<p>we're gonna try the ACT next month. Last yr, a good friend's D, took both w/o prep and did much better on the ACT.</p>
<p>All;</p>
<p>for perspective, according to CB's data, 230,000 students took Writing tests (it's unclear if that means individual kids or multiple tests)....with the new SAT, approx 1.4 million tests will have to be graded, or 6x as many.</p>
<p>fwiw - for anyone considering Math 1 or Math 2, the curve difference is extraordinary. Three % of kids score a 750+ on Math 1, whereas 25% score a 750+ on Math 2. Conversely, 19% score below 500 on Math 1, whereas only 3% score below 500 on Math 2. Math 1 mean = 586, and Math 2 mean = 689! Ignoring the foreign language tests for native speakers, Math 2 has the highest mean of any SATII. (Granted, the test pool is apples and oranges....the UCs required a math SAT II, so many kids with only two years math background would take Math 1.) But, for anyone in Pre-Calc, Math 2 appears to be the way to go.</p>
<p>
[quote]
a few colleges, such as Pomona, will accept the ACT solely, or SATI + SATII's
[/quote]
It's actually about a gazillion colleges now :-) including some Ivies that accepted the ACT before, but now because of the added writing test on the ACT, will accept the ACT in place of both SAT Is an IIs.</p>
<p>Vornonwe: I was going to post the article about analogies from the NYT also. I agree with everything it says: analogies are about thinking clearly. The egregious misuses of them will only continue to get worse.</p>
<p>And I also know that an SAT 2 writing sample can be mis-scored. D got a 6 (out of 12) when she took it. 6 means, according to the rubric, major errors in thought, organization, and grammar. We requested a copy, because this was a girl with 4.0 average, 5th in class, 800 on the writing portion of the PSAT, 770 verbal on the SAT, 800 on the multiple choice part of the SAT 2 w riting test. Etc., etc. A's on pretty much everything she wrote in college. The girl knows how to write. When we finally got the copy of her essay, it was a standard, five paragraph, three example essay. Grammatically perfect. Organized and complete.</p>
<p>Someone goofed up, but they would not admit it.</p>
<p>Subjective is subjective, and always will be.</p>
<p>Bluebayou, thanks for repeating that the Math-IIC is the way to go. The Math-IC is probably the hardest SAT-II test. In addition, students who have mastered the use of a TI-89 have made the test trivial. </p>
<p>So, here we go, lightning has struck ... we agree on something. In fact, we may agree on the issue that the ACT provides an additional option. I do, however, stand by my point that is NOT a superior alternative, and probably not an equal one. The issue of score choice has no importance nor relevance. Simply stated, the colleges do NOT seem to care about how many scores you send in ... only the highest individual scores matter. Is it possible for someone to send the highest individual scores? I rest my case, and I did not even brush on the subject of consistency and integrity of the two tests. :) </p>
<p>On the issue of the essay ... should we not remember that it is a standardized test that serves to measure millions of students? While I think that the blame for this change rests entirely on the shoulders of morons like Atkinson and his misguided bunch of acolytes, we should not fret too much about the essay grading and its impact on the college. I do not believe that many schools will look past the SAT grade, and start analyzing the essay that TCB will make available to them. It is obvious that a 25 minutes exercise of writing a formulaic, highly predictable essay has much to do with high school or college writing. The best use of the essay will probably be a tool to help the schools decide the size of their remedial classes. If the SAT-II writing was used as a tool the measure students applying to the best schools, the current test will be most helpful for the colleges that recruit from the vast ocean of average students. </p>
<p>As I said, time after time, the SAT is far from perfect, but it is the best we have. The SAT is a standardized test that provides a reasonable stratification of the CURRENT level of students applying to college. The problems really start when students, parents, and schools try to use the SAT -without making the necessary adjustments- for different and self-serving purposes, ranging from measuring intelligence, precocity, or the ability to do well in college.</p>
<p>I like the SAT essay idea in place of the application essay. By the time the college essay makes it past mom, dad, a host of friends, aunts, uncles, the AP English teacher and the GC, everything short of pumping it with steroids, how much of it really is the student's original work?</p>
<p>"Has anyone had a child take the ACT? My son's school (catholic highschool in CT) likes the ACT and is slowly switching to it. This year, they are having both the SAT and ACT at the school. The ACT seems more thorough (and longer) but it's nice that it can be the ONLY test you send to a school. It seems all the ones I've looked at Ivy-down, say ACT or SAT plus 2-3 subject tests."</p>
<p>Among those that usually require SAT II's (which itself is a small minority of all colleges), some but not all will take the ACT in lieu of the SAT and SAT II's. For example, of the ivies, only Yale, Penn and Brown will take the ACT without SAT II's, and the other ivies still require II's regardless of whether you submit the SAT or ACT. So you should check with each school you are applying to to determine actual rules.The ACT is designed to be more oriented towards testing on what you actually have learned in high school, although the SAT is now professing to be headed in that direction with its latest changes. Many who take both the ACT and SAT comment that the questions on the ACT are less tricky and somewhat easier than those on the SAT, but they also often comment that the ACT can be harder because it allows less time to answer an equal number of questions. Here in Illinois everyone takes the ACT. The SAT dominates in the east and far west but not in many places in between.</p>
<p>I don't. That means pathetic writers like me will have NO chance to go to a good school. Also, think of the problems when you find the essay question and realize you have NO, I repeat, ABSOLUTELY no idea what this is about? That would realy be awful for colleges to see a blank essay. :)</p>
<p>i remember back in the day when I had to write SAT II English essays. Once, I managed to write 2 full pages about absolutely nothing. Consequestly, I got a 500 on it. :(</p>
<p>This SAT I is a disaster now. Also, it works against the little asian math geniuses who get 800's on the math w/o even trying. :)</p>
<p>"By the time the college essay makes it past mom, dad, a host of friends, aunts, uncles, the AP English teacher and the GC, everything short of pumping it with steroids, how much of it really is the student's original work?"</p>
<p>There is some truth to that statement. It is, however, worth pointing out that the list of "experts" cited in the statement won't have much of a beneficial contribution. The overwhelming majority of moms, dads, host of friends, and uncles do not have much of a clue about writing successful application's essays -unless they have haunted this site. The second group that comprises the good AP English teachers and GC's is probably the absolute worst source for GOOD advice. </p>
<p>Isn't it amazingly funny -as in a tragic comedy- that, when it comes to obtaining valuable advice, the farthest from the HS building a student travels, the better off he will be! </p>
<p>PS The requirements for the SAT essay are extremely different from the college applications'. The prompt, style, and format are like night and day.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Regarding breaks: ...Er, most ladies I know can manage to not use the lavatory for more than 4 hours. =/
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But it can take more than 5 minutes. Try having a period. That crap is not only painful, but it is incredibly messy for some women and it will take more than 5 minutes for some women in the bathroom (not always). Multiply that by the number of women trying to use the bathroom in 5 minutes and you can see how it would take considerably longer than men considering that men do not have this problem, pee standing up, and do not have to pull down their pants to do it.</p>
<p>I agree with you 99+% of the time, and I always appreciate your POV which is well reasoned. :)</p>
<p>I did not mean to infer that the ACT was a superior option, just another option, particularly for those kids who are applying to colleges that do not require SATII's, and thus, do not require the Writing/essay. Moreover, the ACT is just as standardized as the SAT, albeit they have more limited resources. OTOH, the ACT is almost as prevalent as the SAT, 1.2MM vs. 14.MM kids, so numerically they are equivalent. Finally, my primary complaint with the new SAT is its length which turns it into a marathon. Since the essay is prompt is first, whichever section is last can be problematic to tiring brains. Many kids posted yesterday that one of the reading passages was particularly tricky. Fortunately, my S had that passage early; but others could have it as #7, when physical fatigue starts to set in. </p>
<p>As a former marathoner, I know that some kids have slow-twitch fibers and some have fast-twitch fibers, which really decides which events they can run and do well. I'm just concerned that this test is overdone.</p>
<p>Gaston Caperton, College Board president, spoke at a high school program aimed at parents and other adults last week. Each table was asked to form a question for him after his talk. Out table asked point blank about the rising costs of tests, especially the AP exams ($80+), and what those costs go to. He very "diplomatically" asserted that CB is a nonprofit and that the money goes to improving the tests each year. The other half of our question was to inform him that CB's registration form still asked for the names of the mother and father unlike other forms that ask for parent 1 and parent 2. Since family constellations vary, he was asked about when that form would change. He then invited the parent to submit all discrepancies to him directly.</p>
<p>I would recommend that folks either write Caperton directly at
The College Board Headquarters
45 Columbus Avenue
New York, NY 10023</p>
<p>I only had my college essay checked for very basic grammatical mistakes, not content, so it was certainly my own work. However, I liked putting it down and being able to come back a few days later with new ideas. I was actually really proud of my college essay, and I know I would not have been able to produce something of it's quality in 20 or 25 minutes. I'm just thankful I missed the New SAT. </p>
<p>Btw, I also agree, analogies are important.</p>
[quote]
And I also know that an SAT 2 writing sample can be mis-scored. D got a 6 (out of 12) when she took it. 6 means, according to the rubric, major errors in thought, organization, and grammar. We requested a copy, because this was a girl with 4.0 average, 5th in class, 800 on the writing portion of the PSAT, 770 verbal on the SAT, 800 on the multiple choice part of the SAT 2 w riting test. Etc., etc. A's on pretty much everything she wrote in college. The girl knows how to write. When we finally got the copy of her essay, it was a standard, five paragraph, three example essay. Grammatically perfect. Organized and complete.
[/quote]
This does not surprise me in the least. Once I was reading with my daughter a series of sample scored tests for a state test, also graded one to six. The one they graded a six was horrible. I know - in my other life, writing is one of my areas of expertise (though you'd never guess in a million years from my posts!). The one they graded a four was not only flawless, but creative and interesting to boot, with wonderful transitions and truly intelligent examples. That's just one anecdote out of many, but let the example suffice.</p>
<p>Sigh............</p>
<p>EDIT - I mean that each reader gives a six, so the final total would be 12. In my example, then, a single score of 6 is the best, the highest score possible.</p>
<p>I've not hit on one yet that requires more than ACT, but my son mainly is looking on the east coast (N.Carolina up) They suggest the writing ACT which his school is doing, but as I've said before, what is lacking to them in the SAT that requires 2 or 3 other tests?? Just in an anecdotal sense, I've heard some are harder than others, but all challenging, and if you need 3, I'm sure one will make you groan. I wish things could be easier but I don't see that coming any time soon.</p>
<p>Bluebayou, it is hard to convey the correct expressions in a post. I should have added a little smiley to my earlier. I also agree with 99% of your posts. It is debating the remaining 1% that is both educative and fun. </p>
<p>Debruns, the College Board has data that show the various difficulty of the SAT-II by displaying the percentiles. It is that information that allows students to make the appropriate choices. For instance, a non-native speaker who decides to attempt the Chinese or Korean test will be quite surprised, not so much by the difficulty -which is more or less at a third grade level- but that number of students who ace the test. A remarkable score of 700 for a non-native will earn a dismal percentile. </p>
<p>As far as the requirements and the number of SAT-II, I think that most schools will remain in limbo for the next few years, as the SAT and ACT redefine their positions. On this, I may have an unusual position: I believe that the College Board will be forced to change their offerings in English, and reintroduce a Writing test for the most selective schools. The current SAT essay will amount to not much more than the verification that students have reached a level just above needed remediation.</p>
<p>At one of my son's Junior year SAT sittings...the Proctor asked a group of kids...many of them who had simply shown up and had their heads on their desks and weren't really trying to take the SAT exam..."if everyone wanted to "get out of their early and just skip the Bathroom break." </p>
<p>It was clear she wanted to get it over with as fast as possible and go home. When a few kids shouted approval, she made this arbitrary No Break Rule. Unreal!!!! I called to inform someone but was told Proctors can do what they like to manage things. Anyone know if that was true? </p>
<p>I will add that this Proctor really did negatively impact this sitting for my son --get real...some kids need to stretch and make it to the facilities...and that I think 500 kids need more than five minutes to get to the bathrooms even if they should post an adult in the restrooms/halls for the ten minutes allowed. </p>
<p>Something should be done to standardize basic physical comfort.</p>
<p>Girls need to "take over" the boys bathrooms in those circumstances...its been done before, and if you need to go, then do it...</p>
<p>I warn my D;s not to drink to much in the morning and to use the facilities again when they get to test site, no matter what...</p>
<p>Its unfair and I think everyone that had to live through the 5 minute break and wasn't able to take care of business, should contact CB...if enough people say something and CB realize there is gender bias, then they will do something about it. THey are not fools. Not good planners, but not fools.</p>
<p>I went to a concert with my D- one of those boy bands...90% of the concert goers were females...so they concert hall people made most of the bathrooms female. It was fun watching the dads running around the place looking for a bathroom and having to wait in line....</p>