<p>My junior son would have placed 5th in three events at the 2012 Nescac champs and 8th in three others. However no junior national time yet. He is currently interested in Williams, Amherst, Tufts and Middlebury, in that order. His grades and SAT's seem within range. If I calculate his AI for the Ivies, I get around 215. For those in the know for swimming, is he fast enough? His events range from 200 fly, both IM's and mid to distance free.</p>
<p>While your S certainly shows promise, a handful top top swimmers from Williams and Amherst (and maybe other schools) train through the NESCAC meet and don’t fully taper until the NCAAs. Thus, some of the top times might be a bit slow. Also, given the past few years, what is clear is that the conference is getting blazingly faster and, if you want one of the coaches’ precious few “tips” (or “slots”), you’ll absolutely need Jr. Nat cuts, and probably summer cuts at that (and certainly not NCSA Jr. cuts). Best bet is to simply look up times for current first-year swimmers (in the USA swim database) at your target schools. On the men’s side, some of the current first-year swimmers at Amherst (and Conn. College, and MIT, etc.) would have qualified for last year’s NCAA meet as HS students. This never happened in years past.</p>
<p>If he is junior and is posting those times already and is still motivated to improve, he should have a good chance. His AI sounds in range but the coaches can give you feedback on that with regards to rigor of schedule and so forth. h20 is absolutely correct - the number of jr national level swimmers that are applying is really amazing and shows great promise for an even faster league. 400IM, 200FLY and distance free are events that most swimmers would rather avoid, so that will make him even more attractive - bear in mind that relays gather huge points for the teams, so free sprinters are worth more to the coaches. Also it is important to know what areas the team will need to fill for the class of 2014 - as an example, maybe there is glut of swimmers/recruits in certain events and a lesser ranked swimmer in area of need will be taken for points and relays.</p>
<p>Amherst and Williams currently have the best teams in the league. Middlebury is rebuilding with a new coach and I suspect that your boy would in very good shape and receive the red-carpet treatment. </p>
<p>Have your son fill out the prospective recruit form at the respective schools and send the coaches email updates of any improvements. After this recruiting season winds down in mid- November, have him follow up with an email - the coaches will have more time for him. The coaches can tell you if his test scores are in order or if he should retake to improve his chances.</p>
<p>I will suggest a few other superb schools which have fine coaches and really good teams: WashU in St Louis and the University of Chicago. They signed some really good swimmers this year and are moving up rapidly. The coaches are young and energetic and are trying to build something special. Also, Emory is really good school, has a superb coach/team and should be considered if you decide to look beyond NESCAC I would definitely enlarge the number of schools a bit and take visits if possible prior to the OV next year. </p>
<p>d3swimming has a board that will help you learn more.</p>
<p>Congratulations on being this far ahead of the game with a talented boy. Please PM me should you have any questions - we went down this road recently and learned a lot in the process.</p>
<p>While I don’t mean to discourage, to put D3 swimming into better context at elite schools the MIT mens team, for example, includes a first-year who swam at the US Oly Trials last summer in Omaha (that is, he qualified while in HS). Obviously, the kid has solid academics too boot, as MIT doesn’t bend much–if at all–for athletics. To be sure, an outlier, but this illustrates a clear trend during the past five years or so of D1-level swim talent with Ivy-league academics opting for elite D3 schools. On the admissions-front, the Amherst/Williams-type schools don’t bend much for swimmers as enough talent exists with strong academics. I also second Violao’s suggestion that your son broaden his search at this juncture. His tapered times during his HS junior year (and summer LC season) will be crucial for recruiting as the recruiting cycle for swimmers functionally closes after their junior year in HS. Particularly for the men, coaches will want to see consistent, serious time drops over time.</p>
<p>Thanks all for your responses! I like the idea of a much larger net, including those other excellent D3 schools. It sounds like he would truly need Juniors cuts for Williams and Amherst to even be considered for those.</p>
<p>THere are so many factors when it comes to athletic recruitment, especially when your kid is not in the tip top where everyone is vying for him. You need to keep into account what the team needs and will need in future years as well as what the coach has “in his pocket” and on his mind. My son was a swim recruit and it was truly unnerving. He had coaches (Williams, for one) totally uninterested in him a long with some other schools whereas some ivies were hot to trot. In one case, we found out, totally by coincidence, that the head coach had pretty much set his sights on a swimmer that covered my son’s strokes. You just never know what is playing in the background.</p>
<p>Often, having an asst coach that developes a recruiting relationship makes the going easier. But there are a lot of mixed signals and until the whole things is over, you just don;t know where you kid is going land and get offers.</p>
<p>Not necessarily if you are willing to take the uncertainty. A teammate of D got into Williams without even an NCSA cut. She is solid and doing well. She just didn’t find out till regular admission if the tip worked. Her academic alone would not have made it to Williams.</p>
<p>These may help … [Swimming</a> Recruiting Guidelines](<a href=“http://www.ncsasports.org/recruiting-tools/College-Swimming-Recruiting/swimming-recruiting-guidelines]Swimming”>http://www.ncsasports.org/recruiting-tools/College-Swimming-Recruiting/swimming-recruiting-guidelines)</p>
<p>3togo-the standards for all events aren’t included and they seem slow on the D3 column. I may have S focus on the teams where he’d be one of the better swimmers and is a good academic fit so that he may be able to get coach support.</p>
<p>mama2004–You’re right, the standards 3togo points to aren’t terribly helpful (and woefully out-of-date). Also, the traditional distinctions b/w D1-D3, Ivy-NESCAC are quickly breaking down. Swim times at Ivy schools vary tremendously, and they do as well among NESCAC schools. Williams women and Amherst men (to say nothing of teams from Kenyon, Dennison, Emory, etc.) would beat their counterparts at Brown, Dartmouth, and Cornell. In fact, Williams regularly schedules a couple dual meets every season against mid-level D1 schools and almost always wins.</p>
<p>What’s clearly happening in the “competitive” admissions world for swimmers (and other “non-helmet” sports) is that fast swimmers with solid academic (and test) records are seeking to leverage themselves into the most selective schools possible, whether it’s D1 or D3. And, just like swim times, college admission selectivity varies significantly across the Ivies and NESCAC. For Ivies and NESCAC, it’s obviously not random that the fastest swim schools are also the most selective. As cptofthehouse mentions, there are some factors that your S cannot control. All that he can do is to generate the best possible academic/test record and swim as fast as he can. The chips will fall. Insofar as swimming (and track) is an objective “stopwatch” sport, there is far less subjectivity to worry about. Legal times are legal times; coaches don’t need to see your S swim. For selective schools, it’s difficult to over-estimate the value of formal coach support. It makes things far more predictable.</p>
<p>Jr Nat cuts are the goal, but not entirely necessary as 5am pointed out. Great test scores and grades plus good swimming has certainly worked for many. Remember, Jr Nat times were lowered for this year so they are tougher. There were up to 250 kids per heat at the 2011 Summer Jr Nationals - swimming has gotten faster - so they made the times standards tougher to make the meet go faster. Ditto with the trials’ heats this year look for those standards to change.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t be discouraged at all with Williams and Amherst - I GUARANTEE that those two coaches would love to hear from your son. If he continues to drop time, they will be able to connect the dots. Achieving those cuts this season will make the process much less stressful - so good luck! </p>
<p>I agree with mama2004 - that site’s times are way off. High D1 times from that chart would be where he needs to aim to be a “coveted” recruit at the top 2 NESCAC schools. </p>
<p>the d3swimming board has a list (not everyone) of top recruits - that could give you some good info.</p>
<p>my d has been doing the recruiting-visit thing with d3 schools (including some NESCACs) this fall and we have not run into many j-nat level swimmers. she has a friend who is also being recruited by a few NESCAC schools (I believe he is deciding between Amherst, Bowdoin, and Middlebury for ED) and he does not have j-nat cuts, either. he is a solid sectionals-level swimmer…and most importantly, has great grades and test scores. I think that’s the main thing…I know lots of swimmers who are fast but don’t have the grades. In fact, when the Scholastic All-America list came out, we were all amazed at the names that were NOT on there, kids that are Trials-level swimmers that apparently could not pull a 3.5 for one academic year. Those kids can’t swim at Amherst or Williams no matter how fast they are.</p>
<p>If you can visit some of these schools early(like after March champ season), that would be best…try to figure out where the good fit is both grade-wise and swim-wise. You can definitely make it a scientific study, but there’s an art to it, as well.</p>
<p>LivesinHobbiton-thanks for the advice! Yes, we plan to visit as many as possible in April. I was a little worried about wasting our time with those D3’s that only offer coach support for Jr National level swimmers, but we’ll just start with a longer list and whittle it down from there. S is definitely trying to leverage himself into the highest academic level university he can, with swimming.</p>
<p>mama2004, I think NESCAC is an awesome conference because the schools have all agreed among themselves how to handle recruiting. D is considering some non-NESCAC d3 schools but it is tricky because it isn’t always clear how much of a formal recruitment system there is and whether admissions cares what the coach thinks. At least with NESCAC the rules are clear, even though in the end admissions has the final say. There were other schools D really liked where the coach said he wanted her (and is still emailing and saying he wants her) where admissions absolutely denied that there is any recruiting “system” in place. How weird is that!</p>
<p>The NESCAC coaches will tell you up front if they are giving you a slot, how high your s is ranked among recruits, etc. If your s is given a slot and then does not get in ED, they will be as surprised as he. Just make sure you ask, ask, ask when the time comes–he needs to ask where he is on the list of recruits and how much support exactly he is getting. Good luck!!! (feel free to pm me if you have questions)</p>
<p>Obviously, someone w/ a 4.2 UW GPA, 2400 SATs, plus a pair of 800 SAT IIs, etc. doesn’t need Jr. Nat cuts to get into and swim at Williams/Amherst, etc. And I’ll just guarantee that Kuster and Nichols will “support,” “encourage,” “recruit,” etc. you, especially if you have at least Speedo cuts or can contribute something to the swim team. After all, these coaches need to fill lanes and why wouldn’t they recruit kids that admissions should take on paper anyway. Kuster brings in a ton of swimmers to Williams every year.</p>
<p>What I’ve been talking about is a recruit that needs a formal “tip” or “slot” in order to get into these types of schools. The Amherst coach gets, I believe, a grand total of 2 “tips” (Williams might get more), and these tipped swimmers still have to have shockingly strong academic credentials. My only point has been that, if you want/need one of these exceedingly rare “tips” from Kuster at Williams or Nichols at Amherst, you better have Jr. Nat cuts. There’s simply no way around it given the talent pool from which these coaches choose from. Just look at the various rosters or the D3swimming.com website.</p>
<p>lots of good advice from the posters so I will not repeat it but one additional thought --look at the team’s rosters-- see where the weaknesses are or where the team will be losing a strong swimmer next year–if the school has a great number of flyers–for example–and not just in the senior year, the coach may not want to use a rare “tip” on another flyer when he needs a distance free or a backstroker. </p>
<p>Kuster and Nichols have few tips and Williams in particular is reducing the number of tips overall for athletics somewhat bc they can get great student-athletes that don’t need a tip per se-- although the coach will let admissions know of his interest–and that can’t hurt a bit. But with great grades/boards he will be attractive–he may not get one of the rare tips but he will make the team when he gets in.</p>
<p>oh --one more point about the closing of the D1-D3 gap-- even though NESCAC makes it clear that coaches cannot be on deck or have formal practices until season starts, most of the strong programs have one and two a day practices ("captains’ practices) from the beginning of school–and funnily enough almost all of the team attend almost all of the practices. Frankly, in NESCAC now, if you don’t want that sort of commitment, then it probably isn’t the right conference–but if you do, you will swim with great and smart kids.</p>
<p>There is always the option of attending a D3 school such as Swarthmore or Vassar which will give you the top level academics and he can be ‘the big fish’ in the pool. If a highly selective LAC is your preference, there are several schools outside of the NESCAC that can provide a good swimming experience and the academics you want. It is good that you are broadening your field of interest. Also when visiting campus, attend a swim meet (not as part of an OV) but as a spectator to scope it out.</p>
<p>My S is a junior at one of the very top academic private high schools in the country. He is very interested in swimming at Williams or one of the other top NESCAC schools. His times would put him in the 2012 NESCAC A finals in 50 back (4th), B finals in 100 and 200 back, C finals in 50, 100 and 200 free and 200 IM. He has only been swimming competitively for four years and is continuing to drop times. He dropped about 7 seconds in his 200’s in the last 12 months. He is 16 and is 6’1.5" tall. </p>
<p>Based on his practice tests and his tutor he expects to score a 32 on the ACT. His grades aren’t that strong though, with a 3.0, but takes a very rigorous academic schedule. He trains 25 hours a week with his club, which certainly impacts his grades. My question is whether his grades are too low. </p>
<p>Thanks</p>
<p>Look at who is graduating from the schools he wishes to attend. Kuster and Nichol often use their tips to fill particular slots (for example if you are a woman breast stroker look into Williams, one of the reasons they got nosed out at NESCAC this year is that Amherst had a large number of swimmers in the A finals and Williams maybe had one). </p>
<p>As one of the earlier posters stated if a kid has or will have A cuts without taper, the coaches will not taper that student for NESCAC so the times can be deceiving occasionally. It is amazing how much faster DIII in general and NESCAC in particular has become in just a few years. Many of the recruited swimmers decided between their college and a D1 program offer–obviously not a Cal or Florida but solid D1, esp the Ivies. My opinion is that the swimming will continue to speed up. BTW, even though DIII doesn’t have official practices until November (at least in NESCAC), I can tell you that at Williams (and I would guess at the other colleges) “captain’s practices” are daily-- and often twice daily from the first day of school in September, including dryland/weights (this last I don’t care for–since the rules are that these are unofficial practices, the amount of weight room coaching is pretty minimal–and that isn’t healthy…I wish NESCAC would change this rule…).</p>
<p>As has been pointed out NESCAC admissions committees don’t bend that much for swimmers–but I would reach out to the coaches (and you have to make the first move, if you wait for them you may be waiting forever…). Nichol and Kuster are very straight shooters and will let him know if he is competitive as a recruit or not–they will not lead him on. </p>
<p>But wait until after that NCAAs are over-- right now both coaches–indeed most college coaches-- are pretty involved in getting their kids ready for that championships. </p>
<p>Good luck. I hope he gets to swim in a NESCAC school–they are a great group of kids and terrific coaches.</p>
<p>SwimDad2014–As etondad notes, NESCAC swimming is getting stunningly fast and the velocity of this change is increasing in real time. Also as etondad notes, NESCAC results can be a bit deceiving, certainly for the fastest swimmers. As etondad knows quite well, partly because Kuster did not fully taper his top 2 women, Amherst beat Williams on the womens side for the first time ever. The 2 Kuster did not fully rest will assuredly swim faster at the NCAA meet in a few weeks, however. On the mens side, I think Williams is in some trouble as Kuster will graduate a significant number of his best swimmers. Nichols, however, easily has the most talented and deep cohort of first-year and soph swimmers. First-years and sophs consumed Amherst’s mens “A” relays. Unlike the women, the men tend to get bigger, stronger, and faster during college.</p>
<p>NESCAC times and rosters aside, however, for recruiting purposes it’s probably best to reference USA Jr. Nat cut times. And, at this point, if you want to make any “A” relays at either Williams or Amherst, you’ll need to arrive with a few USA SCY or LCM Jr. Nat cuts. It is simply getting this fast. On the academic front, hard to see Nichols taking anyone w/out at least a 33 on the ACT (at least that’s what others have mentioned on this list before) and, candidly, a 3.00 GPA strikes me as implausible even for a kid taking the most rigorous course load at the most prestigious and academically rigorous high school around. Admissions at both schools is severe and they don’t “accommodate” swimmer recruits very much, if at all.</p>