<p>
[quote]
The actual average annual earnings of RNs employed full-time in 2004 were $57,784
[/quote]
This is data from the American Nurses Association. The average takes into account ALL nursing salaries, from the rookie to the most experienced, from the generalist to the multi-certification holder. Hospice nurses make less than hospital nurses. And nurses do not generally earn a $20,000 jump in salary in only two years. So Washington must be the place to be for hospice nurses.</p>
<p>For 2003, the average physician income was $203,000.</p>
<p>"So Washington must be the place to be for hospice nurses."</p>
<p>Well, my wife is not only a hospice nurse, but a rural one. She'd make substantially more in Seattle. </p>
<p>"The actual average annual earnings of RNs employed full-time in 2004 were $57,784"</p>
<p>And rising at double-digit rates. (There are even signing bonuses.) So take the $57.8k, and simply add 10% for 2005, 2006, and 2007, and what do you come to? (Don't take out the calculator; it's $76.9k; try it at 8% if you like, though I can tell that around here it is more.) (I'm busy doing our taxes, and let me tell you, this is a new experience; sadly, though, because of illness, wife is currently only able to work per diem.)</p>
<p>When you consider that the average physician income is ONLY $203,000 for 70-80 hour work weeks, and only after the $200k in outlay for Ivy school (lost income at 7% a year compounded forever, $225k in med school expense and interest, compounded, and then years of internship and residency and first years setting up a practice, it is quite easy to see, really, how the community college-trained nurse comes out way ahead for the first 15+ years if the $200k savings is counted (and accrued - remember, it doubled every 10 years, and so at 20 years is $800k), and well ahead for the first 10+ even without it.</p>
<p>The average physician reported a workweek of 53 hours.</p>
<p>Around here, physicians are not considered high income. Too many investment bankers and truly wealthy in the area. Friends of ours were shocked when a realtor made a remark about doctors not being able to afford certain neighborhood. Where I came from in the midwest, doctors ruled in terms of income and prestige. They tended to define the "best" and most expensive neighborhoods. Don't know where RNs fit in all of this, but I can tell you that my friend's girls in Cleveland are outearning my son who went to a top 25 school and is in a high pay area. They went to community college and then a local state school and specialized in medical billing (don't know the particular major). They are earning very nice salaries especially given the midwest pay scales, one working in a medical center, the other for a health insurance company. </p>
<p>I believe in my bones and heart that a good solid enjoyable liberal arts education is a wonderful thing, but the brain says that maybe a one or two year stint thereafter at a certificate program for a specific skill is not a bad way to go to make some money. You hope that the 4 year degree and the brain areas that got exercised during that time will use the specific skill job as a springboard. Beats folding shirts at the mall for min wage which is often the alternative.</p>
<p>Mini--my H went to med school in the 80s. Low interest? We had loans some at 12% or higher. But your point is correct: Medical school gave him 0 grants--loans are the norm.</p>
<p>Edad--med students do not get paid to work in ERs. And would you want them to?</p>
<p>Residents can make some money there, but by the time they finish their zillion hours working, there's not much time for moonlighting.</p>
<p>203K in 2003? Boy, was H in the wrong part of the business! He may be making more per hour as a teacher than he did as a doctor, and he puts in a lot of teaching hours.</p>
<p>True, he could have gone into surgery and made the bigger bucks. Pediatricians for really poor kids are not compensated quite the same. Overall, teaching is saner. No pager going on all night, and no one dies.</p>
<p>Edit: Edad, he worked more like 60/70 hours a week, more if he was the covering doc at the hospital that week.</p>
<p>Ok....the first thing I dont understand is how families (say hubby and wife with 2 kids) and make more than $85,000/year complain they cant afford colleges??</p>
<p>My parents income was $25,000/year (thats right, $25K) and I was able to go to university. We had nothing, we were poor as hell.</p>
<p>The amount I got from federal student loans is $3100 and thats it, one time thing. I was assessed for MUCH higher but never got it, and appealed that decision over 5 separate times, and they didnt budge!</p>
<p>I (and my parents) went to every bank and tried to get loans......they all said nope.........not enough income and not enough assets.</p>
<p>My parents decided to 2nd mortgage the house, but it still wasnt enough, so I had to use credit cards to pay for tuition and books (and plus I had 2 jobs while being a full time student).</p>
<p>It was rough, but I made it.........so I have no idea how families with that much income cant pay for school for their kids.........are they super-spenders and dont save a thing?</p>
<p>How did people live without closets? They wore one set of clothes and their other set was hanging on the clothesline drying.</p>
<p>THe cost-benefit analyses don't seem to take into account what a person wants to spend their money on. If I had $200,000 I might rather spend it on tuition than - a huge boat or property somewhere. I suppose you could do cost-benefits on those purchases, but sometimes people just buy what they want.</p>
<p>Well, if you do the cost-benefit analysis and say if you don't spend money on college but take the $200,000 and roll it up and use it for toilet paper, you may come to a different conclusion than if you actually invest the money.</p>
<p>Dami727, after taxes $85,000 really isn't $85,000 and some people just don't want to borrow and especially with credit cards.</p>
<p>That 7% after tax return in the stock market is a historical average. Since about 2/1 2-3 % of that return (after tax, before tax closer to 4 1/2)was dividends and dividends are much lower now that may not happen. Also, we are not going to get the population growth that we had in the past which could lower future returns. Maybe, we are going to be more productive so we can still get those returns, but it is not something that can be counted on.</p>
<p>They wore one set of clothes and their other set was hanging on the clothesline drying.</p>
<p>Well we still got the clothesline- but Im afraid I have more than one set of clothes- ( In fact I was just noticing that Jcrew has reduced their sale stuff another 30%) ;)</p>
<p>Dam, for starters, your parents probably paid little or no income tax. If any taxes were paid, it is likely the rate was 15% or less. The $85,000 family rate would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 28%. You really can't look at $85,000 and think that even half of that actually makes it into anyone's pocket. Read the past posts & see some figures for other unavoidable expenses AFTER federal taxes are extorted, I mean taken out. </p>
<p>Property tax, state or local income tax, health insurance, homeowner's insurance, life insurance, out of pocket medical bills, utilities, transportation, food, home repairs, and the list goes on and on and on. DO you see how tough funding college can be, even for families earning more than yours?</p>
<p>"I was able to go to university." Sounded British so I checked. Mr Dam is Canadian and a graduate of Queens U. Possibly the Canadian system is different.</p>
<p>It is different in one aspect.......for most to get a federal loan the family income should be below $35,000/year. And if family income is above $50,000/year the kids have no chance of federal student loans (even if family debt is high). The other way it is different is that full-ride scholarships are very rare.......even student need-based or merit awards are very minimal at best.</p>
<p>In other ways it is not different at all.......except there are no major Ivies that are as large as Harvard, Yale.....etc.</p>
<p>
Send your checks to Curmudgeon's Junk Bonds, Inc.com 4200 Enron Way, Hornswoggle, Texas .</p>
<p>Families at the $85K range are not going to be able to pay those current college costs that are past the $50K level out of income alone, if they are also paying a full slate of living expenses at the same time. A family of $85K is expected to have saved some money for college, and a student of such a family is expected to have worked and saved some money, and to continue to work for money towards college costs. Both student and family are also expected to take out some loans towards those costs. </p>
<p>There is a big range, however, in the financial solvency of families earning the same dollar amount. A family who bought a home years ago, has stabilized mortgage payments; possibly a paid for house (we would have, had we stayed in the midwest with our 15 year mortg). If the income was one that was steadily rising over the years, the debt level is low and the family did not buy things that continue to consume money (a second home, gas guzzling car, boat, ) they are going to be in much better shape than someone who more recently bought a home, is just suddenly in this income range, has prior debts, had some catastrophes that cost money, and has some high maintenance expenses that are not going to be easy to shake. Also how the kids have been raised is an issue. If you are in that income range, and see that a private college at top prices might be something you want for the kid, rather than giving spending money for hanging around the mall or stuff like that, you might help the kid start earning and saving money for that day. My 13 year old has a neighborhood errand type job and makes $40 a week, more in the summers and some weekends. He has a bank account of over $3K and bought his own lap top and X box, and pays for his own entertainment expenses. Though at the $85K level it is possible to get financial aid, it is not likely to be that generous. Whatever you can sock away will make a big difference in choices and quality of life during college years.</p>
<p>Any scenario that asuumes steady employment over decades is at least partially flawed. I've known degreed professionals who've been laid off or whose company tanked. Those folks blow through thier severence and 401k (paying the penalty) until they find something else. The something else they find often times doesn't pay 2/3 of what they were previously earning. Not the case with high demand professions, particularly in medicine, but just about everyone else is vulnerable. Thirty years in the same gig is a thing of the past.</p>
<p>Send your checks to Curmudgeon's Junk Bonds, Inc.com 4200 Enron Way, Hornswoggle, Texas .</p>
<p>lol</p>
<p>Even high demand professionals in medicine have "disruptions" in their careers. A friend's husband (OB/GYN) was discharged from the practice he had been working at for a long time & has become solo. There was very little notice & it took some considerable adjustment by him & his family.</p>
<p>I've heard many times that folks nowadays are likely to have at least 3+ career changes in their lives--not job changes, total career changes. That's one reason we need to help our kids have a lot of resources that they can use in whatever they end up doing to earn a living.</p>
<p>A good friend started out as a litigation attorney, became a legislative researcher and is now an assistant prof running a paralegal program at the community college. Another friend got his law degree then his med degree & is now writing books about healthy diets and working with many of our state's poorest as a physician. My hubby's job title & responsibilities are constantly evolving--his degree is in accounting, but he's had so many different jobs requiring different skill sets that he & his boss have lost count (the closest he comes to accounting is figuring out how to spend the money his department is allocated). Another friend started out selling computers, then worked as an educator/trainer in healthcare for a while and is now writing computer training for various companies as an independent contractor.</p>
<p>Folks who don't have multiple skill sets & the resources & ability to adjust to the changing work environment are lost when their job disappears.</p>
<p>Referring back to the article, I really don't get it. It's not about affording 200K. It's about affording 5K (stay at home, go to CC or local public university) to 20 K (if the out of town public is very expensive). Taking into consideration that the kid can help out, and the parents can save a LITTLE (if they're making 100k+), that is the issue. The article gloms onto the 45K a year expense and takes off with it.</p>
<p>"That 7% after tax return in the stock market is a historical average. Since about 2/1 2-3 % of that return (after tax, before tax closer to 4 1/2)was dividends and dividends are much lower now that may not happen."</p>
<p>You probably know more about this than I do. But my data show a pre-tax 11% average stock market return (including dividends) for 1926-1990 (that includes the great depression, and the collapse of 1987); and 18% for 1990-1999, with 2000-2006 somewhere in between. </p>
<p>"Well, if you do the cost-benefit analysis and say if you don't spend money on college but take the $200,000 and roll it up and use it for toilet paper, you may come to a different conclusion than if you actually invest the money."</p>
<p>My analysis indicates my wife the hospice nurse does better for the first 14 years WITHOUT the benefits of the $200k (but the Ivy-Doc has to spend it.) (And if she was working more than 40 hours at those times that the med-schooler/intern/resident HAD to work more than 40 hours, the gap becomes even wider.)</p>