<p>@NROTCgrad I have been seriously looking into GT. It’s closer to home, a bit cheaper, and very good for computer science. Plus, I love their campus and am visiting it this Summer.</p>