NMF's who go to state schools

Parents Forum
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<p>Daderoo, for what its worth, my own son chose a pricey private with a $2000 annual NM award over ASU. -- we all make decisions that are based more on emotions than on logic. ASU would not have been a good fit for him in any case - he wanted a small LAC - but the problem was that things didn't work out so well in the long run at the place with all the smart rich kids either. Plus he complained that a lot of the kids at his college weren't all that smart, nor was the conversation all that cerebral. They did get drunk a lot, however. </p>

<p>National Merit is a meaningless accolade UNLESS it becomes a vehicle for a scholarship. Without the scholarship it is no more nor less meaningful than anything else on the kid's academic record .... it means our kids happened to do very well on a standardized test given in 11th grade. I am sure there are many kids who didn't make the NM cutoff because their PSAT score was a little bit lower but who end up with higher SAT scores in the end, or who have higher GPA's or took more AP's or have more impressive EC's. It's just a test. </p>

<p>NM is a scholarship contest. If you enter the contest for the sake of the honor and eshew the financial benefit it incurs... you've got nothing except bragging rights that mean very little to those of us who know what it all entails. Its not that your kid doesn't have something to be proud of - its just that it happens to be him and 15,000 others every year. Here are where those kids go:
[quote]
The annual report by the National Merit Scholarship Corp. listed 375 public and private institutions that enrolled 8,258 scholars last fall. The top 15 schools are: Harvard, 312; University of Florida, 259; University of Texas-Austin, 242; Yale, 224; Stanford, 217; University of Chicago, 198; Washington University, 197; Princeton, 192; USC, 183; Rice, 173; University of Oklahoma, 170; ASU, 162; Northwestern, 152; Vanderbilt, 144; and NYU, 150.

[/quote]
Source: <a href="http://www.asu.edu/feature/includes/spring05/readmore/nationalmerit.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.asu.edu/feature/includes/spring05/readmore/nationalmerit.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Neither I nor my kid is a NMSF whore, nor do we think it is the be all and end all. I am sorry if it didn't work out so well for your kid, but it seems to me that the odds favor the selection of a college where a given kid is not artificially chosen to be one of the best academic students but rather might be more normal. On the other hand, it has occurred to me that it might in some ways be to my child's advantage to be a big fish in a less talented pond. Hard to tell in advance.</p>

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<p>Daderoo - Texas Tech offers a guaranteed admissions program to its medical school for some high school seniors. Here is a quote from the Program:</p>

<p>"THIS IS NOT AN ACCELERATED, 6,7 YEAR, OR OTHER TYPE OF FAST-TRACK PROGRAM TO MEDICAL SCHOOL. Texas Tech University and Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center School of Medicine offer an exciting and competitive program designed for academically talented and highly motivated students interested in pursuing a M.D. degree. By meeting the special requirements and deadlines of this joint program, a select group of entering freshmen are guaranteed admission to the Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center School of Medicine after completion of a Bachelor's Degree at Texas Tech University. Combined with undergraduate coursework and medical school, the student is looking at 8 years of study."</p>

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<p>


One of the truest statements I've read on CC.</p>

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<p>I went to Ohio University as a NMScholar a million years ago, and due to a strong department (dance), had a great time. I also met some neat people in film and art department.... but, in general, classes I took in the general curriculum were not challenging or engaging, and other students were not very academically involved. I sent my NMScholar dd to Rice U. Since we have financial need, it was not "free ride" vs "$120000, but "free ride" vs. "$60,000". That's still a lot of money out of our small salaries, but I think it was/is definitely worth it for her. Grad school funding will be her responsibility. With DS (two points below last year's NM cutoff in Texas, :eek: hoping for a miracle in September) we would definitely consider a free-ride to UF or ASU if he were to qualify. He wants big school with football, doesn't like seminars where you have to write a lot, likes to be anonymous in class, etc. I wish we could have used DD's NMF free-ride on DS! :)</p>

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<p>daderoo - check your state. Other states are irrelevant. From the University of Illinois Chicago's web site:</p>

<p>The GPPA program allows a limited number of freshmen per year to be admitted to UIC with guaranteed admission to one of several professional degree programs. Students need only maintain pre-set curriculum and performance criteria to maintain their guarantee.</p>

<p>With the security of GPPA, students are able to focus on undergraduate studies and have the freedom to pursue many subject areas and disciplines. In addition, participants have early and frequent contact with professional school faculty and advisors. Most students in GPPA also benefit from the facilities and services of the UIC Honors College.</p>

<p>For more information about admission to GPPA programs, please click the prospective students link to the left.</p>

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<p>The OP asked for actual experiences, so I hope it's okay to post a negative one.</p>

<p>My D, six years ago, went on a merit scholarship to a state school (not our state.) I can only put it that she had a miserable experience. She was in an Honors Program, and lived in an Honors Dorm.</p>

<p>In class, even Honors ones, she was often the only one who spoke. There was little discussion for its own sake. No one talked about ideas or anything much outside of class besides partying. Honors students seemed to her to be interested in getting ahead, not thinking for its own sake. They were smart, but not interested in the intrinsic side of things, but rather grades and professions.</p>

<p>In the Honors dorm, she was left pretty much alone if she didn't go to the big frat parties on Thurs-Sat nights. Tried very hard to find people doing anything else. Even joined a group that promoted nonalcohol-alternatives on campus--she was the only freshman involved. Also joined political groups--only freshman involved.</p>

<p>Typical experiences--looking out her third story window to see frat guy from across the road scaling the wall of her dorm, people ****ing on the bushes below her window, vomit pretty much everywhere. She asked us not to come down parents weekend because the whole campus reeked from the football game the day before, and she was embarrassed.</p>

<p>The few kids she found on her wavelength also transfered, except a couple who were in the BS/MD program. One of them told her that was the only reason he was staying.</p>

<p>I realize this sounds brutal, and I am quite sure i'm going to be flamed or near so, but this is her real experience--I'm not going to sugarcoat it to make people feel better.</p>

<p>I went to a wonderful state university--UMich, where I had amazing academic experiences. But when you move away from the great publics, I think things change, and I think that really careful research is in order.</p>

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<p>"They were smart, but not interested in the intrinsic side of things, but rather grades and professions"<br>
That could apply to many "elite" privates too.</p>

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<p>"we all make decisions that are based more on emotions than on logic"</p>

<p>Looks like Garland and I both have some logic and not just emotions in our anaylsis.</p>

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<p>Garland's post illustrates once again where "fit" is so important and such an individual exploration for each student. Cathymee's daughter and my son's experiences at state honors colleges have been polar opposite to Garland's daughter, yet all three experiences at state honors colleges are factual and real for them and those like them. I am a grad of the "Life of the Mind" university, the University of Chicago which I enjoyed immensely. Yet with the very positive experiences of my son at Texas Tech Honors College, I have become a volunteer at high school college nights advocating Tech's Honors College for the students who may "fit".</p>

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<p>
[quote]
They were smart, but not interested in the intrinsic side of things, but rather grades and professions"
That could apply to many "elite" privates too.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That may well be true. Both my kids ended up in places where that was much less so, after careful research--again, a "fit" concern.</p>

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<p>Garland I feel bad for your dd. What school did this happen at? We all could benefit from knowing that this is a school to avoid picking for NMF scholarship. don't worry, there is nothing wrong with you saying which college this was. We are sure that you are speaking the truth -- your dd would have no reason to make this stuff up.</p>

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<p>Garland
Aquaintances who are profs in teh MA consortium and teach at one of the private schools in that consortium have said that they prefer teaching students from Hampshire as to a couple of the other schools that I won't name- because those students are more interested in the topics and are less afraid to make mistakes to learn, wheras some of the other students are less likely to ask questions other than "will this be on the test"?</p>

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<p>It is true that there can be all to much pre-professionalism at any number of top colleges.</p>

<p>But, as much as many on this board don't want to hear it, garland's story is not a rare case once you get away from the top publics and some special fit cases.</p>

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<p>"But, as much as many on this board don't want to hear it, garland's story is not a rare case once you get away from the top publics and some special fit cases."</p>

<p>The rarefied air of some elitism may be showing here. Garland's overall advice of "be careful" below the "top publics" regarding honors colleges is definitely words to the wise. However, I believe it is not an appropriate "if/then" leap to "garland's story is not a rare case once you get away from the top publics and some special fit cases". For instance, again at Texas Tech (hopefully not a "special fit" case), what sold dear old Dad on Tech's Honors College was our (my son and I's) chat with a Humanities professor whose only appointment was in the Honors College. He impressed me as a reflective, critical thinking fellow who enjoyed teaching undergraduates (having recently gotten a "refresher" masters degree (to add to his Phd) from St. Johns College - Annapolis/Sante Fe in the Classics). Dad helped influence son to sign up for this professor's freshman seminar on the Humanities (which then helped spark son toward critical self-evaluation of written arguments/positions in the classic "Life of the Mind" mode). Texas Tech's Honors College even offers a classic liberal arts (sans pre-professional) bachelors degree for Honors students only that would fit nicely at a University of Chicago or a St. John's. They are proud of their cours offerings that also include interdisciplinary coverage of science and humanities, for instance. The Honors College at the University of Mississippi is another example of an honors program that embraces the holistic and critical thinking approach to liberal arts. </p>

<p>Yes, there are numerous honors colleges below the "top publics" that could also be cited for their paucity of offerings (and honors students) who pursue "knowledge for knowledge sake". But let's not dismiss the below-top-tier publics with a broad brush. In fact, Dean Gary Bell at Tech's Honors College opines that the honors program models at the two top publics in Texas (University of Texas - Austin and Texas A&M) are deficient except for the well-deserved accolades for UT's Plan II honors program for the liberal arts. In a second post I will quote exactly what Dean Bell said in his critique of the University of North Texas' Honors Program. </p>

<p>The net net, be a careful consumer (and chooser) of honors colleges anywhere including the top publics, top privates, and universities in general.</p>

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<p>I only suggested that "garland's story is not a rare case" in response to the poster who wanted the name of the one school in her case. There are many like that. I'm sure not all and I couldn't begin to guess the percentage mix.</p>

<p>Oh, and I should have said special program or special circumstances or otherwise great fit.</p>

<p>"some elitism may be showing here" If you mean being desirous of the best possible education, I plead guilty.</p>

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<p>It seems to me that this discussion is heading in the general direction of the importance of "fit", a nugget of knowledge that I only picked up after visiting this website.</p>

<p>My son and I just returned from an overnight visit at a highly regarded top ranked engineering tech college that was high on his list. One campus visit was all it took to send that top ten engineering college to the very bottom of my sons list. Even though they may look great on paper and your student may dream about having a degree from that particular great State U with an Honors Program (even if its a NMF free ride deal), the highly regarded tech college or whatever college, if the glove doesn't fit......well, you know the rest. For us, it has been very important to make campus visits to get a general feel for the atmosphere. My son is doing overnight visits at every college that he is seriously considering. That doesn't necessarily mean an overnight visit will guarantee success in finding the right match, but in our case, I think it helps. </p>

<p>My son is NMF and the U of Florida with its generous scholarship program and Honors Program remains his number one choice out of 8 applications. We have visited UF twice and are going back for a third visit,including an overnight, in April. (Tulane possibly would have been his top choice if they still had mechanical and civil engineering programs)
Don't interpret this as my advocacy that UF is right for everybody. It may not fit your student. Everyone has to go through the visitation process to try to establish that proper "fit" for themselves.</p>

<p>Best wishes to all as we enter these final weeks of decision making!</p>

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<p>Daderoo - count me in guilty as charged of "best possible education" elitism as well whichever college/university the individual finds it (back to "fit"). </p>

<p>Everybody - Here are Dean Gary Bell's remarks that I noted in my last post: "Perhaps it is reasonable to begin with some disclaimers or general observations. Although I am from Texas Tech University, both a rival and a very different school" from Univeristy of North Texas (UNT). "I would not being to suggest that the construction of Honors at Tech necessarily need be the model for UNT. I do make references to Tech in my report because that is the context with which I am most familiar, but at the same time, please understand that I appreciate the real differences between the two institutions. I might also not that I have been evaluating universities for NCHC" (National Council of Honors Colleges? - if I google I have to start over) "for about a decade now, and many of my observations are drawn from this wider context." "Many schools do not have a major visible Honors effort. I find the UNT Honors operation superior to the UT (Plan II excepted) and the TAMU operations". UT is University of Texas - Austin and TAMU is Texas A&M.</p>

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<p>Jlauer--having ranted in depth about this school, I still feel that's not appropriate to name it. I think the problems my D had were not unique to that school. In retrospect, though, we should have seen them coming. For one thing, the school spent an inordinate amount of time detailing how it has changed from its previous "party school" rep. That should've done it right there.</p>

<p>But they had a program she liked a lot, threw a lot of money at her, and appealed to her anti-elitest instincts. Coming from a multi-racial, varied-income public high school, she thought that she'd be more at home at a public, not highly rated state school. It turned out to be almost lily-white, almost all fairly wealthy, and sported an inordinate interest in the "right" clothes, cars, etc. Nothing like her high school.</p>

<p>Obviously, the students at the LAC were as wealthy or more so as at University X, but their engagement with the world and with ideas, and their lack of social snobbism, was a 180 degree difference.</p>

<p>So, I reiterate, that this is why "fit" is crucial, at least for some kids. ANd it's clear tht Lonestardad's S has found it at Texas Tech. I have heard others say great things about that school, too.</p>

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<p>Garland
Did your D have the opportunity to overnight in the Honors Dorm at her ill fated choice or at least make a visit?I'm glad her transfer school has worked out as a better fit for her. "Fit" as so many have talked about is so ,so important.Thats the reason there are large state U's,small LAC's and every size in between.
Any advance work one can do to insure this is worthwhile..as a poster has said,they are going to be making their third visit to UF.Some may see three visits as excessive,but it might save grief and the need to transfer later on.</p>