<p>barrons, are you trying to scare away the OP from UW? My apologies, I should have realized that the U isn’t on any “fun” lists…because those rankings ooze credibility and importance. The stadium is not half empy. The students DO care about the Gophers; but it’s hard to be excited for a team that’s 1-6. And oh yeah…we also have a very competitive bball team. Have you ever gone to bars around campus? Have you ever even spent any significant time on campus? If half the students are commuters, than they communte from like a quarter of a mile away. The area around campus is packed with college students. </p>
<p>And even if the Gophers suck…you still can go to Vikes, Twins, Twolves, and Wild games. Can you do that in Madison? Didn’t think so. </p>
<p>You’re not doing a good job of recruiting the OP to Madison by attacking a school he/she sees as a top option. And you’re espcially not helping by being a compete d***. You’re giving a great school (UW) a really bad name.</p>
<p>*I talked to a guy who payed off a $120000 debt in 3 years. And my dad works for Lockheed Martin so we could pay it off. Also I still don’t know where I will be doing graduate school. And who knows about the relationship thing, but with a mechanical engineering degree I could probably get a job at Lockheed from my dad, or with a ChemE, my friend’s dad owns a company that needs tons of ChemE’s. I’m good for paying money back after I’m done. *</p>
<p>You seem determined to take out a lot of (unnecessary) big debt for an engineering degree. Fine.</p>
<p>Will your parents co-sign? If not, you can’t get the money. The rules have changed. Your friend came under the old rules that didn’t need co-signers. The rules changed after the recent string of bank failures. </p>
<p>Before you decide that borrowing large amounts of money is a good option, PLEASE have your parents (and you) look into what’s required to borrow for private student loans. </p>
<p>I talked to a guy who payed off a $120000 debt in 3 years </p>
<p>First of all, the amount he borrowed was less than $120k. It GREW to that size by the time he graduated. In your case, you’re adding grad school, so your debt could REALLY grow while you’re in school.</p>
<p>Secondly, to pay off $120k in 3 years requires a person to pay $40k per year. That is with AFTER TAX income! Do you know how much a single person has to earn in order to NET $40k to put towards a loan for 3 years in a row? </p>
<p>That is sooooo unlikely on a new grad’s salary unless he has no car, no car insurance, buys no gas, buys no clothes, no dates, no friends, and has basically has no life at all for 3 years. Very unlikely for a person in their mid 20s. </p>
<p>Are you a person who doesn’t socialize? Who won’t date? Who won’t go places with friends? </p>
<p>Do you really think it won’t bother you while you’re working to see your peer engineers have so much money at their disposal because they didn’t rack up big debt while in college?</p>
<p>The guideline is that no more than 10-15% of your income should go to pay back student loans. Anything more than that becomes impossible.</p>
<p>You need to find some schools that will be affordable and won’t require big debt.</p>
<p>barrons, this is just so wrong on so many levels. I know a ton of local Twin Cities kids who go to both schools. Their lives are not that much different. Only about 25% of UW Madison kids live on-campus. The rest live in apartments, houses, coops, and frat houses in the neighborhoods surrounding campus. Only about 21% of UMN-Twin Cities kids live on campus. The rest live in apartments, houses, coops, and frat houses in the neighborhoods surrounding campus. True “commuters”? Well, yeah; maybe about 5% of UMN-Twin Cities kids live at home with their parents and commute; but I’d bet a pretty similar percentage of Madison-area kids commute to UW Madison. Generally that’s not a preferred option for 18- to 21-year olds until they’re forced into it by economic necessity, but the numbers who are is going to be pretty similar in either case. And the Minnesota parents I know tend to see their kids only at Thanksgiving and Christmas, whether said kids are at the U or in Madison. As for off-campus living, students in Madison are largely confined to pretty well-defined “student ghettos.” Some of that at the U, too, but Minneapolis-St. Paul is a much bigger housing market so generally students have more attractive options, though it does mean some go a little farther afield. But as I said before, it’s a choice: vibrant city v. student ghetto, take your pick.</p>
<p>As for the “fun” quotient? Well, yes, UW Madison scores high on that metric, but notice that this ranking is pretty strongly correlated with alcohol consumption. UW Madison, like the entire state of Wisconsin, does have a much bigger drinking problem than the U and the state of Minnesota. I think that’s pretty well documented. Princeton Review ranks UW Madison #15 for “Lots of Beer,” #4 for “Lots of Hard Liquor,” and #12 for “Lots of Parties”; Minnesota doesn’t make any of those lists. Among states, Wisconsin ranks #1 in “per capita liquor consumption,” #1 in “percentage of heavy drinkers,” #1 in “percentage of binge drinkers,” (a no doubt disappointing) #6 in per capita beer consumption (after Nevada, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Montana, and South Dakota, all states where basically there’s nothing else to do). Wisconsin also has 7 of the top 8 cities in # of taverns per capita. So yeah, if you equate “fun” with heavy drinking, Wisconsin’s your place.</p>
<p>As for the “empty” football stadium at Minnesota: in 4 home dates so far this year, the Gophers are averaging an attendance of just a hair under 50,000—not bad for a stadium with a capacity of 50,805, especially for a 1-6 team. It indicates a deep, loyal, and patient fan base. Once they land a real coach—and make no mistake, this is a VERY attractive coaching opening—and have a couple of years to recruit the athletes they’ll need to be be competitive, that place will be rockin’. Minnesotans love their football. Vikings, yes, but there’s a deeper base of loyalty to the Gophers. Heck, at least a third of the deep Minnesotans I know are Green Bay Packers fans, but they all love the Gophers.</p>
<p>Um no actually, his debt was about 120K to start, and he had a wife by that point. They both had good paying jobs, didn’t live with a parent, and decided that paying back their debts was the most important. And the purpose of this thread was to find out which school is a better experience, not a loan thread. I’m perfectly aware of all those things, and will deal with them as they come. My parents said they’ll help with loans and we have the money to send me there debt free, but my parents don’t want to give me $40000 a year to go to school. And no schools are debt free because I live in NJ so all the state schools are still over $25000(average is 28000), other than county college, and I’m not staying home</p>
<p>Thanks to all the people giving college life opinions at the two schools. The more comments, the better(I’m reading them all and putting them in a little “folder” in the back of my brain)</p>
<p>Is that actual attendance or paid attendance? Because I have seen some of most of the UMN games and the actual attendance does not approach 98%. Schools with attendance issues have been known to use the more favorable stats.
Having most of the UW students living within close proximity to the campus adds to the impact of feeling like part of a college atmosphere. As to the “ghetto” well there is a wide range of housing options from old flats to very modern luxury high rises. People choose what fits them best but the upscale units are numerous within easy walking distance of both campus and downtown Madison with its nationally known Farmer’s Market, scores of restaurants, coffee shops, bars, clubs and performing arts facilities. Then you have the famous Student Union and The Terrace with easy access to the largest sailing fleet of any college outside the US Navy. You don’t need a car to get to any of them. If that’s a “ghetto” I think it’s better than having to go across town to get to things. </p>
<p>“rural” You have an odd concept of rural. The Madison metro area is around 600,000 people. It’s not a small college town–it’s a mid-sized city that is also the state capital and home to a growing number of large corporations.</p>
<p>Madison is far from a small rural college town. It’s the capitol of Wisconsin and has a metro area of 500K+. Either way you won’t be in a rural environment. Minneapolis is just way bigger (over 3 million).</p>
<p>And the U is only 4K more per-year for OOS students. Not that expensive.</p>
<p>Ahem . . . Should read “Minneapolis-Saint Paul is just way bigger (over 3 million).” Minneapolis is half the equation. There are two major core cities in this metropolitan region. Minneapolis is slightly bigger, Saint Paul the elder sibling. Each has a distinct history and personality.</p>
<p>Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) Population, 2009 Census Estimate</p>
<h1>16 Minneapolis-Saint Paul: 3,269,814</h1>
<h1>88 Madison: 570,025</h1>
<p>OOS Tuition & Fees, 2010-11
University of Minnesota-Twin Cities: $16,669
University of Wisconsin-Madison: $24,237 </p>
<p>Total OOS COA, 2010-11 (each university’s estimate)
University of Minnesota-Twin Cities: $27,438
University of Wisconsin-Madison: $37,757</p>
<p>^ Exactly. Madison is a cute college town (seriously, even taking the larger metro stats into account, 500k people is not exactly a densley populated enivornment for someone from the northeast. I know you have a middle american perspective as to what constitutes a city, but a in-town population of 235,626 does not a city make. </p>
<p>It is a cute down, don’t get me wrong, but it is very rural. Ten minute drive and you hit farms. Seriously!</p>
<p>LOL, barrons, you write as if students living close to campus is somehow unique to Madison. I’d love to see a survey of the average distance students live from campus at the two schools. I’ll bet the difference is negligible. The vast majority of students at the U live in neighborhoods immediately adjacent to campus, like Dinkytown, Stadium Village, or Cedar/Riverside. The few who live further are mostly in and around downtown Minneapolis and its entertainment-heavy Warehouse District, or out University Avenue toward Saint Paul, in either case a quick 10-minute bus ride away from campus, so that campus continues to be the focal point of both their academic and social life.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Oh, wow! Restaurants? Live entertainment? A Farmer’s Market? A student union? Surely the U can’t match any of that, right? LOL.</p>
<p>
</code></pre>
<p>“Nationally known Farmer’s Market”? I looked it up. The Madison Farmer’s Market proudly states that it’s been going strong since 1977. Pretty impressive. Saint Paul’s Farmer’s Market has been in continuous operation in downtown Saint Paul for 150 years, all local produce, and it’s roughly 3 times the size of Madison’s; I’ve been to both, there’s just no comparison, I’ll take Saint Paul’s any day. </p>
<p>Live entertainment? Yes, Madison’s nice and pretty lively in a college-town sort of way. The Twin Cities are an arts and entertainment hotbed. Here’s some of what Wikipedia says about the local scene:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>It’s the difference between a big city and a college town. But to each his/her own.</p>
<p>Lol both schools sound really good. But for Minneapolis’ musical culture, do death/prog metal bands ever go through there? The electric factory is a hotbed for some of my favorite bands, and a good metal scene would make me very happy. And to me a farmer’s market is a farmer’s market, it doesn’t have to be huge but I’m guessing out there they are. There’s a little one in a town near mine.</p>
<p>According to My Chances Students admitted to both pick UW by 2:1.</p>
<p>University of Wisconsin - Madison vs University of Minnesota - Twin Cities
When students are admitted to two schools, they can only attend one. Which do they prefer? For the full methodology, please see the bottom of the page. If the results are in color, then the difference is statistically significant at a 95% confidence level.</p>
<p>University of Wisconsin - Madison
is chosen by
67%
of cross-admits
95% confidence interval: 54.9% to 78.8%. University of Minnesota - Twin Cities
is chosen by
33%
of cross-admits
95% confidence interval: 21.2% to 45.1%.</p>
<p>@barrons: You have posted in the past on the importance of a rigorous sampling methodology. Care to share how My Chances is preferable to Payscale or any other “study” using voluntary response data?</p>
<p>Because I knew it was pretty accurate. According to UW data, Minn residents admitted to both choose UW by over 2:1. 44% choose UW 21 % Uminn and the rest go somewhere else. For Wisconsin residents residents admitted to both about 90% choose UW.</p>
<p>^ In this case, cross-admit data probably tell us less than meets the eye. </p>
<p>The University of Minnesota gets about 34,000 applications a year. I’m not sure what fraction of the applicants are Minnesota residents but it’s got to be pretty high, probably in the 80% range; so let’s assume somewhere around 27,000 a year. In contrast only about 3,000 Minnesota kids apply to UW Madison each year—even though for Minnesotans UW-Madison is virtually an in-state school, insofar as they’d pay in-state tuition under the reciprocity agreement. So nearly 90% of the Minnesota kids are “voting with their feet” right there, electing to apply to UMN but not to UW-Madison. I suspect the numbers going the other way are pretty similar, with 90+% of Wisconsin residents who apply to UW-Madison declining even to apply to UMN, despite in-state tuition. What happens with the comparatively much smaller numbers of cross-admits from either state is almost inconsequential given this larger picture.</p>
<p>Besides, it’s not as if UW Madison is doing such a great a job in closing the sale with the relatively few Minnesotans who do apply. According to UW’s own data, nearly 60% of the Minnesotans who apply are accepted; but of those who are accepted, only 44% actually enroll. My suspicion, backed by a lot of anecdotal evidence from Minnesota families I know, is that a lot of high-achieving Minnesota kids use both UW Madison and UMN as “safeties” but really would prefer to go elsewhere if they’re admitted to the school of their choice, and if finances permit. So the cross-admits who end up at either school are going to include a lot of kids who either didn’t get into the school of their choice, or ended up having to settle for one of their financial safeties. The fact that among this smallish group a few hundred more chose UW Madison may tell us nothing more than that in this high-achiever category more would prefer to be away from home than to stay in the Twin Cities metro (where most of the Minnesota high-achievers come from)—not as a knock against the area or the school, but because they’re looking to broaden their horizons. Bottom line, I just don’t think we can infer much from the UW cross-admit data.</p>
</p>![http://photos.news.wisc.edu/photos/Union_terrace_day1_96.jpg[/url]](http://photos.news.wisc.edu/photos/Union_terrace_day1_96.jpg%5B/url%5D){kind=link}
![http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://photos.news.wisc.edu/photos/Union_terrace_day1_96.jpg&imgrefurl=http://photos.news.wisc.edu/view.php%3Fid%3D972&h=400&w=600&sz=59&tbnid=bNgB20ces9yYwM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dunion%2Bterrace%2Bphotos&zoom=1&q=union+terrace+photos&usg=__ur3Uz752_IFWbGMJbH6EfyOKrcg=&sa=X&ei=VrDBTIHnGMOBlAfkn8HiCQ&ved=0CB8Q9QEwAQ]Google](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://photos.news.wisc.edu/photos/Union_terrace_day1_96.jpg&imgrefurl=http://photos.news.wisc.edu/view.php%3Fid%3D972&h=400&w=600&sz=59&tbnid=bNgB20ces9yYwM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dunion%2Bterrace%2Bphotos&zoom=1&q=union+terrace+photos&usg=__ur3Uz752_IFWbGMJbH6EfyOKrcg=&sa=X&ei=VrDBTIHnGMOBlAfkn8HiCQ&ved=0CB8Q9QEwAQ%5DGoogle){kind=link}
