<p>NUGrad5555, you must recognize that this revealed preference study DOES NOT measure the quality of a school (quality of students, faculty, facitilites...etc) it simply measures actual student choices. These choices are highly influenced by centuries old prestige and geographical factors. Because students choose one school over another does not mean that the school is "better", it is simply more "desirable" for a number of possible reasons.</p>
<p>I thought that that was what you might have meant, sexylikeascorpio. My intention was not to snip at you, just to point out my belief (which you seem to share ). </p>
<p>No problem :-D</p>
<p>College Yahoo...the yield is probably low for reasons other than losing most of the cross-admits to Columbia, Penn, Dartmouth, and Brown since it only loses half of those (read: losing a very high number of cross-admits to HYPSM).</p>
<p>Duke's upper 75% of accepted students is 1570...for enrolled students, it is 1550...so the cream of the crop of the accepted students choose to go to HYPSM. Note that Penn also fills 50% of its student body early while Duke only fills 30% - which might again play a role (not saying its bad either way - Penn just has less cross admits to lose than Duke). Location might play a role.</p>
<p>However, when you stack up the students who enroll at Penn, Duke, Columbia, Dartmouth, and Brown - you won't see any difference in quality and it might actually be surprising to those who aren't familiar the above schools.</p>
<p>But, NU Grad doesn't know much about Duke obviously, just filling him in (or her).</p>
<p>That is why for the last 2 years, Duke has HAD MAJOR TROUBLE FILLING IT's Class. It took almost over 175 students off its list last year. And this year, I wouldn't be surprised if it exceeded that. Look at the boards. A ton of kids got into Duke off the wait list. It's yield is around lower 40s. Meanwhile, it accepts around 22-25 percent a year. Now, let's take a look at Penn. It has a larger class to fill. it's yield is around 60-65 percent. It takes usually less than 25 students off the wait list year. Penn is clearly a more desirable school. I do not care if Duke pays students for their SAT scores. That is really nice. At the end of the day, Penn is an ivy in the north-east whereas Duke is known more for its sports and scandals than anything else, as its yield shows. Sorry,that is the harsh reality.</p>
<p>and for overall reputation, I not only think Penn is superior for undergrad but for grad as well.</p>
<p>Wharton (no explanation needed)
Pen law >>> Duke law
Penn med = duke med</p>
<p>recruitment, Penn beats Duke any day of the week.</p>
<p>I am sorry, Duke can't possibly have access to the "real data," as no one does. It would have to systematically verify each student's list of acceptances and rejections, even for those who do not choose Duke. it is relying on its own inferences, and nothing less. If Duke's data was so accurate, than why are not one but two studies showing such different results than Duke. You can't prove to me that Duke beats any of those schools in terms of cross-admits. I know from my area, in the north-east, Penn garners a lot more respect than Duke. No one gets into Penn from my area (except for ED). And as far as Duke, a ton of kids get in (usually those with very high SATs). That does not make Duke so selective.</p>
<p>In my personal experience duke and Penn are absolute equals. NU, you and I are both in our mid/late-twenties. When we applied to school Penn was relatively easy to get into and WashU wasn;t even on the radar. </p>
<p>Now Penn has risen and Duke has fallen slightly due to the Lacrosse scandal. I think its fickle to argue that schools at such similar levels be "better" or "worse." At the end of the day these are both incredibly high quality schools on par with each other and to choose one over the other because one school is slightly more in vogue in my mind represents destructive short term thinking.</p>
<p>NUGrad, the RP and the NY Times are the SAME THING. Based on high school student surveys (probably from the Northeast prep schools) from several years ago. It is not two studies. It is one, flawed study. However, I guess the Duke admissions office must be lying, just like the Durham DA.</p>
<p>For what its worth, I got into Penn but obviously did not attend. But again, hereasay and unverifiable opinions are worth nothing – facts, on the other hand, are worth a lot.</p>
<p>Now, I don’t expect for you to change your opinion based on anything I write below. I’ve encountered posters like you that are hard-headed - and you would never admit that you really just don’t know the facts, and continue to regurgitate your uninformed, yet still forceful, opinions.</p>
<p>Average SAT Scores:
Duke: 1380 – 1550
Penn: 1330 – 1510</p>
<p>40-50 points isn’t that much of a difference, but hey, Duke is higher than Penn. So the 50% of students that do choose Duke over Penn are pretty good, maybe even...equal, to the ones who go to Penn (but according to you, this is impossible). </p>
<p>Wall Street Journal Feeder Rankings (feeder rates into mainly Ivy 15 top biz, med, law schools)
Duke: Ranked 6th, with around 9% going to the top 15 schools
Penn: Ranked 16th, with around 5-6% </p>
<p>This would be less significant if it wasn’t for the fact that Penn is in the same area as most of the Ivies used in the survey, and Duke is 500 miles away…or that Penn’s amazing business school is used in the survey. So, Duke students are pretty good at that…again, atleast as good or better than Penn students at getting into top Ivy league professional schools. </p>
<p>THES – Times Higher Education Supplement
Duke – Ranked 13th
Penn – Ranked outside the top 20 (don’t have premium)</p>
<p>Ok, so in this international ranking which takes into account faculty/student ratio, global corporate surveys, and peer review, Duke beats Penn. Pretty good. It focuses on research too much since thats a grad measure, but whatever.</p>
<p>National Merit Scholars
Duke – 120
Penn – 100</p>
<p>Keep in mind that even though 20 more isn’t a big deal, Penn’s student body is slightly bigger than Dukes. More National Merit Scholars are going to Duke than Penn…again, no significant difference, but again shows that Duke is EQUAL to Penn.</p>
<p>So, based on these things: SATs, number of National Merit Scholars, WSJ feeder rankings, and THES – Duke is ahead of Penn. However, I know that they are equals and won't pretend otherwise. All data is for the Class of 2010 (or 2009 maybe for THES).</p>
<p>Does this change your opinion at all? Probably not. You'll continue to refer to people "that you know" or talk about "the corporate world" or base your argument on your "personal experience".</p>
<p>Look, I'm hardly a Dukie (my Rice MArch father hisses at the thought), but to get into such fine distinctions over quality seems silly to me. I would hardly call a 40% yield and taking 125 kids off the waiting list major issues filling the class. And while I DO think that Duke is the happy beneficiary of an excellent and high profile sports program, and maybe that does cause it to have a bit of an inflated selectivity, you could claim the same thing about Penn (and Cornell), whose selectivity has absolutely skyrocketed in the past few years due almost entirely to admissions frenzy, especially in regards to getting into the Ivy League. Again--these schools were always excellent schools, and have become even more so in the past few years. But if we are simply going to accept the schools that have always been powerhouses as the only current powerhouses, then the discussion really does narrow down to HYP--and it's ridiculous to narrow the discussion to that point. </p>
<p>Again, yield rate DOES NOT EQUAL QUALITY. The Ivies are the winners in prestige battles the large majority of the time, but there are at least 20 schools on each list (Nat Us and LACs) that offer an equal or near to equal education--and there is no cross-admit data that will make me change my mind about this assertion.</p>
<p>P.S: Not to mention that the scandal, while not reflecting well on the lacrosse team (I'm not a fan of strip clubs and those who darken their door/bring strippers to their parties), turned out to be a bogus and egregiously prosecuted charge. The same can't be said for Northwestern's hazing scandals, IIRC.</p>
<p>Cross-admit data is useful to an extent, but in the end it is only the reflection of which school high school seniors (~18 yrs. old) ended up picking, and I'm certain prestige has a considerable impact on many decisions. That does not reflect the school's quality but instead, for the most part, reputation.</p>
<p>Columbia has had scandals as well. The first is the loan scandal (they had a loan-officer from a loan agency in their financial aid money and they were recieving money from them and also giving students more loans than they should have. this was on the news, and columbia now has to pay students money back! this is FACTUAL)</p>
<p>Also, I believe that a Columbia teacher was caught cheating and giving teachers an answer to a test.</p>
<p>True. I'm sure you could dig up plenty of scandals about various colleges--it's not a terribly good way to judge a college in that respect.</p>
<p>I agree@advantagious.</p>
<p>Columbia's scandals (especially the fight in late 2006 at a conference) was one of the reasons why I love Columbia. People there are so political. The teacher cheating one if a little shocking. However, the final aid one SHOCKED THE HELL OUTTA ME, and made happy that I didn't get accepted. I believe that that is OUTRAGEOUS. People having to pay back loans because YOU want more money. Look at Columbia's endowment. They CAN"T be serious.</p>
<p>I will never look at Columbia the same way again.</p>
<p>first of all....collegeboard published the same SATs for Duke last year, 1380-1550. However, what the rankings had was a different story. They had Duke at 1360-1540 (yes, for last year's sats). That leads me to believe that again, Duke will be at the same level, since I think that 1380-1550 range is fallible.</p>
<p>Therefore, the real difference is 30 points, which is nothing since Duke has 1/2 the amount of students. Be honest with yourself, given the choice to go to UPenn or Duke (if you are from the NE), why on earth would not attend Penn. I just don't seem to understand why Duke has any advantages over penn. Perhaps if it was located in a nice city or particularly strong programs whereas Penn didn't. But that is not the case.....</p>
<p>and by your logic, Columbia College (1320-1520) is blown away by Duke as well. And let's see, Wash U blows away Stanford, Penn, Cornell, Northwestern, etc.</p>
<p>
[quote]
No one gets into Penn from my area (except for ED). And as far as Duke, a ton of kids get in (usually those with very high SATs).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Your anecdotal evidence doesn't justify the zeal with which you are defending your position. Admissions has a lot to do with your location and, some (including yours truly) will argue, school as well. Let me give you an example: here at my school its harder to get into Penn than to Harvard. Penn commands a lower acceptance rate, and people who get into Harvard get waitlisted at Penn (the college nonetheless). Does that mean Penn beats out Harvard? Generating a conclusion from that sample would not be wise.</p>
<p>On the other hand, at a private school in the same geographic region, the number of kids admitted to Penn jump to the teens. It isn't considered to be a wildly amazing achievement (at least not like you describe it). So does that mean Penn is worse than X school? </p>
<p>Your anecdotal evidence really doesn't hold much weight due to the limited sample size. And this itself was one of the errors of that NYT study you brought up. First of all, it was conducted about a decade ago. Secondly, the study contains significant errors as it (A) deals with a statistically insignificant sample size and (B) contains geographical bias (read the paper). More importantly, a survey approach is inherently flawed because it doesn't actually measure information from the target group (aka kids who actually have the choice). Considering the plethora of information available which shows that those two schools are in the same peer group, I wouldn't be arguring my case based on (inherently flawed) anecdotal and models. </p>
<p>As for departments where Duke edges out Penn, BME, public policy, sciences (chem/bio)...solely due to the research triangle are a few. Observe how I said, edges out instead of beat out. These schools are too close in quality to be beating anyone in anything (unless of course one school contains a program the other doesn't).</p>
<p>And here is the statement from the admissions office. The fact that you are suggesting that they are lying shows some vague delusion. Do you really believe that other schools would sit idly while another school essentially uses false info to market themselves? Especially at this level? I would cut back on the CSI if I were you. </p>
<p>
[quote]
According to matriculation data, Duke is successful in wooing to campus only about 15 percent of those admitted students who are also accepted to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, or Stanford. Against the next group--Brown, Columbia, Dartmouth, and Penn--Duke does better, enrolling about 50 percent. In recruiting battles against the third five--Georgetown, Chicago, Washington University, Northwestern, and Cornell--Duke is successful about 80 percent of the time.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>(Disclaimer: I will be attending Duke. I got into Brown and Cornell. I did not get into Penn. I did not complete my application to Dartmouth on time (didn't send in the transcript when they wanted...I had gotten a likely letter from Duke which was already higher up on the list for me and got into Cornell by late Feb.) I also got into Gtown and Northwestern on that list (including with the new merit scholarship). Thats all the conflicts of interests I can think of right now ;))</p>
<p>If the "New York Times" study, as someone said, actually IS the revealed preference study, then-</p>
<p>The researchers are Harvard economists who "get" sample size.
The sample was not just a regional one.
The choices recorded were those of students who actually were accepted to both colleges.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Columbia College (1320-1520) is blown away by Duke as well. And let's see, Wash U blows away Stanford, Penn, Cornell, Northwestern, etc.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I should note that thoughtprocess didn't say anything about anything being "blown out". S/he stated that two schools were of the same caliber. S/he actually stated that 30-40 points wasn't that big of a difference. You are the one exaggerating the minimal differences between perfectly top notch institutions.</p>